L
Lance
Guest
Very uncharitable of you Muslim. Personal attacks are not allowed. Unless you can backup what you said you owe cestusdei an appology.
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E
Emad
Guest
Islam and Muslims are mentioned in the Quran plenty of times. Even in the chapters that were revealed in Mecca, the first 13 years of Prophethood in which there was no fighting at all.
E
Eden
Guest
Ishmael's child:
What are you talking about? Christ* is* God.
J
John_of_Woking
Guest
Exactly! God’s power is so absolute. He is so powerful that even His Transcendence is not compromised by the Incarnation. A Mystery so Sublime. It is painful for the ears of the Muslim but it is true nontheless…“The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”
J
John_of_Woking
Guest
Ishmael's child:
Nonetheless…“The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.” Peace
I would rather die a slow and painful death than become a muslim. I respect and love all muslims but the idea of co-ercive conversion is hideous. So yes I would rather die praising the Triune God under the skies of Arabia than betray my conscience. This is something Islamic countries should heed…The Freedom to worship Christ and not kill people for doing so, c.f. Pakistan, Iran, Syria e.t.c.I just want to say that’s so cool WAAAAAAAAW!!!
Many subjects here about Islam , all Forum’s visitors will feel how Islam has widely spread .
that’s Muhammad religion , you will find it in everywhere and in widely spread.
Holy Qur’an Surah 61. The Ranks, Battle Array 8. Their intention is to extinguish Allah.s Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
the question does what happened in Arabia is happening in whole World now?, I mean all people ask & talk about it ( Islam ) and that is what Arabs did before became muslims…
I want clear answer
Nonetheless…“The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.” Peace
C
cestusdei
Guest
John,
I think they will accomodate that slow and painful death. That seems to be the alternative they offer.
I think they will accomodate that slow and painful death. That seems to be the alternative they offer.
E
Emad
Guest
John of Woking:
060.008
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
060.009
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
Islam doesn’t teach us to kill anyone because they are Christian.
060.008
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
060.009
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
R
rlg94086
Guest
Is this the justification for strapping bombs to one’s self and blowing up a mosque or a group of innocent “infidels” at a restaurant?
Emad:
G
Godfrey
Guest
I do not personally believe in Islam, but I have tried in the past to give it an honest and open look, if only to try to understand its beliefs.
I read the Qur’an, talked to dozens of Muslims at length over a period of several years, etc
Some of the comments here are disturbing and rather ignorant.
I think the Bible said a fool speaks everything in his heart.
Maybe step back and look at the emotional issues regarding terrorist fundamentalist Muslims, the beliefs of Islam itself, and how we as Chritians are supposed to approach those of other beliefs (I don’t think insulting them was one I read or was taught) and pose any questions or comments in an intelligent way.
I do think there are areas where Islam and Christianity meet ethically - but I feel the doctrinal/spiritual differences will forever be at odds. One simply follows Islam for their reasons or not.
Islam calls itself a religion - being a believer in Ye’shua the Messiah is not religion - it is believing in the ONE FAITH.
I do not personally see Islam as superior in any way.
There are many things about it I find admirable and many other things that I find lacking.
Having said that, there are many Christians and Muslims that are poor examples of their beliefs. Anyone knows somebody can give lipservice to an ideal and not produce the real fruits.
I would be a friend to any Muslim that wanted to be my friend (and I am )and would not condemn them for their religion, but I would certainly have a reasonable DIALOGUE with them anytime they wanted - perhaps after we got done tossing the frisbee, going for lunch or whatever).
We are told by the Messiah to love all people, we are to pray for those who persecute us, we are not commanded to be offensive for the sake of the Good News, but rather be its ambasadors.
My apologies to the Muslims here for the ignorance and cruelty of some.
While I do not believe Islam is the true religion, I will always be happy to talk to you as openly and honestly as possible - even if it is to disagree.
It has actually been a joy to talk with Muslims, especially over the past 10 years and I have learned some things about Islam (but confess there is more I could know).
One of my best friends I have known for 25 yrs is a devout Muslim and he and I butt heads in a friendly way and are totally open to discussion - we also just go and do things as friends
Salaam/Shalom/Peace
I read the Qur’an, talked to dozens of Muslims at length over a period of several years, etc
Some of the comments here are disturbing and rather ignorant.
