"We Believe" or "I Believe"

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Once again, the fact that the Church as seen fit to correct the translation is itself proof that the Church feels that it is necessary. I can provide links to the new translation, but that would be pointless as we all know what they say. The Latin text says “Credo” which you keep telling us you already know is in the singular.

Since the Latin text which says “Credo” was translated by ICEL as “We believe” that is objectively proof that the translation is incorrect. That’s why people keep trying to tell you that Credo is in the singular–because you keep saying that you know it, but you aren’t applying that knowlege to the situation.

When I studied foreign languages in school, if I translated a sentence in the singular from one language into another language in the plural, that question was marked “wrong” by the teacher/professor. If the teacher missed my incorrect answer and failed to mark it wrong, that did not mean that it was in fact correct. It meant that whoever did the correcting made a mistake as well.

Mistakes happen. The mistake made in the Creed is being corrected, even though the mistake was not discovered until more than 10 years after the fact. In this case, the “mistake” by ICEL was intentional.
So the Church has authorized a mistake in worship for the past 40 years.

Got it.

Thanks.

Even though within a year or so of Summorum Pontificum, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite was revised regarding the Good Friday prayers? But the Church couldn’t see fit to correct a “mistake” in 40 years of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite?

Completely consistent, and makes sense. No problem.
 
So the Church has authorized a mistake in worship for the past 40 years. … Even though within a year or so of Summorum Pontificum, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite was revised regarding the Good Friday prayers? But the Church couldn’t see fit to correct a “mistake” in 40 years of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite?
There are plenty of mistranslations in the English liturgical books that are being corrected. Yes, the Church authorized these poor translations. Why? I don’t know.
Completely consistent, and makes sense.
It doesn’t HAVE to be consistent! Mistakes are mistakes!
 
There are plenty of mistranslations in the English liturgical books that are being corrected. Yes, the Church authorized these poor translations. Why? I don’t know.

It doesn’t HAVE to be consistent! Mistakes are mistakes!
So…you’re saying mistakes in worship are ok, right? After all, the Church, for whatever reason, authorized them, right? Mistakes are mistakes, but as long as they’re authorized by the Church they’re ok.

No problem.
 
So the Church has authorized a mistake in worship for the past 40 years.
Got it.

Thanks.
The Church authorized a mistake in translation. This authorization happened when the Church was trying to approve translations from Latin into dozens of different languages. This is something that had never before happened in the history of the Church–all these translations of a new Latin text of the Mass being submitted for approval all at the same time. It is easy to understand that something could get missed. The people who did this approval did so, in part, because they trusted ICEL to do it’s job. If ICEL had done it’s job and translated the texts rather than change the texts, this would never have happened.
Even though within a year or so of Summorum Pontificum, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite was revised regarding the Good Friday prayers? But the Church couldn’t see fit to correct a “mistake” in 40 years of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite?
Completely consistent, and makes sense. No problem.
There was no mistake in the Ordinary Form. The mistake was only in the English translation of the Latin text of the Ordinary Form. That’s an important distinction.

Permitting a broader use of the Extraordinary Form provided an opportune moment for changing the Good Friday text for the entire Church. That has nothing to do with correcting ICEL’s translations into English. Just because the Church moves quickly on one thing, and slowly on another, doesn’t mean anything.
PS
In fact, the opposite of what you’re saying is true because it took the Church centuries to correct the Good Friday litany. not “within a year or so.”
 
Just because the Church moves quickly on one thing, and slowly on another, doesn’t mean anything.
Oh, thank you for informing us. I wasn’t aware of that distinction. Out of curiosity, though, is there some interpretive norm from the Church you’re referring to regarding the dynamic you cite, or is this just your opinion? Thanks.
In fact, the opposite of what you’re saying is true because it took the Church centuries to correct the Good Friday litany. not “within a year or so.”
Again, thanks. I thought Summorum Pontificum was issued in 2007, and the revision to the Good Friday prayer of the newly designated “Extraordinary Form” of the Roman Rite was issued subsequently to that. I guess my math isn’t that good, I didn’t think that centuries have passed since 2007.

Thanks, again, for clarifying.
 
The Greek text and Latin text were synonymous - they existed at the same time.
Really?

Wow, thanks.

