Water Bottles durring Mass

[paramedicgirl]

Nobody here is doing any of this in Church - we’re not walking up to people at Mass and embarrassing them in public.

We’re doing it here on a computer Bulletin Board, where people can learn from it in the privacy and anonymity of their own homes, where they can quietly and anonymously learn that this is impolite behaviour, and now they can decide whether to correct themselves or not, but at least now they know how they appear to others, even though no one ever actually says anything to them at Mass.

Well said JM!

 

[Jason_Hurd]

Nobody here is doing any of this in Church - we’re not walking up to people at Mass and embarrassing them in public.

We’re doing it here on a computer Bulletin Board, where people can learn from it in the privacy and anonymity of their own homes, where they can quietly and anonymously learn that this is impolite behaviour, and now they can decide whether to correct themselves or not, but at least now they know how they appear to others, even though no one ever actually says anything to them at Mass.

It doesn’t matter whether you are doing this in church or not. The potential sin lies not in walking up to someone and embarassing them, but rather in the attitude that 1) I know the reasons that person is behaving the way they are and they are not valid reasons, and 2) I am qualified to admonish that person because I know better than they how they should be behaving. It is this attitude that can so easily turn into full-fledged pride and damn us for eternity if it is not recognised and suppressed. I agree that the Mass is a place of reverence and that the utmost decorum must be observed. However, I again submit that we poor sinners should remove the planks from our own eyes before criticising the speck in our neighbors’.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

This was a big thread about a year or so ago. I say no. Water bottles do not belong in the church. Every parish has a water fountain. If you must, step out of the church and get a drink. Sometimes the incense bothers me pretty bad. I just sit in the back, and if I have to leave, I do. I didn’t read this whole thread, but I know some people just don’t see anything wrong with not refraining from refreshment for an hour a week.

 

[paramedicgirl]

It doesn’t matter whether you are doing this in church or not. The potential sin lies not in walking up to someone and embarassing them, but rather in the attitude that 1) I know the reasons that person is behaving the way they are and they are not valid reasons, and 2) I am qualified to admonish that person because I know better than they how they should be behaving. It is this attitude that can so easily turn into full-fledged pride and damn us for eternity if it is not recognised and suppressed. I agree that the Mass is a place of reverence and that the utmost decorum must be observed. However, I again submit that we poor sinners should remove the planks from our own eyes before criticising the speck in our neighbors’.

On the same token, isn’t it rather stubborn of the defenders of water bottles in Mass to never let up on those of us who don’t think it’s appropriate? Is their stubborness not an attack on us?

 

[Jason_Hurd]

On the same token, isn’t it rather stubborn of the defenders of water bottles in Mass to never let up on those of us who don’t think it’s appropriate? Is their stubborness not an attack on us?

By no means. It is merely a gentle reminder that we are all sinners in God’s sight, and that the state of grace is a precious thing, difficult to obtain and sadly easy to lose. We should avoid occasions of sin at all costs, especially those occasions that could potentially lure us into one of the seven capital sins, and I maintain that we are in peril of pride when we presume to educate full-grown people about behavior which is not sinful.

 

[paramedicgirl]

By no means. It is merely a gentle reminder that we are all sinners in God’s sight, and that the state of grace is a precious thing, difficult to obtain and sadly easy to lose. We should avoid occasions of sin at all costs, especially those occasions that could potentially lure us into one of the seven capital sins, and I maintain that we are in peril of pride when we presume to educate full-grown people about behavior which is not sinful.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that’s it’s a sin for us to stand our ground about why we think water bottles are not appropriate in Mass, but it is perfectly OK for those of us who wish to defend their use to go ahead and do so?

 

[Alison]

Hi there,
yes water is allowed, it does not break the fast. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone bring water bottles (except in the choir loft of course) but I think that we can’t be too quick to judge those who bring water to church. They might really need it. Love,
-Alison

 

[Jason_Hurd]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that’s it’s a sin for us to stand our ground about why we think water bottles are not appropriate in Mass, but it is perfectly OK for those of us who wish to defend their use to go ahead and do so?

I’m sorry to have to correct you, but yes, you are wrong. I did not say it was a sin for people to have the opinion that water bottles are out of place at Mass. I did not even say it was a sin to admonish those who drink from them at Mass. I said that the attitude which prompts us to behave this way could easily lead us into sin; namely the sin of pride, which is mortal. Such occasions should be avoided if we wish to remain in a state of grace.

