WAY beyond a "Folk Mass"

[Cat]

I like contemporary music in the Mass, and we have quite a bit of it in several of our OF Masses. Not rock music with a rock band, but the 40-year-old contemporary music written by Haas, Haugen, etc. It’s very pretty.

However, I can’t help but wonder about the cantor jumping up onto the altar. That sounds very bad to me. Not just abusive, but sacrilegious. Who the heck cares about the rock music?! Why on earth aren’t we more concerned with someone jumping up on the altar?! That’s beyond shocking, people!

May I ask the OP to please clarify if this is really what he/she means?

For one thing, our altar is fairly high. At least three feet high, so that a typical-sized priest doesn’t have to bend way over. I think that most Catholic church altars are that high. How on earth can someone have a vertical JUMP that high? Maybe if someone had a running start, but is the sanctuary that big to allow someone to run and jump? This sounds like quite an athletic feat.

And usually, there are vessels on our altar, and various fabrics, and lighted candles off to the side. (I apologize for not using the correct names for all of these.) It just doesn’t seem possible for someone to jump up onto the altar with all this “stuff” in the way. It seems dangerous.

Finally, the altar is not something that people would STAND on. To me, this would be like standing on a table or on a chair–yes, in a party where people have had too much to drink, this might happen, but as a rule, people do not stand on other people’s furniture.

Of course, I realize that perhaps the altar at the parish that the OP visited might have a different construction than the altars that I have seen at various Catholic churches. Perhaps it has a place built into it for someone to stand? (Pretty big altar.)

Anyway, I would really appreciate clarification, because I just can’t wrap my head around this. .

 

[jwinch2]

There are documents that say “pride and place”, which no one will dispute. What’s on the table is that in addition to the more “classical” music, there are other forms of instruments and styles which could be permitted. The question is what is profane and the term “secular”. The question I also bring to the table is that America’s culture is no longer Euro-centric, so why be bound by Euro-Culture?

Its not about being bound to Euro-culture, with the exception that we are of the Roman Rite, and thus bound to its Traditions and norms. However, it is more importantly about the fact that the Mass is to be sacred, something which is set apart from the secular world. We have a 2000 year Tradition and the Church in her wisdom recognizes that what we see and hear affects us greatly, whether we realize it or not.

The Church’s preference is for the propers to be used for the processional, offeratory, and during communion and for us to use a recessional hymn. This is important not only for the beauty, but also because the propers themselves tie in with the liturgical calendar and the readings for the Mass that particular week. In short, they tie the liturgy together with the word of God in the Bible, which is important, and a big part of the reason they are the first of the four choices that are listed in the GIRM. If the propers cannot be done for some reason, the next choice down in preference is the use of antiphons and responses in dialogue between the cantor/choir and the faithful.

My personal preference would not be for chant, it would be for music in the style of John Rutter’s Requiem. If I was Pope for a day, I would commission him to write Mass settings for the entire English speaking Church and mandate their use. However, I am not the pope and do not have that authority. Thus, I cannot have my preferences.

 

[WildCatholic]

1. I fail to understand why people dislike “Folk Masses.” Assuming I understand correctly what’s being referred to, I actually like them. My home parish typically has a piano, an acoustic guitar and a flute, and I think it sounds quite nice, reverent and beautiful.
2. That said, I still agree with everyone that the Mass from the OP is not so tasteful. Especially the part with everyone singing the end of the Eucharistic Prayer together (Is that even allowed? )
3. I rather like Christian rock, but I still wouldn’t want it as a Mass setting

I honestly think its not so much the instruments as the music. I mean its one thing to hear an arrangement of “Panis Angelicus” on guitar and flute. Its completely another to have hippy music like Peter Paul and Mary’s wedding song or stuff like that. I don’t think its so much the instruments as the music.

And not to diss Christian rock as I like some artists like Matt Maher, needtobreathe, and swtichfoot, but to quote Hank Hill from King of the Hill “Cant you see you’re not making Christianity better, your’e just making rock and roll worse”

 

[LilyM]

Because of it’s the Sacrifice of the Mass. We’re at Calvary. I don’t think we would all be standing there making noise when Christ is dying for me and you.

Think about it. It’s the truth.

I doubt we’d be singing ‘Ave Verum Corpus’ or playing a pipe organ or singing even the most tasteful Gregorian Chant either, yet all are perfectly acceptable for Mass. Your point is not well made.

