Water Baptism NOT Necessary for Salvation!

[ALLFORHIM]

Yes, and No. Don’t ya hate that? A baptized person is clean before God, and if they died that minute, would have no stain of sin. A baptized person has also been justified, transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. However, Jesus expects that His disciples will “obey all that I have commanded”, so to the extent to which a baptized person fails to do so, such a one has been separated from that t state of grace by sin. Your turn!

You actually just defined a work-based salvation. Are you sure you want to make that statement?

 

[japhy]

You’ve obviously been water baptized. Are you saved?

The Catholic Christian answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words “saved” and “salvation” have in the Bible. (These meanings are found in the previous section, “Salvation: A Biblical Portrait.”)

Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of “saved” and “salvation” in scripture–Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved–He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin: So whoever is in Christ is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17)

Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the present experience, God’s power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin: Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (1 Cor 15:2)

Catholic Christians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ: How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. (Rom 5:9)

Source: The Catholic Response to “Are You Saved?”

 

[Gamera]

… A good example of baptism by desire is the story of Dismas, the good theif; Where his belief in the Lord, and his situation making it impossible for baptism (assuming he wasn’t baptized earlier before his crucifixion) by water, the Lord bestowed upon him the necessary graces for salvation, proved by His words,“Today you will be with me in paradise.”…

That WOULD be a good case for baptism of desire, except that Jesus was still alive. Doesn’t that mean that the Old Covenant had not yet been fulfilled by the new, and that baptism was not yet necessary for salvation? Wouldn’t the New Covenant, under which baptism is necessary for salvation, only have taken effect after the Resurrection? If not, when exactly did the New Covenant take effect? At the Last Supper? At Pentecost? Hmm, now I’m curious.

 

[Gamera]

You actually just defined a work-based salvation. Are you sure you want to make that statement?

No, that isn’t a “work-based salvation” at all. We are saved by grace (we cannot earn our way to heaven with good works), but we can lose that grace after we receive it, by sinning. Nobody said anything about “earning” heaven.

 

[Gamera]

You said “Baptism always saves” OK then, please tell me what percentage of the one true church is actually saved by water baptism.

100%. Confusion is coming from the use of the word “saved,” because it doesn’t mean the same thing to Catholics that it means to some other Christians. Baptism always confers grace. But Catholics believe that that baptismal grace can subsequently be lost, by sin, so a baptized person isn’t assured a seat in heaven — he can lose that grace by his own actions, by sinning, and lose the grace that he received at baptism.

 

[guanophore]

You actually just defined a work-based salvation. Are you sure you want to make that statement?

Now you’re makin’ stuff up!:tsktsk: I can’t explain things you made up in your head!

You should already know that a person cannot be saved by works, so there is no such a thing as “works based salvation”!

 

[guanophore]

That WOULD be a good case for baptism of desire, except that Jesus was still alive. Doesn’t that mean that the Old Covenant had not yet been fulfilled by the new, and that baptism was not yet necessary for salvation? Wouldn’t the New Covenant, under which baptism is necessary for salvation, only have taken effect after the Resurrection? If not, when exactly did the New Covenant take effect? At the Last Supper? At Pentecost? Hmm, now I’m curious.

Actually, that was one of the questions I had in posting this thread. What kind of baptism was Jesus giving, and why? I can’t believe He would fail to train His apostles right, and would wait until he was about to ascend to tell them to baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I am also remembering that “He breathed upon them and said receive the Holy Spirit” but that it was some time after that when they actually experienced that reception.

Surely John did not give a triune baptism, but did Jesus give it before His asension?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Now you’re makin’ stuff up!:tsktsk: I can’t explain things you made up in your head!

Well, maybe I just read more into your post then I should have

You should already know that a person cannot be saved by works, so there is no such a thing as “works based salvation”!

I agree:thumbsup:

 

[Nazianzen]

How can you believe that? You’re Catholic and that means you have to believe what your religion teaches. You’re not given the liberty to believe something else. If you don’t believe the Roman Catholic church then you’re not Catholic.

Taken directly from the RCC catechism.

Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and **the door **with gives access to the other sacraments. “through water baptism are you freed from sin and reborn as sons of God”; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission.