I think the Bible said a fool speaks everything in his heart.
Maybe step back and look at the emotional issues regarding terrorist fundamentalist Muslims, the beliefs of Islam itself, and how we as Chritians are supposed to approach those of other beliefs (I don’t think insulting them was one I read or was taught) and pose any questions or comments in an intelligent way.
I do think there are areas where Islam and Christianity meet ethically - but I feel the doctrinal/spiritual differences will forever be at odds. One simply follows Islam for their reasons or not.
Islam calls itself a religion - being a believer in Ye’shua the Messiah is not religion - it is believing in the ONE FAITH.
I do not personally see Islam as superior in any way.
There are many things about it I find admirable and many other things that I find lacking.
Having said that, there are many Christians and Muslims that are poor examples of their beliefs. Anyone knows somebody can give lipservice to an ideal and not produce the real fruits.
I would be a friend to any Muslim that wanted to be my friend (and I am )and would not condemn them for their religion, but I would certainly have a reasonable DIALOGUE with them anytime they wanted - perhaps after we got done tossing the frisbee, going for lunch or whatever).
We are told by the Messiah to love all people, we are to pray for those who persecute us, we are not commanded to be offensive for the sake of the Good News, but rather be its ambasadors.
My apologies to the Muslims here for the ignorance and cruelty of some.
While I do not believe Islam is the true religion, I will always be happy to talk to you as openly and honestly as possible - even if it is to disagree.
It has actually been a joy to talk with Muslims, especially over the past 10 years and I have learned some things about Islam (but confess there is more I could know).
One of my best friends I have known for 25 yrs is a devout Muslim and he and I butt heads in a friendly way and are totally open to discussion - we also just go and do things as friends
Salaam/Shalom/Peace
R
rlg94086
Guest
As your post was directly after mine, I hope you are not referring to my question about suicide bombing. I am asking if those passages are what the terrorist/fundamentalists use as their justification. I believe it is a fair, informational question.
Godfrey:
I do not personally believe in Islam, but I have tried in the past to give it an honest and open look, if only to try to understand its beliefs.
I read the Qur’an, talked to dozens of Muslims at length over a period of several years, etc
Some of the comments here are disturbing and rather ignorant.
I think the Bible said a fool speaks everything in his heart.
Maybe step back and look at the emotional issues regarding terrorist fundamentalist Muslims, the beliefs of Islam itself, and how we as Chritians are supposed to approach those of other beliefs (I don’t think insulting them was one I read or was taught) and pose any questions or comments in an intelligent way.
I do think there are areas where Islam and Christianity meet ethically - but I feel the doctrinal/spiritual differences will forever be at odds. One simply follows Islam for their reasons or not.
Islam calls itself a religion - being a believer in Ye’shua the Messiah is not religion - it is believing in the ONE FAITH.
I do not personally see Islam as superior in any way.
There are many things about it I find admirable and many other things that I find lacking.
Having said that, there are many Christians and Muslims that are poor examples of their beliefs. Anyone knows somebody can give lipservice to an ideal and not produce the real fruits.
I would be a friend to any Muslim that wanted to be my friend (and I am )and would not condemn them for their religion, but I would certainly have a reasonable DIALOGUE with them anytime they wanted - perhaps after we got done tossing the frisbee, going for lunch or whatever).
We are told by the Messiah to love all people, we are to pray for those who persecute us, we are not commanded to be offensive for the sake of the Good News, but rather be its ambasadors.
My apologies to the Muslims here for the ignorance and cruelty of some.
While I do not believe Islam is the true religion, I will always be happy to talk to you as openly and honestly as possible - even if it is to disagree.
It has actually been a joy to talk with Muslims, especially over the past 10 years and I have learned some things about Islam (but confess there is more I could know).
