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murtad
Guest
Could he be a Trinitarian Muslim?
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LilyM
Guest
Cute thought … for purposes of this forum, though, let’s keep to common or garden English-language meanings of such words as ‘Muslim’, which in the west is generally understood to be a follower of Mohammed.
Otherwise we could get into no end of trouble …
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francisca
Guest
Ishmael's child:
But I guess it has something to do with this :
Isiah 9
1 The people who walk in darkness have seen a great light. A light has dawned on those who live in the land of the shadow of death…
5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given us; the royal ornament is laid upon his shoulder and his name is proclaimed: “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace”.
Quran speaks of darkness and the people whom “Allah give not light”, but Prophet Isiah foretold the coming of the Messiah will be an end to such darkness.
John 1
5 Light that shines in the dark : Light that darkness could not overcome.
The Light is coming to the world, so such darkness that Quran talks about would find an end.
I do not know about how many people convert to what religion. What I know for sure is : Those who believe in The Light will not believe in darkness anymore.
I am not quite clear with your question & its relation to the quote of Quran 24 above.I repeat the question if you don’t see it cleary :
the question does what happened in Arabia is happening in whole World now?, I mean all people ask & talk about it ( Islam ) and that is what Arabs did before became muslims…
I want clear answer
Holy Quran 24:
40. Or (the Unbelievers’ state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!
But I guess it has something to do with this :
Isiah 9
1 The people who walk in darkness have seen a great light. A light has dawned on those who live in the land of the shadow of death…
5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given us; the royal ornament is laid upon his shoulder and his name is proclaimed: “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace”.
Quran speaks of darkness and the people whom “Allah give not light”, but Prophet Isiah foretold the coming of the Messiah will be an end to such darkness.
John 1
5 Light that shines in the dark : Light that darkness could not overcome.
The Light is coming to the world, so such darkness that Quran talks about would find an end.
I do not know about how many people convert to what religion. What I know for sure is : Those who believe in The Light will not believe in darkness anymore.
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Ishmael_s_child
Guest
_Numbers 31:17-18
“Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
_
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. Are they crazy?
_Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
_If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
_If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it’s inhabitants… even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
and muslims do not persecute Christians and kill the innocent.
while the bible does not persecute muslims only :
Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)
while in Islam:
_“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)”
_“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)”
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Emad
Guest
Ishmael’s child said:
Yes I would like an explanation of those above verses. I tried getting them from Christians on another forum, but they are failing to give a response. I thought I would have a better chance on a Christian forum. I would like to add a couple verses to those listed above:
“All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.” [2 Chronicles 15:13]
1 Timothy 6:12–“Fight the good fight of faith…” (cf. 2 Tim. 4:7). Contending involves defending the faith, fighting the fight, and engaging in a mighty struggle to fight to the death with the forces of apostasy.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”
I am assuming all Christians believe the Bible is the word of God, many of you also believe killing apostates is wrong, would God tell you to do something that is wrong? Anytime Christians don’t like something in their scripture it seems like they just deny it and say they don’t believe in that part or it’s not applicable or something like that. So please tell me, was God wrong when he ordered such things, or is it that you believe that part of the Bible is wrong, thus not from God?
Also the Church has a history of killing apostates, don’t you believe the Church is guided by God?
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davy39
Guest
Ishmael's child:
When you ask a clear and understandable question, I will give you an answer.I just want to say that’s so cool WAAAAAAAAW!!!
Many subjects here about Islam , all Forum’s visitors will feel how Islam has widely spread .
that’s Muhammad religion , you will find it in everywhere and in widely spread.
Holy Qur’an Surah 61. The Ranks, Battle Array 8. Their intention is to extinguish Allah.s Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
the question does what happened in Arabia is happening in whole World now?, I mean all people ask & talk about it ( Islam ) and that is what Arabs did before became muslims…
I want clear answer
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Emad
Guest
What about my questions? I think they are quite clear.
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exoflare
Guest
Ishmael’s child said:
It sure is.
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Catherine_S
Guest
Admiral Akbar?
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/admiralackbar/img/movie_bg.jpg
(Star Wars nerd. Please, tolerate me.)
!!!
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Emad
Guest
What about my questions? I think they are quite clear.
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rlg94086
Guest
Well let me take a stab at it. I’m not a theologian, but I’ll give it my best shot.
Emad:
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cestusdei
Guest
In the beginning the Church did not kill apostates. Even by then the Jews didn’t kill them either. In earlier times they prohibited it due to the human sacrifice elements of other religions.
One could argue that the Muslim love of killing apostates is human sacrifice to Allah. Interesting religion you have there. Probably the only one left that does it.
We consider killing apostates an aberration rather then a religious duty. That is your position. You owe it to Allah to kill converts. Jews in Muhammeds time tried to explain this to him and rein in his bloodthristy ways. He, if you remember, uncovered the Rabbi’s finger to reveal the verse he wanted. No explanation would alter Muhammeds notion that killing was not only fun but good.
But Muslims love to bring up ancient history. They don’t like bringing up todays news. It is routine for Muslims to kill converts, not just 1000 years ago, but TODAY. They even protest when they can’t kill the convert. Your religion is one of fear and hate. It can’t stand the light of reason, so you kill anyone who dares ask tough questions or chooses to leave. It is a sign of how weak your faith is. We don’t need to threaten or kill people to force them to stay. If they want to leave we RESPECT their decision. It’s called FREEDOM OF RELIGION. I recommend it to you.
