M
malphono
Guest
In comment to the previous post, references to the catechism notwithstanding, the Latin Rite apparently prefers the first person singular (“I”): note that the Latin text was never changed to the plural.
- Status
D
diggerdomer
Guest
The Latin Rite may prefer the singular, but for the past 40 years in America the Roman Rite has been praying “We” as the Church decided.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Yet, the reality is that “the Church” did not decide to say “we believe”. ICEL made a change to the text, and managed to convince those in authority to approve the text when they were too busy to look very closely. Once the mistake was discovered, it was fixed (or at least will be with the new printing). What the Church finally decided in reality is that “we believe” is NOT appropriate for the Creed during Mass.
M
malphono
Guest
J
japhy
Guest
I’m reading Liturgiam Authenticam (because reading Church documents is how I roll on Friday nights!) and this part is especially apropos:
65. By means of the Creed (Symbolum) or profession of faith, the whole gathered people of God respond to the word of God proclaimed in the Sacred Scriptures and expounded in the homily, recalling and confessing the great mysteries of the faith by means of a formula approved for liturgical use. The Creed is to be translated according to the precise wording that the tradition of the Latin Church has bestowed upon it, including the use of the first person singular, by which is clearly made manifest that “the confession of faith is handed down in the Creed, as it were, as coming from the person of the whole Church, united by means of the Faith.” In addition, the expression carnis resurrectionem is to be translated literally wherever the Apostles’ Creed is prescribed or may be used in the Liturgy.
65. By means of the Creed (Symbolum) or profession of faith, the whole gathered people of God respond to the word of God proclaimed in the Sacred Scriptures and expounded in the homily, recalling and confessing the great mysteries of the faith by means of a formula approved for liturgical use. The Creed is to be translated according to the precise wording that the tradition of the Latin Church has bestowed upon it, including the use of the first person singular, by which is clearly made manifest that “the confession of faith is handed down in the Creed, as it were, as coming from the person of the whole Church, united by means of the Faith.” In addition, the expression carnis resurrectionem is to be translated literally wherever the Apostles’ Creed is prescribed or may be used in the Liturgy.
Z
zab
Guest
D
diggerdomer
Guest
I’m looking for a source on that, do you have one? I often hear the claim that the original Greek from the Council was “We.” Thank you.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
At least then that you’re agreeing with me that the Church approves of us praying “We” at Mass?
And if not, or if this truly is a significant error, why does the Catechism give a reason for using “we”? If it was really an error, and really that significant of one, the Church could have easily fixed it without relying on or waiting for the (interminably) long process of the entire Missal revision.
Z
zab
Guest
Thank you. The proper translation has been mentioned several times in this thread. The problem is that this proper translation has not been implemented yet. I agree with those who have said that this disruption (of shouting “I” instead of “we”) should not be happening. If some prefer to say “I” instead of “we” they should say it to themselves.
J
japhy
Guest
She won’t approve of it in 18 months.
The CCC is probably referring to the Creed as found in Denzinger where it is the version used at the Councils (when it is used in the first-person plural). Or maybe it’s just making the allowance for the mistranslation in certain languages.
Or the Church is just that slow.
It’s not an error in doctrine.
C
Callixtus
Guest
Yes, it’s also my understanding that it is supposed to be “I believe.” However, it’s important that we all stick to the approved prayers as published for our use at mass. That’s the only way to avoid the “doing my own thing” problem, which is really pernicious. The books will be corrected soon enough.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
No, that’s not precisely what I am saying. I am saying that somehow ICEL managed to get a wrong translation past the authorities in the Church who approve these texts–and I offer no speculation on how that happened other than to say that given the context of the time, these texts had to be approved rather quickly. The Holy See has since taken particular notice of this, and has taken steps to correct it.
This is what I am saying: The Holy See has corrected the mis-translation made by ICEL. I keep repeating that, but you keep trying to say that I’m saying something else.