One of my best friends I have known for 25 yrs is a devout Muslim and he and I butt heads in a friendly way and are totally open to discussion - we also just go and do things as friends
Salaam/Shalom/Peace
G
Godfrey
Guest
wasn’t directed at you - just after reading the general thread
blessings to you
blessings to you
A
anna1978
Guest
Amen
Anna x
E
Emad
Guest
Where does it justify that? It just teaches us not to take our enemies as protectors. It also teaches that those innocent people in the restaurant aren’t allowed to be killed. In fact you have to be just to them. Open your eyes (and mind) and go re-read the verses.
R
rlg94086
Guest
You misunderstand my question. I’m asking if those who commit these horrendous acts try to use these passages to justify their actions? If not, what passages do they use? I have read some sites that explain the peaceful teachings of the Quran, and yet these groups justify their actions from the same source.
You have to admit, it gives awful press to your faith. I’m trying to understand where and how they have perverted the religion.
I said earlier, even my co-worker who seems to be a very faithful Muslim, seemed to believe that if the ends justified the means sometimes it is acceptable.
I’m asking you to please help me understand. Rather than tell me to open my eyes (and mind), please explain it to me.
Now in regards to the passages, the english translation may be misleading:
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
060.009
Does “forbids you not” mean “does not forbid you”? If so, this does not say you have to deal kindly and justly, it means Allah does not prohibit it.
Like I said, the english translation leaves something to be desired. Either that or the Quran is not clearly written.
Emad:
You have to admit, it gives awful press to your faith. I’m trying to understand where and how they have perverted the religion.
I said earlier, even my co-worker who seems to be a very faithful Muslim, seemed to believe that if the ends justified the means sometimes it is acceptable.
I’m asking you to please help me understand. Rather than tell me to open my eyes (and mind), please explain it to me.
Now in regards to the passages, the english translation may be misleading:
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
060.009
Does “forbids you not” mean “does not forbid you”? If so, this does not say you have to deal kindly and justly, it means Allah does not prohibit it.
Like I said, the english translation leaves something to be desired. Either that or the Quran is not clearly written.
R
rlg94086
Guest
Emad,
I haven’t found a Catholic apologist response to the Deuteronomy passages you cited, but I did find this site against the death penalty, which gives a pretty good explanation:
huppi.com/kangaroo/L-murderersdeserve.htm
rlg94086:
I haven’t found a Catholic apologist response to the Deuteronomy passages you cited, but I did find this site against the death penalty, which gives a pretty good explanation:
huppi.com/kangaroo/L-murderersdeserve.htm
Obviously, many of these laws are archaic, and criminal justice has evolved considerably since then. Few people seriously argue that these laws should be replicated in today’s world. For Christians, Jesus himself signaled a change away from the legal philosophy of lex talion when he said:
Typically, pro-death penalty Christians counter this text with the following quote, from the same sermon:
What Jesus meant by this is the subject of vigorous debate. However, what is obvious is that many laws changed under the New Covenant; Christians were freed from many of the ancient Jewish laws on circumcision, Sabbath-observance and temple sacrifices. So it is not a question of whether the Talmudic laws were changed or dropped; the only question is *how many *were. If some Christians maintain that at least the civil and criminal laws of the Talmud are still valid in their entirety, then we should expect that they actually subscribe to all of them. This would include the commandment requiring two or three eye-witnesses for a capital conviction, and the initiation of the death penalty in all the above instances. Needless to say, no Christian would ever agree to such a legal code.
Now ***those ***quotes are more challenging. We discussed them on another thread, so I was surprised you missed them in your earlier question.
Certainly we don’t follow this as Christians, but I will have to see what more serious theologians have to say about squaring these with Jesus’ words you quoted above (i.e. Fullfilment of the Law). My guess is he may have been referring more specifically to the Ten Commandments?? I’ll get back to you. Certainly, Jesus is very clear that we are to “love our enemies.”
As far as the terrorists not being guided by Allah (pbuh), I’m glad to hear that!So, I’m sure what they do is rejected by all devout Muslim, yes? Unfortunately, no.
Even a very level-headed co-worker of mine in Malaysia told me that if a suicide bombing of citizens is for a specific goal which will better conditions (he gave the example of Israel), it’s okay. If it is for personal glory, it is not okay. He of course said that the bombing of fellow Muslim and mosques, is completely unacceptable. To Christians, the purposeful killing of any civilians is a grave sin, unless it is in self-defense.
Robert
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