We ARE saved by Works.

[NotWorthy]

Since he (or his bot) is not here to defend himself, I’ll just add that he was writing the ordinary evangelical doctrine of salvation, not some weird ideas of some prophet.

Discussing the topic of faith and works (which occurs here every, oh, three days or so) triggers all kinds of instant misinterpretations and knee-jerk rejections. I wish that each side could understand the other’s point.

Yes, our good friend bb simply cut and pasted everything this person said, whether he discerned all of it with the guiadance of the Holy Spirit is between him and God. That would make it seem like bb follows this man’s sermon like a prophet.

It’s interesting to hear Catholics called blind followers, and yet, reading his post, findout out that we con’t own exclusive rights to this phenomenon.

If bb wants to dialogue, he would have opened himself up to it. That series was not in anyway meant to dialog, it was simply to teach us Catholic Simpleton’s the truth as he sees it.

 

[Kevan]

Yes, our good friend bb simply cut and pasted everything this person said, whether he discerned all of it with the guiadance of the Holy Spirit is between him and God. That would make it seem like bb follows this man’s sermon like a prophet.

It would be more accurate to say that he apparently believed what he cut and pasted. His basis for believing it is something you cannot know unless you ask him.

If bb wants to dialogue, he would have opened himself up to it. That series was not in anyway meant to dialog, it was simply to teach us Catholic Simpleton’s the truth as he sees it.

Quite right. It is bad manners to come onto a discussion forum and not discuss.

 

[Robert902]

=NotWorthy;2274323]I’m sorry, Robert, but one day you’re going to find out that there is a different judgment.
Notice that Jesus says that some will remain in Him, and will bear much fruit.

Others will not remain in Him. What determines whether they will remain in HIm? It’s really very simple Robert. You must have Faith before you can enter into Him (unless you do it through your parents faith, but that’s another thread, please). Yes, you are saved. Catholics call this entering into the Church. But your Salvation is not etched in stone (for you may not remain in Him). It is your Faith acting through works that will determine whether you remain in Him.

BTW, I realize now that you don’t know my name. It’s John.

One final note, as I’ll be going to bed, shortly. We all agree that God is a God of Justice. What is Justice? Wouldn’t you agree that it is the reward for something that is good, and punishment for something that is bad?

John,

“The wages of sin is death.” And that’s why someone had to pay for our sins, because of what you are talking about. Our God is a God of justice, and the penalty for our sins has been paid for in full by Jesus on the cross. If that debt hadn’t been paid for, I would agree with you about us being judged for our sins. What good did it do for Jesus to go to the cross and die for our sins, if we are still going to be judged for them. It just doesn’t make any sense at all.
Think about it John, the whole reason that Jesus died for us was to save us from eternal damnation. Those who think that Christians will be judged for their sins, just don’t understand what God has done for them. He sent His only begotten Son to slaughter for the sins of filthy dirty sinners like you and me. And anyone who claims to be a Christian and doesn’t understand what a merciful loving God we serve really doesn’t understand how much He loves His children.
And He loves us so much that “He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ.” God say’s that “no one can snatch us out of His hand.” He also say’s that “He will raise us up at the last day.”
Eph 1:14. “Who is the [GUARANTEE] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”
John 10:28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall [NEVER] perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand.”
Romans 4:4-5. Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked; his faith is credited as righteousness."
Romans 4:7-8. Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are forgiven. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Romans 4:7-8. Demonstrates exactly what I have talking about for the last several weeks. Your sins have been forgiven, and you will never be judged for them. Jesus took the judgement for that, and if and when you realize how awesome that is you will understand that true works is a result of that realization. Not out of obligation, but out of true gratitude.

God Bless,
Robert

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

These words clearly express the official position of the Church of Rome. There is no salvation apart from participation in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. There is no other means of obtaining saving grace. Hardon’s words echo the teaching of the Council of Trent:

Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives He lives to God (Rom. 6:10).

