Water Bottles durring Mass

[baltobetsy]

Forgive me Betsy, but again there is presumption here; namely the assumption that the satisfaction of bodily desires is the reason for the water drinking. We do not know whether this is the reason people are drinking. If I am ignorant of my neighbor’s reasons for behaving in a certain way, I will restrain myself from admonishment in the faith that God will bring him to the proper state of mind if need be. But it is not my place to make assumptions about my neighbor’s reasons for behavior. I really shouldn’t even be thinking about them at all.

There are any number of valid reasons for taking water during Mass. I am not addressing any of them OR saying there is any way to know what the reason is for ANYONE to take a drink. What I am addressing is the general norm of good behavior: When none of the myriad good reasons for taking a drink exists, and when the taking of said drink is merely out of habit or desire for personal comfort, THEN AND ONLY THEN is it inappropriate. But that is the general norm, which is the topic of discussion.

Betsy

 

[paramedicgirl]

Blyss, you are certainly right. It can be possible to go an hour without water.** However, I still haven’t seen anything to indicate to me WHY one should HAVE TO go without water ?** It’s not a sin. It’s being disruptive is only a matter of opinion. I guess I would say that if it were something sinful, then I’d have to completely agree with you…go the hour, no big deal. But I honestly don’t see a problem with people having some water in mass. I’d MUCH rather someone do that than crawl across me in a pew and leave mass to go to a drinking fountain. Not THAT is disruptive! But that, too, is simply my opinion and I would never try to enforce the “no drinking fountain during mass” rule on anyone either.

Here’s my take on why one should go an hour without water. I’m not saying that you have to do this, only stating why I think it’s pleasing to God:

Sacrifice versus self indulgence. God loves it when we sacrifice for His sake. We can never sacrifice enough to make reparation for all our sins, and each little sacrifice we make and remember to offer up will help to repay the tremendous debt of sin that we accumulate on this earth. If going without water for one measly hour while assisting at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass can help me on my road to salvation, then I am taking that road.

 

[mercygate]

I’m sorry, but I’m really surprised and disappointed at the scorn given by some of you in this post. It is just not right to judge other people’s “needs” in this matter…especially when you are not in their situation or position.

I’ve been a music minister / director for 8 years, and sometimes water is an absolute necessity for a soloist during mass. This is not an issue of “thirst” or “hydration.” It is about being able to perform the ministry properly. Many times, water is necessary to get rid of that nasty little dry tickle in the back of your throat which comes up right in the middle of a song, which can completely eliminate your ability to even talk, much less sing. This happens often when you are singing every song at the liturgy. Those of you who choose to scorn this, but have never been a cantor or soloist, are really in no valid position to debate this.

So, yes…there “is” an immediate necessity “at times.” Is it overdone? Sure, but it’s very hard to say where the line is for other people (unless they are being distracting to others).

This is just one example, but it is not fair for me to pretend to know what other issues other people might have. It’s not my place, and neither is it yours (unless you are the pastor, worship director, or of some other position of authority at your parish, and you happen to notice that the issue is being abused or that it is causing distraction to others.)

Yes, it’s quite ironic that before bottled water was available in our society, this seemed to be a non-issue…However, it is very disappointing that some of you are so critical towards those who may actually need a sip of water for “whatever” reason. You simply don’t know what their reasons are.

That being said, many people are bringing water in (even musicians), who are doing it out of habit, rather than a necessity (myself included), and maybe there’s something we can do to remind them (me) that it should be used only when necessary. More thought should be given towards how to address “this” issue, rather than so much scorn from some of you.

I’d rather start a post on why people allow their infants to bring “baby rattles” into mass! HOW can they think this is o.k.???

God Bless.

All of this points out the wisdom of having the choir loft up at the back of the church.

 

[mercygate]

There are any number of valid reasons for taking water during Mass. I am not addressing any of them OR saying there is any way to know what the reason is for ANYONE to take a drink. What I am addressing is the general norm of good behavior: When none of the myriad good reasons for taking a drink exists, and when the taking of said drink is merely out of habit or desire for personal comfort, THEN AND ONLY THEN is it inappropriate. But that is the general norm, which is the topic of discussion.

Betsy

You’re talking about common sense, mutual respect and good manners. I guess you’re not speaking the native language.