Hi, believers. Let’s see. There was the thief on the cross. There is the baptism of desire.

How about this from the CCC: “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament”(CCC 1259).

What I said was that Christ established baptism as the normal means of conferring sanctifying grace, but there are those who through no fault of their own are denied baptism. Perhaps I should have been a little more clear.

 

[Nazianzen]

You actually just defined a work-based salvation. Are you sure you want to make that statement?

Ahem, then exactly what do the verses I put forth in my last post replying to you mean?

Just as a reminder: Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 18:23-35, Luke 14:26, all of Matthew 25, and Romans 8:17

 

[MariaG]

You said “Baptism always saves” OK then, please tell me what percentage of the one true church is actually saved by water baptism.

Since I am not God, since I cannot read the future of what man’s free will and choices will bring, and since I cannot judge nor should not judge another, how on earth can that question be answered?

How can I know whether or not a baptized person will choose to continue to walk in the grace God has freely given them, or choose to reject that Grace through free will?

 

[MariaG]

That WOULD be a good case for baptism of desire, except that Jesus was still alive. Doesn’t that mean that the Old Covenant had not yet been fulfilled by the new, and that baptism was not yet necessary for salvation? Wouldn’t the New Covenant, under which baptism is necessary for salvation, only have taken effect after the Resurrection? If not, when exactly did the New Covenant take effect? At the Last Supper? At Pentecost? Hmm, now I’m curious.

Jesus died before the thief. And since Jesus, while fully man, was also fully God, He surely would have known that He would die before the thief on the Cross.

God bless,
Maria

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Ahem, then exactly what do the verses I put forth in my last post replying to you mean?

Just as a reminder: Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 18:23-35, Luke 14:26, all of Matthew 25, and Romans 8:17

Hi,

I went through all of the scripture you presented here and Im not sure what point you are trying to make It all still boils down to faith you either have it or you dont and if you do then you will obey Christ out of love not out of obligation.

 

[believers]

Hi, believers. Let’s see. There was the thief on the cross. There is the baptism of desire.

How about this from the CCC: “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament”(CCC 1259).

What I said was that Christ established baptism as the normal means of conferring sanctifying grace, but there are those who through no fault of their own are denied baptism. Perhaps I should have been a little more clear.

Desire?! He was saved because he believed that Jesus was the Son of God. Just like Peter confessed. It was counted it to him for righteousness. He was blessed. It was his belief in his heart by his confession.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[believers]

Jesus died before the thief. And since Jesus, while fully man, was also fully God, He surely would have known that He would die before the thief on the Cross.

God bless,
Maria

He was God but fully man. Jesus did not walk around like God.

 

[Gamera]

Desire?! He was saved because he believed that Jesus was the Son of God. Just like Peter confessed. It was counted it to him for righteousness. He was blessed. It was his belief in his heart by his confession.

Do you understand what baptism of desire is?

 

[believers]

Since I am not God, since I cannot read the future of what man’s free will and choices will bring, and since I cannot judge nor should not judge another, how on earth can that question be answered?

God said “baptism now saves” and I believe God. Your church has taken John’s baptism and turned it into more than it is. It was the baptism of repentance. The Jews were baptized UNTO repentance. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire. Water baptism is nothing more than the putting away of filth of the flesh.

Jesus said… The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Believe the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Repentance leads to the answer of a good conscience toward God.

How can I know whether or not a baptized person will choose to continue to walk in the grace God has freely given them, or choose to reject that Grace through free will?

A truly baptized person is saved.

 

[believers]

Do you understand what baptism of desire is?

No I don’t. Please explain using scripture.

 

[MariaG]

He was God but fully man. Jesus did not walk around like God.

Are you saying that Jesus did not know what was to come?

 

[believers]

Actually, that was one of the questions I had in posting this thread. What kind of baptism was Jesus giving, and why? I can’t believe He would fail to train His apostles right, and would wait until he was about to ascend to tell them to baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I am also remembering that “He breathed upon them and said receive the Holy Spirit” but that it was some time after that when they actually experienced that reception.

Surely John did not give a triune baptism, but did Jesus give it before His asension?

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. That couldn’t have happened until He died and was resurrected.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.