Jesus’ death was a unique historic event which is completed and therefore he can never experience death again. In addition to Paul’s affirmation of this, Jesus himself states: ‘I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore’ (Rev. 1:18). The word used to describe the death of Jesus as a finished work—ephapax—is the same word used to describe his sacrifice and the offering of his body (Heb. 10:10; 9:25–26). Just as Christ cannot die again, neither can his body be offered again or his sacrifice be continued for sin. This is because apart from his death there is no sacrifice that is propitiatory for sin. What made his sacrifice propitiatory in God’s eyes was his death. Hebrews 9:22 makes this point: ‘Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.’ As a result then of this one sacrifice, the bible teaches that God has accomplished a sufficient and finished atonement. Since Christ cannot die again there is no more sacrifice for sin and therefore the mass cannot be the same sacrifice as Calvary. On the basis of that finished work God now offers complete and total forgiveness to man. There is no more sacrifice for sin: ‘Where there is forgiveness of these things there is no longer any offering for sin’ (Heb. 10:18). And since there is no need for further sacrifice, Scripture also teaches that there is no need for a continuing sacerdotal priesthood. Christ has fulfilled the Old Testament ceremonial law and it is now abrogated (Heb. 7:11–19). He has become our Sacrifice and Priest and the only Mediator by which we approach God (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 7:22–25). Christ’s atonement has completely removed the guilt of our sin and its condemnation because he has paid the penalty in full.

 

[johnnydigit]

what’s sad is that they are stuck on page 1, arguing non-stop about the basic stuff, while the Church has in it so many treasures God has given to us. while they are arguing about the validity of the Sacraments, we are using them to feel, see, taste, and receive the extraordinary graces God gives us.

while we explore the deep abysses of God’s graces in the bluest oceans, discovering extraordinary seas and vast expanses, offering our entire being and entering into new worlds that is only the tip of God’s iceberg, they are still splashing in the puddles on the shore they call the Christian faith. shrug.

what or what can we do. if only we could just toss them in the pool like kids learning to swim. you wanna be saved? here “save” this! <pushes guy backwards into pool of God’s grace>. it’s called the Eucharist!

 

[Robert902]

=biblebeliver;2274598]These words clearly express the official position of the Church of Rome. There is no salvation apart from participation in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. There is no other means of obtaining saving grace. Hardon’s words echo the teaching of the Council of Trent:

Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives He lives to God (Rom. 6:10).

Jesus’ death was a unique historic event which is completed and therefore he can never experience death again. In addition to Paul’s affirmation of this, Jesus himself states: ‘I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore’ (Rev. 1:18). The word used to describe the death of Jesus as a finished work—ephapax—is the same word used to describe his sacrifice and the offering of his body (Heb. 10:10; 9:25–26). Just as Christ cannot die again, neither can his body be offered again or his sacrifice be continued for sin. This is because apart from his death there is no sacrifice that is propitiatory for sin. What made his sacrifice propitiatory in God’s eyes was his death. Hebrews 9:22 makes this point: ‘Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.’ As a result then of this one sacrifice, the bible teaches that God has accomplished a sufficient and finished atonement. Since Christ cannot die again there is no more sacrifice for sin and therefore the mass cannot be the same sacrifice as Calvary. On the basis of that finished work God now offers complete and total forgiveness to man. There is no more sacrifice for sin: ‘Where there is forgiveness of these things there is no longer any offering for sin’ (Heb. 10:18). And since there is no need for further sacrifice, Scripture also teaches that there is no need for a continuing sacerdotal priesthood. Christ has fulfilled the Old Testament ceremonial law and it is now abrogated (Heb. 7:11–19). He has become our Sacrifice and Priest and the only Mediator by which we approach God (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 7:22–25). Christ’s atonement has completely removed the guilt of our sin and its condemnation because he has paid the penalty in full.

This is truly beautiful, because you have presented here something that is completely devoid of opinion. It Biblically shows that Jesus died [once] for our sins. God poured out His wrath and judgement once and forever, on His Son Jesus, for our sins. Paid in full!

God Bless,
Robert

 

[guanophore]

The OP is wrong, and this is not just me speaking but the authority of Church teaching as well. As somebody else mentioned earlier, if we are saved by one thing “alone” it is grace.

Well, there is one essential “work” without which one cannot avail oneself of saving grace:

John 6:28-29
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[whatevergirl]

i think it’s like an automated bot that is set to snipe catholic message boards. http://www.modelhommes-forum.com/im...xeljoint.com/files/icons/terminator_robot.gif

LOL That made me laugh.

 

[NotWorthy]

“The wages of sin is death.” And that’s why someone had to pay for our sins, because of what you are talking about. Our God is a God of justice, and the penalty for our sins has been paid for in full by Jesus on the cross. If that debt hadn’t been paid for, I would agree with you about us being judged for our sins. What good did it do for Jesus to go to the cross and die for our sins, if we are still going to be judged for them. It just doesn’t make any sense at all.