 

[paperwight66]

I doubt we’d be singing ‘Ave Verum Corpus’ or playing a pipe organ or singing even the most tasteful Gregorian Chant either, yet all are perfectly acceptable for Mass. Your point is not well made.

I agree. I’ve never been able to understand this ‘we’re standing at the foot of the cross’ analogy. If we were, we wouldn’t be doing anything else but weeping and prostrating ourselves…

Mass is re-presenting the Sacrifice in gratitude and love, and glorifying God for raising Jesus from the dead, thus opening the gates of heaven for us, His adopted children.

The Resurrection and Ascension happened. We are the Easter People, as a pope (JP11?) said, and Alleluia is our song.

 

[hudson]

Sounds absolutely dreadful. We wonder why our 20 and 30 something Catholics leave. These old folks will never understand they cannot make worship funner than what the secular world has to offer. The Mass needs to be reverent and focused solely toward God. The Mass is Christ’s one time sacrifice offered to God the Father in an unbloody manner. Makes me sick to think of drums banging and guitars strumming while this sacrifice is taking place. And before someone chimes in with how could a Mass where Jesus is made present be dreadful…a black mass also has Jesus made present and it is also dreadful.

 

[Melchior_1]

Sounds absolutely dreadful. We wonder why our 20 and 30 something Catholics leave. These old folks will never understand they cannot make worship funner than what the secular world has to offer. The Mass needs to be reverent and focused solely toward God. The Mass is Christ’s one time sacrifice offered to God the Father in an unbloody manner. Makes me sick to think of drums banging and guitars strumming while this sacrifice is taking place. And before someone chimes in with how could a Mass where Jesus is made present be dreadful…a black mass also has Jesus made present and it is also dreadful.

So you’re comparing guitars and drums at Mass on the same level as a “black Mass”?

 

[hudson]

There are documents that say “pride and place”, which no one will dispute. What’s on the table is that in addition to the more “classical” music, there are other forms of instruments and styles which could be permitted. The question is what is profane and the term “secular”. The question I also bring to the table is that America’s culture is no longer Euro-centric, so why be bound by Euro-Culture?

A harp is allowed, but a guitar isn’t? A bass is allowed, provided it’s not electric and the bass needs to be twice the size of someone? Kettle drums are allowed, but other forms of percussion are not?

The hierarchy you mentioned could have stepped at any moment, and they have chosen not to at this time. That also says something about the situation.

I know you aren’t like this Jason, but I do want to mention one thing. I wonder is if some folks would be willing to throw people out of the church building simply due to what they’re wearing and/or what instrument they’re playing. The talk about kids wearing inappropriate clothes bothers me because it sounds as if people are willing to exclude and marginalize just because of their clothes. Would you lecture a child over their clothes? You don’t know where they are at, like if they brought themselves to Mass that day for the first time in years. Or that years of poor religious education in the schools have told them that this is fine - telling them “dress better!” might not wash. Some of these kids would ordinarily not even go to Mass, this might be their second or third time coming. How about we don’t

It extends past the kids too. You never know if that guy playing drums while wearing pants with a hole in them is unemployed and homeless, while still teaching kids about things like this.

Don’t base opinions off what is seen and what is heard, maybe form opinions from the heart and bring things to Christ.

I would have signs posted that state if you don’t come dressed modestly and proper for the holy sacrifice of the Mass then don’t come in. When someone reads that, it is up to them whether to obey the rules or not. And don’t act like people can’t afford decent clothes. I can go down the goodwill and purchase a nice set of clothes for church for probably $5. Since our poor can afford big screen televisions not having decent clothes is not excusable.

 

[hudson]

So you’re comparing guitars and drums at Mass on the same level as a “black Mass”?

No just proving the absurdity of the argument that I hear on these forums when someone points out what I did. Of course you conveniently ignore my main point to try and discredit what I have to say. Good job.

 

[maryjk]

Sounds absolutely dreadful. **We wonder why our 20 and 30 something Catholics leave. ** These old folks will never understand they cannot make worship funner than what the secular world has to offer. The Mass needs to be reverent and focused solely toward God. The Mass is Christ’s one time sacrifice offered to God the Father in an unbloody manner. Makes me sick to think of drums banging and guitars strumming while this sacrifice is taking place. And before someone chimes in with how could a Mass where Jesus is made present be dreadful…a black mass also has Jesus made present and it is also dreadful.