 

[baltobetsy]

Betsy, believe me I understand your concerns, and truth to tell, I am pretty big on etiquette and decorum myself. However, may I respectfully point out that once again I think you have missed the point. If God is upset by the actions of our fellow worshippers, then that is a matter for Him to address with them Himself. It is not our place to be the arbiters of proper behavior during Mass; that is for the pastor of the parish in question to address. The reason I am rather strong about this is that I consider we are doing grave danger to our souls when we presume to know the inmost needs and motivations of another person. Better to avoid indulging our desire for order and say a quick ‘get thee behind me, Satan’ rather than make assumptions about others which can so easily lead to pride, thus endangering our eternal fate.

jmcrae, you make a good point about education. However, again I respectfully submit that this is not our place. There is too much peril to our souls involved in lecturing others for us to indulge the desire lightly. Setting a good example by our own behavior and suppressing our desire to admonish what is, after all, not a sin will remove this peril.

We are not presuming to know any individual’s inmost needs and motivations. We are talking about minimum standards of behavior in public. Whether a certain person is able to meet those standards for whatever reason is indeed none of our business. But if through simple ignorance someone violates these standards, we do a favor, and in fact, a spiritual work of mercy, to them by pointing out what the standards are. And a forum such as this, which spares any individual the embarrassment of a personal confrontation, is the ideal venue.

Betsy

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Don’t most churches have water fountains? Ours does…10 feet from the church doors. If not, then bring some water and leave it in your car and then as soon as Mass is completed…you will have your water waiting for you in your car. Oh, yes…it might get hot there…or might freeze in the winter time…get real folks…we are talking ABOUT AN HOUR OR SO OF YOUR TIME. If you cannot be away from water for that length of time…there is a problem. I have taken a cross country BUS TRIP and have had to go without water for a period of time…get control over yourselves…

:heart:Blyss

 

[boppaid]

But how about God taking notice of them? God who allows us to be present at the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary, and understands that our sip of water is at least temporarily more important than He is.

Then I would say let God take notice. I, for one, don’t think he’ll be upset. But regardless, that’s up to God.

 

[boppaid]

Betsy, believe me I understand your concerns, and truth to tell, I am pretty big on etiquette and decorum myself. However, may I respectfully point out that once again I think you have missed the point. If God is upset by the actions of our fellow worshippers, then that is a matter for Him to address with them Himself. It is not our place to be the arbiters of proper behavior during Mass; that is for the pastor of the parish in question to address. The reason I am rather strong about this is that I consider we are doing grave danger to our souls when we presume to know the inmost needs and motivations of another person. Better to avoid indulging our desire for order and say a quick ‘get thee behind me, Satan’ rather than make assumptions about others which can so easily lead to pride, thus endangering our eternal fate.

jmcrae, you make a good point about education. However, again I respectfully submit that this is not our place. There is too much peril to our souls involved in lecturing others for us to indulge the desire lightly. Setting a good example by our own behavior and suppressing our desire to admonish what is, after all, not a sin will remove this peril.

:clapping: Jason, that was indeed my point. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you.

 

[Jason_Hurd]

We are not presuming to know any individual’s inmost needs and motivations. We are talking about minimum standards of behavior in public. Whether a certain person is able to meet those standards for whatever reason is indeed none of our business. But if through simple ignorance someone violates these standards, we do a favor, and in fact, a spiritual work of mercy, to them by pointing out what the standards are. And a forum such as this, which spares any individual the embarrassment of a personal confrontation, is the ideal venue.

Betsy

This is exactly my point. We cannot know whether people are acting out of need or ignorance, and to assume that they are indeed behaving in a certain manner out of ignorance is presumptuous on our part, a presumption which, if not killed, will separate us from Christ.

 

[boppaid]

I sincerely doubt God approves of all the kids eating during Mass or the mess of crumbs I’ve seen left behind, that were still there a week later. Apparently God isn’t going to intervene so someone else needs to.

Well if God won’t intervene, I feel it’s safe to say maybe we shouldn’t either.

 

[boppaid]

This was a big thread about a year or so ago. I say no. Water bottles do not belong in the church. Every parish has a water fountain. If you must, step out of the church and get a drink. Sometimes the incense bothers me pretty bad. I just sit in the back, and if I have to leave, I do. I didn’t read this whole thread, but I know some people just don’t see anything wrong with not refraining from refreshment for an hour a week.