Robert, please answer this. You’re stuck on this doctrine without reconciling it with others. You say that Jesus died for all of our sins. We can then continue to sin and still be saved?

Jesus says that not all of us will remain in Him, and then you spout that nothing can snatch us away from God. Of course not. But we can give up this free gift, just as the Prodigal Son did. How do we give this up (or how do we not remain in Him), by not keeping His commandments.

Think about it John, the whole reason that Jesus died for us was to save us from eternal damnation. Those who think that Christians will be judged for their sins, just don’t understand what God has done for them. He sent His only begotten Son to slaughter for the sins of filthy dirty sinners like you and me. And anyone who claims to be a Christian and doesn’t understand what a merciful loving God we serve really doesn’t understand how much He loves His children.

You amaze me, Robert, with this theology. Read over Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. He doesn’t call us to simply “have faith”, he tells us to live the Gospel. Listen to the Our Father, "Forgive us our sins, as (Robert, AS) we forgive those who tresspass against us.

Look at the parable where the master forgives his servant of his debt. (This servant is saved at this point, He is remaining in Christ). What happens when the servant doesn’t forgive a lesser debt? He gets thrown into prison (He loses his Salvation, He no longer remains in Christ).

And He loves us so much that “He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ.” God say’s that “no one can snatch us out of His hand.” He also say’s that “He will raise us up at the last day.”
Eph 1:14. “Who is the [GUARANTEE] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”

Again, agreed! Christ loves me. But I must love Him and remain in Him. I could throw away my inheritance just as the Prodigal Son does.

John 10:28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall [NEVER] perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand.”

This is a whole other thread. The Eternal Life is God’s Love, His Grace if you will. This Grace resides in our soul, provided we remain in Him.

Romans 4:4-5. Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked; his faith is credited as righteousness."
Romans 4:7-8. Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are forgiven. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

That’s the whole part of the Repent thing, Robert. Remember, Repenting is one of those “Necessary” things for Salvation. Repent means to turn away from sin. You can’t have it both ways - Sin and Redemption.

Romans 4:7-8. Demonstrates exactly what I have talking about for the last several weeks. Your sins have been forgiven, and you will never be judged for them. Jesus took the judgement for that, and if and when you realize how awesome that is you will understand that true works is a result of that realization. Not out of obligation, but out of true gratitude.
God Bless,
Robert

Notice, Romans says “Have been”. Paul’s not saying “Go ahead and sin again, 'cause Jesus has got your back”. Paul exhorts them to remain sinless.

I simply can’t believe you feel that you can sin (which is an abomination to God) and still think that you love Jesus with all your heart. Until you can go without sinning, you can never admit that.

 

[guanophore]

James’s point in his brilliant epistle seems to me to be more about people working out their salvation, so that fruit could be seen. And I agree wholeheartedly that faith without works is dead and useless; however, Paul here has just said that work itself justifies no one, but rather, faith does, and that faith must be producing fruit, or else it isn’t able to save anyone.

No, faith by itself does not justify, but works do play a role:

Matt 12:36-37
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Rom 2:13
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

Rom 10:10
10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved."

Confession is occurs through human will, and an action (work).

James 2:24
“You see that a man is justified by works…”

Jesus still requires obedience to the commandments of God:

Matt 5:18-19
19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;"

Matt 19:17
“If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

The implication is that if one does not keep the commandments, one will not enter life.

John 14:15

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

1 Cor 7:19
19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God."

1 John 2:2-6
3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

1 John 3:24
24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us."

Rev 14:12

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

 

[Robert902]

Well, there is one essential “work” without which one cannot avail oneself of saving grace:

John 6:28-29
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

You’re right, it is essential, but God has even provided “believing in Him” for us. Jesus even said that "this is the work of God’’.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[guanophore]

JUSTIFICATION begins with faith. It isn’t accomplished by it like false prophets calim.

I don’t think so. I think it begins with grace. Man cannot have faith without God first giving grace. Grace is God’s part, and faith is man’s part. When the two are mixed together, they produce salvation.

 

[guanophore]

Maybe you can’t earn it. So is that any reason to not try your very best to deserve it?