As for the person who said, “what’s wrong with it if it’s not sinful?” I give up. If it isn’t a sin, then it’s OK? Is it OK to operate at the least level of excellence? Is it a sin not to wash your dishes or make your bed? No. Is it desirable? Of course not. Ditto for water bottles in Church – moreover, in the cases Betsy notes, I could actually make a case that it DOES participate in the nature of sin because it disregards the Mass.
I refer that questioner to the canons and the documents of the Second Vatican Council.

 

[boppaid]

Here’s my take on why one should go an hour without water. I’m not saying that you have to do this, only stating why I think it’s pleasing to God:

Sacrifice versus self indulgence. God loves it when we sacrifice for His sake. We can never sacrifice enough to make reparation for all our sins, and each little sacrifice we make and remember to offer up will help to repay the tremendous debt of sin that we accumulate on this earth. If going without water for one measly hour while assisting at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass can help me on my road to salvation, then I am taking that road.

Okay. Thank you for explaining. I agree that sacrifice is a wonderful thing. I also appreciate that you aren’t telling me what to sacrifice. I think we’re closer to the same page now. One more question, though, and it’s kind of a personal one. You said you could never sacrifice enough. Does that mean that you never do anything “comfortable” or “enjoyable” because you can never sacrifice enough? Where do you draw the line? I’m not being sarcastic in the least…I promise. I am just wondering.

 

[boppaid]

As for the person who said, “what’s wrong with it if it’s not sinful?” I give up. If it isn’t a sin, then it’s OK? Is it OK to operate at the least level of excellence? Is it a sin not to wash your dishes or make your bed? No. Is it desirable? Of course not. Ditto for water bottles in Church – moreover, in the cases Betsy notes, I could actually make a case that it DOES participate in the nature of sin because it disregards the Mass.
I refer that questioner to the canons and the documents of the Second Vatican Council.

Okay. I’m on the verge of giving up myself. deep breath I’m not saying “if it’s not a ‘sin’ it’s okay”. I’m saying that whether it is impolite, disrespectful, or disruptive is highly subjective. Personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. We do have a moral obligation to pass judgement on others falling into sin. Since this isn’t a sin, it is mearly being judgemental and self-righteous. I guess that’s my point. I’m not sure if I explained it clearly or not myself.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Okay. Thank you for explaining. I agree that sacrifice is a wonderful thing. I also appreciate that you aren’t telling me what to sacrifice. I think we’re closer to the same page now. One more question, though, and it’s kind of a personal one. You said you could never sacrifice enough. Does that mean that you never do anything “comfortable” or “enjoyable” because you can never sacrifice enough? Where do you draw the line? I’m not being sarcastic in the least…I promise. I am just wondering.

What I mean is that it is impossible to for us mortals to equal the sacrifice of Jesus. It is by God’s grace that we merit heaven, not by any merit of our own.

 

[Faith1960]

Well if God won’t intervene, I feel it’s safe to say maybe we shouldn’t either.

Really? What do you think God would do if someone at Mass was sitting there, talking to the person in front of them about something totally inappropriate and crass that could be heard by others - maybe a crude guy commenting to an attractive woman that she has a nice (fill in the blank)? How about someone who took his/her shoes off and sat Indian style or maybe put their bare feet up on the missal rack? How about someone who sees their next door neighbor, a neighbor with whom he/she’d been feuding with for months, at Mass, and instead of offering the sign of peace, flipped them off? What is it that God would do and of He’d do nothing, should we all accept any behavior that may possible occur at Mass, appropriate or not?

 

[mommyof4]

You guys are still having the water bottle wars?!

Wow - I unsubscribed from that debate when it hit page 2!

 

[jmcrae]

It doesn’t matter whether you are doing this in church or not. The potential sin lies not in walking up to someone and embarassing them, but rather in the attitude that 1) I know the reasons that person is behaving the way they are and they are not valid reasons, and 2) I am qualified to admonish that person because I know better than they how they should be behaving. It is this attitude that can so easily turn into full-fledged pride and damn us for eternity if it is not recognised and suppressed. I agree that the Mass is a place of reverence and that the utmost decorum must be observed. However, I again submit that we poor sinners should remove the planks from our own eyes before criticising the speck in our neighbors’.