See, to me it’s worse to get up out of your seat in the middle of mass than simply reach into your purse to get your water bottle. But that’s just me.

 

[boppaid]

On the same token, isn’t it rather stubborn of the defenders of water bottles in Mass to never let up on those of us who don’t think it’s appropriate? Is their stubborness not an attack on us?

I see your point. But actually it’s not the water bottle issue, specifically, that is making us stubbornly hold on to the debate. It is the judmentalness…a much larger issue. And I wish you wouldn’t feel attacked. I don’t take it personally when you don’t agree with me. The issue is judging others based on personal preference. I don’t think it’s right, you think it’s warranted. THere is nothing personal here and we may never agree. If you are feeling attacked, maybe that’s a sign that you need to step away from the debate. I don’t believe it’s anyone on this board’s intention to attack you. We are all Christians here, who are simply in disagreement about something.

 

[boppaid]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that’s it’s a sin for us to stand our ground about why we think water bottles are not appropriate in Mass, but it is perfectly OK for those of us who wish to defend their use to go ahead and do so?

I think he’s saying excesss pride and self-righteousness is a sin in the eyes of God. Whether water bottles in church are a sin or not I don’t know. I guess that’s the crux of this issue.

 

[baltobetsy]

This is exactly my point. We cannot know whether people are acting out of need or ignorance, and to assume that they are indeed behaving in a certain manner out of ignorance is presumptuous on our part, a presumption which, if not killed, will separate us from Christ.

If you saw someone walking down the hall with toilet paper stuck to his shoe, would you tell him or let him go on looking foolish?

That’s the point of the Spiritual Works of Mercy, one of which is to instruct the ignorant.

It’s much better to assume that someone is innocently unaware of a problem (ignorant) than to attribute malice.

I do not know whether the people I see with water bottles are in genuine need or if they are ignorant of the norms of good behavior, or if they don’t give a hoot. That’s why I don’t say anything to them or give it much thought when I see it. But when the topic comes up for discussion in a general way, I will speak clearly about my belief that good manners precludes satisfying our bodily desires during Mass. And if people ask why, I will elaborate. This does not mean I judge individuals when I see it.

Betsy

 

[boppaid]

Don’t most churches have water fountains? Ours does…10 feet from the church doors. If not, then bring some water and leave it in your car and then as soon as Mass is completed…you will have your water waiting for you in your car. Oh, yes…it might get hot there…or might freeze in the winter time…get real folks…we are talking ABOUT AN HOUR OR SO OF YOUR TIME. If you cannot be away from water for that length of time…there is a problem. I have taken a cross country BUS TRIP and have had to go without water for a period of time…get control over yourselves…

:heart:Blyss

Blyss, you are certainly right. It can be possible to go an hour without water. However, I still haven’t seen anything to indicate to me WHY one should HAVE TO go without water ? It’s not a sin. It’s being disruptive is only a matter of opinion. I guess I would say that if it were something sinful, then I’d have to completely agree with you…go the hour, no big deal. But I honestly don’t see a problem with people having some water in mass. I’d MUCH rather someone do that than crawl across me in a pew and leave mass to go to a drinking fountain. Not THAT is disruptive! But that, too, is simply my opinion and I would never try to enforce the “no drinking fountain during mass” rule on anyone either.

 

[Jason_Hurd]

If you saw someone walking down the hall with toilet paper stuck to his shoe, would you tell him or let him go on looking foolish?

That’s the point of the Spiritual Works of Mercy, one of which is to instruct the ignorant.

It’s much better to assume that someone is innocently unaware of a problem (ignorant) than to attribute malice.

I do not know whether the people I see with water bottles are in genuine need or if they are ignorant of the norms of good behavior, or if they don’t give a hoot. That’s why I don’t say anything to them or give it much thought when I see it. But when the topic comes up for discussion in a general way, I will speak clearly about my belief that good manners precludes satisfying our bodily desires during Mass. And if people ask why, I will elaborate. This does not mean I judge individuals when I see it.

Betsy

Forgive me Betsy, but again there is presumption here; namely the assumption that the satisfaction of bodily desires is the reason for the water drinking. We do not know whether this is the reason people are drinking. If I am ignorant of my neighbor’s reasons for behaving in a certain way, I will restrain myself from admonishment in the faith that God will bring him to the proper state of mind if need be. But it is not my place to make assumptions about my neighbor’s reasons for behavior. I really shouldn’t even be thinking about them at all.