I will say some positives…people were singing really loud. People seemed really engaged. The Mass was packed, standing room only, people out the door. The priest seemed friendly when he was outside saying goodbye as you were leaving.

If you read the OP, the Mass was packed to overflowing.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

If you read the OP, the Mass was packed to overflowing.

Check back in 5 years and see if the same people are there.

 

[hudson]

If you read the OP, the Mass was packed to overflowing.

The teens and younger love this stuff. When they get out in the real world on their own they lose the faith. Want to know why? Because they find out quick the Church can’t show them fun like the secular world can. I know this how? Because it happened to me and all of my friends. I did not find authenticate Catholic worship until I was 29 years old when I had an interest in returning. I thought I would give it a try because I was starting to hear things coming from Bishops and the Pope that I had not heard in my entire life. Luckily I came back at our Diocese Cathedral because if I would have come back to the Mass described by the OP, I would have never stayed.

 

[agapewolf]

Check back in 5 years and see if the same people are there.

I can tell you in my area, they are. The masses in my area have full instrumentation with praise and worship music, been going on for over 15 years. Our seminary has grown, the masses are the fullest of all of them, with ages mostly evenly mixed with a slight lean towards younger folks, lots of teens.

 

[maryjk]

Check back in 5 years and see if the same people are there.

The teens and younger love this stuff. When they get out in the real world on their own they lose the faith. Want to know why? Because they find out quick the Church can’t show them fun like the secular world can. I know this how? Because it happened to me and all of my friends. I did not find authenticate Catholic worship until I was 29 years old when I had an interest in returning. I thought I would give it a try because I was starting to hear things coming from Bishops and the Pope that I had not heard in my entire life. Luckily I came back at our Diocese Cathedral because if I would have come back to the Mass described by the OP, I would have never stayed.

Then your sentence should have read, “When I got out in the real world” Or “When my friends got out in the real world.” It is just your guess why people leave the Church. My family left the Church. It had nothing to do with music or the Mass. So should I assume everyone left for the same reason my parents did?

Would I enjoy a Mass like this? Nope. I don’t like rock music. But that doesn’t mean that every Mass out there should have music to my taste. But it also doesn’t mean that every Mass has to have music to your taste.

And as the poster continues to post and give more information, it sounds as though the first post was, shall we say, exaggerated? I am sure that the Cantor did not actually jump onto the Altar. Nor was it really “Rock” music, just “Rocking” music. (And really it was just music that the OP didn’t like.)

 

[agapewolf]

Also, just wanted to mention The Steubenville conferences that have this kind of music-- the ones that people are contending people don’t like and leave the church because of it: well, registration just crashed the server in St. Louis.

They sell out every year, 2 full conferences of 3300 each. And that is just St.Louis.

“People leave the church becasue of the music” is NOT a valid argument. It’s just not true.

 

[hudson]

My sentence was written correctly.

 

[maryjk]

My sentence was written correctly.

It may have been written correctly, but the statement is incorrect.

 

[hudson]

It may have been written correctly, but the statement is incorrect.

The statement was written correctly and the statement itself is correct. There is more to people leaving then just the music and I never said that was the only reason. I would say my statement is on the level of theory and not hypothesis. Of course by your reasoning no one should write a statement because everything anyone has to say comes from experiences and research. That means every statement could be argued as not true. With that reasoning, even our Church leaders should not make a statement unless they are speaking ex cathedra because it could be argued to be incorrect. Anyways I will stick with my statement being correct and true.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I can tell you in my area, they are. The masses in my area have full instrumentation with praise and worship music, been going on for over 15 years. Our seminary has grown, the masses are the fullest of all of them, with ages mostly evenly mixed with a slight lean towards younger folks, lots of teens.

Great!

Now give them a quiz on basic catholicism. And…maybe get a group together on Monday to see what they thought about the gospel and homily.

 

[buc_fan33]

Also, just wanted to mention The Steubenville conferences that have this kind of music-- the ones that people are contending people don’t like and leave the church because of it: well, registration just crashed the server in St. Louis.

They sell out every year, 2 full conferences of 3300 each. And that is just St.Louis.

“People leave the church becasue of the music” is NOT a valid argument. It’s just not true.

My diocese is partly responsible for that…we’re taking over 400.

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again…the youth that I meet on Steubenville conferences are among the most faithful young people I meet every year. I’ve only been a priest for about nine months, but without question, aside from my ordination and first Mass, hearing Confessions at that conference was the most moving experience of my priesthood.