I think you’re over-reacting. Is Ward Lock (A Ladies’ Guide to Writing Nice Letters) in Hell? Is Emily Post in Hell? Both did a great deal to civilize the behaviour of their times, and both used examples of wrong behaviour to make their point.

It’s not a sin to tell someone, “Hey, that kind of behaviour is not acceptable in public.” Indeed, it may well be a work of mercy (instructing the ignorant) if they didn’t know before.

For people who know they’re being rude in public and don’t care, or for people who have some kind of medical reason to do these things, fine, whatever. They don’t have to read along. Nobody’s “judging” them in the sense of condemning them to Hell.

But we all have a right to judge the behaviour of others as to whether it’s appropriate for ourselves to imitate, and whether it’s comfortable to be around - that’s not a sin; that’s a requirement for being in a social setting where there are strangers, where there has to be a common norm of good behaviour. We have to know what those norms are so that we can follow them, and be able to make friends and have a positive influence on the group as a whole.

In order for people to know them, people need to discuss them and make them known.

If everyone’s impression of me is that I’m a rude and selfish boor because I chew gum, guzzle my water bottle, and let my kids run wild, I may be wondering why nobody wants anything to do with me at the coffee hour, and why the priest doesn’t return my calls when I offer to teach Sunday School.

Only by finding out that these behaviours are perceived by the other attendees at Mass as rude and selfish can I then change my behaviour and become perceived as the person of faith and good morals that I am.

Makes sense now?

 

[KathleenElsie]

This is exactly my point. We cannot know whether people are acting out of need or ignorance, and to assume that they are indeed behaving in a certain manner out of ignorance is presumptuous on our part, a presumption which, if not killed, will separate us from Christ.

So we are leave people to their ill manners on the ourside chance that they need the water? We can try to explain to others that the Mass is not the place for food and drink unless it the Body and Blood of Christ.

Are we not called upon to educate the future generations of Christians?

To admonish and teach is not to judge. And lets please all admit very few people really need that drink of water while at Mass.

 

[mercygate]

Okay. I’m on the verge of giving up myself. deep breath I’m not saying “if it’s not a ‘sin’ it’s okay”. I’m saying that whether it is impolite, disrespectful, or disruptive is highly subjective. Personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. We do have a moral obligation to pass judgement on others falling into sin. Since this isn’t a sin, it is mearly being judgemental and self-righteous. I guess that’s my point. I’m not sure if I explained it clearly or not myself.

We live in a culture where the is common agreement about what is respectful. It is not all that subjective. But go ahead: judgmental and self-righteous: I can live with the title. At least I base my judgment on some kind of rational standard – or did you not read the citations from the Code of Canon Law and Sacrosanctum Concilium?

Again: I contend that detraction from the Sacred Liturgy definitely skirts an offense against the first commandment.

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

Forgive me Betsy, but again there is presumption here; namely the assumption that the satisfaction of bodily desires is the reason for the water drinking. We do not know whether this is the reason people are drinking. If I am ignorant of my neighbor’s reasons for behaving in a certain way, I will restrain myself from admonishment in the faith that God will bring him to the proper state of mind if need be. But it is not my place to make assumptions about my neighbor’s reasons for behavior. I really shouldn’t even be thinking about them at all.

Thanks for explaining this so eloquently. Big thumbs up!

---

The Ms. Manners argument just doesn’t work here. The proper etiquette surrounding taking a sip of water is something that varies wildly from culture to culture. Most of us live in a country where there is no longer any “melting pot” or uniform culture, but rather a mix of many cultures and different frames of reference. Our rules of proper ettiquete are not the same as they once were, and are much less numerous.

Besides which, it’s not very effective to broach an issue of etiquette by insulting the offender, which was the tactic chosen by several people in this thread. That’s not very polite in any culture.

The only solid evidence I’ve seen so far from the “drinking water during mass is morally wrong” side was post 115.

This post actually finished convincing me that drinking water during mass for trivial reasons would be inappropriate. I have never had a water bottle in mass, and felt that it would not be a good idea for me to do so. Now I see a concrete reason for my feeling. Thanks to the poster who provided this reference.

However, I still believe that there are many circumstances in which it would be appropriate for someone to take a sip of water. I also do not believe it is appropriate to assume anything about someone who takes a sip of water in mass. (Or to belittle/insult someone for failing to follow the norms in any other way.) As Mr. Hurd was saying, we just don’t know their reasons, nor do we know what God thinks of their reasons.