One could argue that the Muslim love of killing apostates is human sacrifice to Allah. Interesting religion you have there. Probably the only one left that does it.
We consider killing apostates an aberration rather then a religious duty. That is your position. You owe it to Allah to kill converts. Jews in Muhammeds time tried to explain this to him and rein in his bloodthristy ways. He, if you remember, uncovered the Rabbi’s finger to reveal the verse he wanted. No explanation would alter Muhammeds notion that killing was not only fun but good.
But Muslims love to bring up ancient history. They don’t like bringing up todays news. It is routine for Muslims to kill converts, not just 1000 years ago, but TODAY. They even protest when they can’t kill the convert. Your religion is one of fear and hate. It can’t stand the light of reason, so you kill anyone who dares ask tough questions or chooses to leave. It is a sign of how weak your faith is. We don’t need to threaten or kill people to force them to stay. If they want to leave we RESPECT their decision. It’s called FREEDOM OF RELIGION. I recommend it to you.
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pro_universal
Guest
The most virulent vessel of fear and hatred I see on this thread is quoted above.
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cestusdei
Guest
That’s right. They chop off someones head and you say I am the mean one. How utterly typical. I speak out for freedom and human rights. You support the people who hate those very things and would kill you in a heartbeat. As Lenin said, useful…
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pro_universal
Guest
Once again, you dodge the issue. Why is it so tough for you to love muslims? Isn’t that part of your duty as a priest?
Your continual refusal to explain so many posts that are odds with the authority of the Church is troubling, to say the least. I don’t think you should be able to identify yourself as a Priest if you’re going to teach the opposite of what the Church commands.
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Emad
Guest
rlg blue
Emad black
Yes, but men have free will and they sin. Do you believe that muslim terrorist who kill fellow muslim are being guided by Allah (pbuh)?
No I don’t, however you believe the Church is guided, I don’t believe Muslim terrorists are guided. That is the difference.
Again, God didn’t order us to kill apostates. If you find a place where he did say it, let me know.
If you scroll down some more, you will see these verses in another members post:
_Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
_If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
_If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it’s inhabitants… even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
and muslims do not persecute Christians and kill the innocent.
while the bible does not persecute muslims only :
Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)
Emad black
Yes, but men have free will and they sin. Do you believe that muslim terrorist who kill fellow muslim are being guided by Allah (pbuh)?
No I don’t, however you believe the Church is guided, I don’t believe Muslim terrorists are guided. That is the difference.
Again, God didn’t order us to kill apostates. If you find a place where he did say it, let me know.
If you scroll down some more, you will see these verses in another members post:
_Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
_If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
_If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it’s inhabitants… even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
and muslims do not persecute Christians and kill the innocent.
while the bible does not persecute muslims only :
Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)
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cestusdei
Guest
Emad, see my answer to you above.
pro, I love them enough to tell them they are wrong. You don’t seem to love them at all since in your eyes they do no wrong.
pro, I love them enough to tell them they are wrong. You don’t seem to love them at all since in your eyes they do no wrong.
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Emad
Guest
It’s full of accusations, and you totally avoided answering my questions.
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Emad
Guest
APOSTASY A FIDE, or PERFIDIÆ
Perfidiæ is the complete and voluntary abandonment of the Christian religion, whether the apostate embraces another religion such as Paganism, Judaism, Mohammedanism, etc., or merely makes profession of Naturalism, Rationalism, etc. The heretic differs from the apostate in that he only denies one or more of the doctrines of revealed religion, whereas the apostate denies the religion itself, a sin which has always been looked upon as one of the most grievous. The “Shepherd” of Hermas, a work written in Rome in the middle of the second century, states positively that there is no forgiveness for those who have wilfully denied the Lord. [Similit. ix. 26, 5; Funk, Opera Patrum apostolicorum (Tübingen, 1887), I, 547].
newadvent.org/cathen/01624b.htm
Mind you that the above is a Christian source. Did the Church ever apologize for this? Also if the pope is infallible, and killing of apostates is wrong according to your religion, how do we put what happened and your belief in him together?
Perfidiæ is the complete and voluntary abandonment of the Christian religion, whether the apostate embraces another religion such as Paganism, Judaism, Mohammedanism, etc., or merely makes profession of Naturalism, Rationalism, etc. The heretic differs from the apostate in that he only denies one or more of the doctrines of revealed religion, whereas the apostate denies the religion itself, a sin which has always been looked upon as one of the most grievous. The “Shepherd” of Hermas, a work written in Rome in the middle of the second century, states positively that there is no forgiveness for those who have wilfully denied the Lord. [Similit. ix. 26, 5; Funk, Opera Patrum apostolicorum (Tübingen, 1887), I, 547].
newadvent.org/cathen/01624b.htm
Mind you that the above is a Christian source. Did the Church ever apologize for this? Also if the pope is infallible, and killing of apostates is wrong according to your religion, how do we put what happened and your belief in him together?
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cestusdei
Guest
Emad, it’s full of truth. Is that why you can’t answer it?
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