No, may we all be made worthy of the promises of Christ! But even our trying is based in grace. To 'be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect" can only occur by grace, through faith.

Not according to Paul - love doesn’t always flow from faith. He says we can have faith but not love.

He does say that, and also tells us to “work out your salvation”. Love is an act of the will (work) and it will flow from faith, but not without our cooperation, discipline, and constant turning away from sin.

Faith and Works? Are you telling me that those of us who tend toward doubt and laziness are in deep trouble?

Deep, deep trouble!

No, the tendency toward doubt and laziness are integral to human nature. However, one who fails to work against them constantly will eventually be carried away by them.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I don’t think so. I think it begins with grace. Man cannot have faith without God first giving grace. Grace is God’s part, and faith is man’s part. When the two are mixed together, they produce salvation.

Yes of course. I thought that went without saying. One cannot have the faith without Gods grace.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

No, may we all be made worthy of the promises of Christ! But even our trying is based in grace. To 'be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect" can only occur by grace, through faith.

Agreed. I feel your taking that reply a bit out of context though as it was a reply to earning salvation.

Pray I find new found gratitued for Gods Grace.

 

[guanophore]

There are some scriptures that seem to disagree with this notion that we can “blow it”.

I just don’t understand why this teaching of not being able to lose your salvation bothers so many Christians.

God Bless,
Robert

Because it is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, and therefore must be rejected as false!

 

[DiscernVoc]

In the end is faith not a work? This is the true flaw in Sola Fide. Faith is as much an act as any work. I was debating a Protestant recently who as usual didn’t understand Catholic theology. They were insistant on works based salvation taking away from God. What most Protestants fail to realize is that that act of faith is an act. It is a way of them earning God’s grace. They fail to realize that this act of faith is a work. In Catholicism, we realize through scripture and tradition, that salvation is through grace freely given. It is completely given from Christ. We merely put ourselves in the position of receiving this gift. This is impossible when we say no to God. This is accomplished through our actions and our state of being. Works, including faith, are nothing more than are acceptance of God’s grace and simply us saying yes to God. The sacraments are the highest form of works. They are the traditional and scripturally derived specific language in which we say yes to God. I would go so far as to say a Catholic who doesn’t take part in the sacraments is saying no to God. A protestant on the other hand has the ability to say yes to God, but lacks the perfect way to say yes.

 

[Robert902]

Because it is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, and therefore must be rejected as false!

All of the Bible verses that are used by individuals in an “attempt” to prove that salvation can be revoked, or lost, are used in the wrong context. Almost all of the verses they use, are talking about non-believers who never had salvation in the first place.
Pay attention to the context, and you will never find God talking about one of His own losing their inheritance, or salvation. Phill. 1:6 “being confident of this, That He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Eph 1:14 “Who is the [GUARANTEE] of our salvation until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”
John 10:28"-29. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand.

Who gives a gift, and then takes it away? Certainly not God.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[DiscernVoc]

You’re right, it is essential, but God has even provided “believing in Him” for us. Jesus even said that "this is the work of God’’.

God Bless,
Robert

Believing in Jesus is something that a Catholic can take for granted. Belief in Christ is ingrained in everything we do. Even Satan believes in Jesus. We say yes to Christ. We try and live the Christian life. If we just rested on the laurels of faith why do good deeds? Christ doesn’t just want us to believe in Him. He wants our love. We do that by showing love to His creatures, His creation, and Him directly in the form of the Eucharist. Just having belief in Him is empty. That’s why most protestants try to live a good life as well. Deep down they know that saying yes to Christ involves more than just faith. In fact, I think this is apparent in their actions.

 

[DiscernVoc]

All of the Bible verses that are used by individuals in an “attempt” to prove that salvation can be revoked, or lost, are used in the wrong context. Almost all of the verses they use, are talking about non-believers who never had salvation in the first place.
Pay attention to the context, and you will never find God talking about one of His own losing their inheritance, or salvation. Phill. 1:6 “being confident of this, That He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Eph 1:14 “Who is the [GUARANTEE] of our salvation until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”
John 10:28"-29. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand.

Who gives a gift, and then takes it away? Certainly not God.

God Bless,
Robert

You are taking it out of context. Nowhere does it say that this comes into effect before our judgement. In fact, it says the opposite. See Catholic Answers website. These verses especially : Phil 2:12, 2 Tim 4:7-8, 1 Cor 9:27.