 

[jmcrae]

The Ms. Manners argument just doesn’t work here. The proper etiquette surrounding taking a sip of water is something that varies wildly from culture to culture. Most of us live in a country where there is no longer any “melting pot” or uniform culture, but rather a mix of many cultures and different frames of reference.

I don’t know of any culture on earth where bringing a water bottle in to a formal ceremony and drinking out of it during the ceremony would be considered acceptable behaviour. If anything, they are even stricter about this kind of thing in other countries than we are here. (In some countries, they wouldn’t just say mean things about you in a message forum - there are actual legal penalties such as fines, jail, and whippings.)

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

I don’t know of any culture on earth where bringing a water bottle in to a formal ceremony and drinking out of it during the ceremony would be considered acceptable behaviour. If anything, they are even stricter about this kind of thing in other countries than we are here. (In some countries, they wouldn’t just say mean things about you in a message forum - there are actual legal penalties such as fines, jail, and whippings.)

I lived in Central America at one point. Drinking water during a formal ceremony wasn’t frowned on at all (at least not where I was). But down there in many circles it is rude to sip water during dinner. The reasoning is that if you want to fill up on water, you’re insulting your host’s cooking.

It just occurred to me that this might be an age difference as well as a cultural difference. I’m 24. My mother is in her fifties. I asked her if she would be offended to see someone take a sip from a water bottle during a formal ceremony. At first she was shocked and said, “Why would anybody be offended by that?” Then she thought for a minute and said, “You know, I guess that would have offended me twenty years ago, but not anymore.” She said she was very taken aback at first when she returned to university in the early 1980s and saw the students sipping water during lectures.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

It just occurred to me that this might be an age difference as well as a cultural difference. I’m 24. My mother is in her fifties. I asked her if she would be offended to see someone take a sip from a water bottle during a formal ceremony. At first she was shocked and said, “Why would anybody be offended by that?” Then she thought for a minute and said, “You know, I guess that would have offended me twenty years ago, but not anymore.” She said she was very taken aback at first when she returned to university in the early 1980s and saw the students sipping water during lectures.

I am in my 50s also…late 50s and while I wouldn’t be ***offended ***by someone’s poor taste in drinking from a water bottle at Mass…I would have to question in my own mind their lack of good judgment. I wonder if what your mother was actually thinking was…“You know, I guess I would have been surprised by that 20 years ago, but not anymore” …because I feel that way myself.

:heart:Blyss

 

[boppaid]

What I mean is that it is impossible to for us mortals to equal the sacrifice of Jesus. It is by God’s grace that we merit heaven, not by any merit of our own.

I get what you’re saying. I agree with that. I should add that my husband agrees with you in this debate!!

 

[paramedicgirl]

I get what you’re saying. I agree with that. I should add that my husband agrees with you in this debate!!

Oh no! You must be pretty mad at him right now, then.

 

[boppaid]

I don’t know of any culture on earth where bringing a water bottle in to a formal ceremony and drinking out of it during the ceremony would be considered acceptable behaviour. If anything, they are even stricter about this kind of thing in other countries than we are here. (In some countries, they wouldn’t just say mean things about you in a message forum - there are actual legal penalties such as fines, jail, and whippings.)

I think within OUR culture bringing water to a formal ceremony is acceptable. I cannot recall any ceremony where water was unacceptable. I’ve seen wedding ceremonies with water, I’ve seen protestant church services, I’ve seen college classes allow water, I’ve seen water bottles at graduation ceremonies. Honestly, can you think of a ceremony that doesn’t allow water?

 

[boppaid]

Really? What do you think God would do if someone at Mass was sitting there, talking to the person in front of them about something totally inappropriate and crass that could be heard by others - maybe a crude guy commenting to an attractive woman that she has a nice (fill in the blank)? How about someone who took his/her shoes off and sat Indian style or maybe put their bare feet up on the missal rack? How about someone who sees their next door neighbor, a neighbor with whom he/she’d been feuding with for months, at Mass, and instead of offering the sign of peace, flipped them off? What is it that God would do and of He’d do nothing, should we all accept any behavior that may possible occur at Mass, appropriate or not?

I’m sorry. I was kind of joking with my previous comment about if God wasn’t going to jump in then we would! I should have put a j-k next to it.