It is a well-known, publicized fact that the new translation of the ordinary of the Mass will correct the previous mis-translation by ICEL and use the words “I believe…” In the meantime, as Catholics in the English-speaking world, we are bound to follow the approved liturgical texts (including the words “We believe…”), until the new translations are approved and their use is required. But that’s not quite the same thing as saying that the Church outright approves of the change to “We.” If that were true, then the correction would never have been made.
I do not know why the Church waited until now to fix this problem. That one is above my pay grade.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Ok, so what are you saying, in the end? Has the English-speaking Church in the United States been worshipping and praying erroneously for the past 40 years or so due to ICEL? Or, has the English-speaking Church in the United States been worshipping faithfully and obediently by praying “We” with the Creed at Sunday Mass as the Vatican directs?
Come on, you can’t have it both ways. Either the Church approves of the way English speaking Catholics have celebrated Mass according to the law and rubrics provided by the Vatican for the past 40 or so years…or not. If not, show us where the Church is wrong.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Yes. That much is a given because the Holy See has seen fit to correct the mistake made by ICEL. Although I would not use the word “erroneous” because that word is a variation on the word “error” which has a much stronger definition in theological use than would be appropriate here. I would say incorrect, mis-translated, mistaken, misguided, etc.
Likewise, yes. Out of obedience, we pray the texts as the Holy See has approved them.
The problem with the questions as you have presented them is that you are implying that the Vatican “directed” the words “we believe.” As we look at what is happening now, and we look at the historical context, it certainly gives one the impression that this mis-translation was somehow “missed” when the text was approved. The fact that it is being corrected re-inforces that possibility.
You keep trying to say that the Holy See made a conscious decision to change the Creed in English from “we” to “I” That is not the case. If that were true, then the change would have been made in all other languages, beginning with the typical Latin text–again, that did not happen.
- We do have an obligation to obediently follow the words of the Mass as they appear in the official, approved translations. It is not up to any individual Catholic, or group, to make “corrections” to the Mass.
- It is however the responsibility and authority of the Holy See to make those corrections. That is what is happening now. The process of making a correction is under way.
I am not trying to have things both ways. Only the texts approved by legitimate authority in the Church should be used. Right now, that means the words “We believe.” Even though this has been wrongly translated, it was legitimately approved. When the new books are printed, the mistake will be fixed.
P
peary
Guest
The Latin word CREDO means I BELIEVE.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Yes.
No kidding!!
But what I’m asking is what the original Greek text said, not what a later Latin translation said.
P
peary
Guest
The bishops approved the plural translation because of the emphasis being placed at the time on community worship, that ‘we’ believe together, and not just ‘I’. But now it has come full circle and there needs to be an adequate translation back to the original intent. There is more emphasis on proper liturgy now than there used to be.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Where, specifically, did the Church say “We” was **wrong **in praying the Nicene Creed at Mass?
That is what you’re claiming, right? If not, please clarify…I understood what you wrote as saying that praying “We” was** wrong.**. Not just inaccurate ( though no one to my knowledge on this thread has produced an authoritative source for the original Creed, i.e. in Greek) but actually WRONG.
Specifically, please. Not some generic “Latin is better” but specifically why “We” is wrong, i.e. a mistake as you claim.
Thanks.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Once again, the fact that the Church as seen fit to correct the translation is itself proof that the Church feels that it is necessary. I can provide links to the new translation, but that would be pointless as we all know what they say. The Latin text says “Credo” which you keep telling us you already know is in the singular.
Since the Latin text which says “Credo” was translated by ICEL as “We believe” that is objectively proof that the translation is incorrect. That’s why people keep trying to tell you that Credo is in the singular–because you keep saying that you know it, but you aren’t applying that knowlege to the situation.
When I studied foreign languages in school, if I translated a sentence in the singular from one language into another language in the plural, that question was marked “wrong” by the teacher/professor. If the teacher missed my incorrect answer and failed to mark it wrong, that did not mean that it was in fact correct. It meant that whoever did the correcting made a mistake as well.
Mistakes happen. The mistake made in the Creed is being corrected, even though the mistake was not discovered until more than 10 years after the fact. In this case, the “mistake” by ICEL was intentional.
- Status