"We Believe" or "I Believe"

[jbebeau]

There is a lot of discussion on this topic, which is nice to see, because it means people care about the liturgy and about the profession of faith.

The Nicene Creed was issued by the Council of Nicea in 325 is response to the Arian heresy. It was issued in Greek and began with “We believe.” This wiki article goes into a great deal about the history of the creed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

Why did the bishops issue a creed beginning with “we”? True they were speaking as a group, but something we forget is what is called the “plural of majesty” or the “imperial we.” When speaking authoritatively the Pope uses “we” not “I” (although this did change a bit during the reign of Pope John Paul II). The bishop were speaking with authority so they used the “plural of majesty.”

So then when does the Latin typical edition of the Missal use “I” when it is clear that a group of many people is speaking. Well first of all we aren’t speaking authoritatively, we decreeing we are professing, and we are professing ONE faith with ONE voice. There is only ONE Church, ONE Body of Christ, and so there can only be a singular expression of the faith.

In regards to the decision to switch to the plural from the singular in the English translation. Many accuse the old ICEL of doing this because they were responsible for the current banality in the Missal, however this wasn’t totally ICEL’s fault. For this we must look to the International Consultation on English Texts, now known as the English Language Liturgical Consultation. An ecumenical group of which ICEL was a member.

englishtexts.org/

In the late 60s and early 70s there was a desire for unity on such texts. And ICET explicitly stated that they returned to the we because that is what was in the Greek original text.

Who is responsible for this change. ICET because they proposed it, ICEL because they went along with it, Bishops’ Conferences because they approved the texts, and the Holy See because they granted recognitio to the texts.

So what to do about the situation? Well change is coming, the new text is “I believe.” But until the new Missal is implemented, it would be better to go with the current text. If not, a moment that calls for a fundamental unity in the Church and should be beyond politics, gets dragged into the political arena and becomes the source of discord. I understand the pain of enduring it, I want to say “And with your spirit” and “Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof” but I refrain, confident in the knowledge that something better is coming. The anticipation with make the advent of the new texts that much better.

 

[FrDavid96]

There is a lot of discussion on this topic, which is nice to see, because it means people care about the liturgy and about the profession of faith.

The Nicene Creed was issued by the Council of Nicea in 325 is response to the Arian heresy. It was issued in Greek and began with “We believe.” This wiki article goes into a great deal about the history of the creed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

Why did the bishops issue a creed beginning with “we”? True they were speaking as a group, but something we forget is what is called the “plural of majesty” or the “imperial we.” When speaking authoritatively the Pope uses “we” not “I” (although this did change a bit during the reign of Pope John Paul II). The bishop were speaking with authority so they used the “plural of majesty.”

So then when does the Latin typical edition of the Missal use “I” when it is clear that a group of many people is speaking. Well first of all we aren’t speaking authoritatively, we decreeing we are professing, and we are professing ONE faith with ONE voice. There is only ONE Church, ONE Body of Christ, and so there can only be a singular expression of the faith.

In regards to the decision to switch to the plural from the singular in the English translation. Many accuse the old ICEL of doing this because they were responsible for the current banality in the Missal, however this wasn’t totally ICEL’s fault. For this we must look to the International Consultation on English Texts, now known as the English Language Liturgical Consultation. An ecumenical group of which ICEL was a member.

englishtexts.org/

In the late 60s and early 70s there was a desire for unity on such texts. And ICET explicitly stated that they returned to the we because that is what was in the Greek original text.

Who is responsible for this change. ICET because they proposed it, ICEL because they went along with it, Bishops’ Conferences because they approved the texts, and the Holy See because they granted recognitio to the texts.

So what to do about the situation? Well change is coming, the new text is “I believe.” But until the new Missal is implemented, it would be better to go with the current text. If not, a moment that calls for a fundamental unity in the Church and should be beyond politics, gets dragged into the political arena and becomes the source of discord. I understand the pain of enduring it, I want to say “And with your spirit” and “Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof” but I refrain, confident in the knowledge that something better is coming. The anticipation with make the advent of the new texts that much better.

Thanks for the post, and thanks for reminding us of the distinction between:
ICE L & ICE T

I do admit, I often confuse the two, especially in a quick reading of a text.

 

[shuzo1189]

I just say it in Latin, even when everyone else is saying it in English.

Luckily I attend a Parish where the Ordinary of the mass is always in Latin. Im thankful so i can avoid conversations like this

Seems like a simple solution is to just bring back The Credo (That way everyone will be ready at Lourdes when it is sung in the processional and for Papal Masses:
youtube.com/watch?v=p59tfVW6Df8 (Lourdes)
youtube.com/watch?v=trsSiWRex_Q (Papal Mass NY, Notice the Crowd)

 

[alacoque]

Yes. That much is a given because the Holy See has seen fit to correct the mistake made by ICEL. Although I would not use the word “erroneous” because that word is a variation on the word “error” which has a much stronger definition in theological use than would be appropriate here. I would say incorrect, mis-translated, mistaken, misguided, etc.

Likewise, yes. Out of obedience, we pray the texts as the Holy See has approved them.

The problem with the questions as you have presented them is that you are implying that the Vatican “directed” the words “we believe.” As we look at what is happening now, and we look at the historical context, it certainly gives one the impression that this mis-translation was somehow “missed” when the text was approved. The fact that it is being corrected re-inforces that possibility.

You keep trying to say that the Holy See made a conscious decision to change the Creed in English from “we” to “I” That is not the case. If that were true, then the change would have been made in all other languages, beginning with the typical Latin text–again, that did not happen.

1. We do have an obligation to obediently follow the words of the Mass as they appear in the official, approved translations. It is not up to any individual Catholic, or group, to make “corrections” to the Mass.
2. It is however the responsibility and authority of the Holy See to make those corrections. That is what is happening now. The process of making a correction is under way.

The Church has said that the translation was wrong and needs to be corrected.

I am not trying to have things both ways. Only the texts approved by legitimate authority in the Church should be used. Right now, that means the words “We believe.” Even though this has been wrongly translated, it was legitimately approved. When the new books are printed, the mistake will be fixed.

Fr David: You are in my prayers! The good Lord must have a special ‘way of patience’ mapped out for you - and, to what I am sure will be your everlasting credit and glory, you are following it wonderfully! Keep it up! God bless you!