Again, though, I’m looking for objective historical evidence that I can cite to refute those who claim the original Greek was “We.”

I had no idea that the Council issued simultaneous Latin and Greek texts…is that what you’re claiming? I would so love any references you could provide…again, thanks!
 
Oh, thank you for informing us. I wasn’t aware of that distinction. Out of curiosity, though, is there some interpretive norm from the Church you’re referring to regarding the dynamic you cite, or is this just your opinion? Thanks.
Now you want me to “prove” that the Church sometimes acts quickly and sometimes slowly? That’s ridiculous. You’re grasping at straws now.
Again, thanks. I thought Summorum Pontificum was issued in 2007, and the revision to the Good Friday prayer of the newly designated “Extraordinary Form” of the Roman Rite was issued subsequently to that. I guess my math isn’t that good, I didn’t think that centuries have passed since 2007.
Thanks, again, for clarifying.
Here’s the clarification. The Good Friday litany was in use for centuries before 2007. The unfortunate references to the Jewish people should have been removed centuries before, indeed they were never appropriate in the first place. There is at least one example of the Church moving slowly, very slowly, and NOT quickly as you are attempting to say. In addition, Summorum Pontificum only expanded on the use of the Ext. Form, which was already being used by permission of Pope John Paul II since 1984.
That’s 2007 - 1984 = 23 years,
so in that I would agree with you, your math isn’t that good.
 
Really?

Wow, thanks.

Again, though, I’m looking for objective historical evidence that I can cite to refute those who claim the original Greek was “We.”

I had no idea that the Council issued simultaneous Latin and Greek texts…is that what you’re claiming? I would so love any references you could provide…again, thanks!
No one is refuting that the original Greek text from the 1st Council of Constantinople said “we believe” Πιστεύομεν

The point is that when the Creed of the Council is used in a liturgical setting, the words are “I believe” Πιστεύω or Credo And this has been the case from the very beginning–in liturgical usage.

One more time, the text presented to ICEL in the late 1960s for translation said “Credo.” ICEL mis-translated that as “We believe”. Will you at least admit as much? So far, you have completely avoided saying anything at all about that.
 
One more time, the text presented to ICEL in the late 1960s for translation said “Credo.” ICEL mis-translated that as “We believe”. Will you at least admit as much? So far, you have completely avoided saying anything at all about that.
I have never denied or rejected that “Credo” is translated “I believe.”

I am simply maintaining that the Church decided that English-speaking Roman Catholics should pray “We believe” when praying the Creed at Mass in accordance with the Missal of Paul VI.

Nothing more, nothing less.
 
23 years.

Centuries?? (as you claim)

Yes, my math is apparently no better than yours.
Yes, centuries. Again, I find I must repeat myself. The Good Friday Litany prayers containing the unfortunate insensitive references to the Jewish people were in-use for centuries before finally being changed in 2007 (or was it 08? makes little difference). Do you understand that? Or were you under the impression that these prayers were a recent composition?
 
There are plenty of mistranslations in the English liturgical books that are being corrected. Yes, the Church authorized these poor translations. Why? I don’t know.

It doesn’t HAVE to be consistent! Mistakes are mistakes!
Yes, mistakes are mistakes. But the “why” for the poor translation was expediency. When the translations came out, the Vatican acknowledged that they were bad in many cases. The original VII docs called for “some vernacular” in the Masses, not the whole thing but there were many who really wanted to make totally vernacular Masses a reality and there were problems with the Missal of 1965. The ICEL (or it may have been a predecessor group) was given, at one point, five years to get a more faithful translation done (according to my pastor). When time passed without much progress, the Vatican eventually took a lot of the control from the ICEL and similar groups that were working on other vernacular translations. That is when Vox Clara took over the process. Since then, things have move faster but “fast” is a relative term. 😉 Vox Clara was only formed in 2002. We are likely to be using the new translation by Advent of 2010. So that’s lightening speed for liturgical change done by committee.
 
I have never denied or rejected that “Credo” is translated “I believe.”

I am simply maintaining that the Church decided that English-speaking Roman Catholics should pray “We believe” when praying the Creed at Mass in accordance with the Missal of Paul VI.

Nothing more, nothing less.
I wouldn’t go so far as “should”. It would be more accurate to say that if English speaking Roman Catholics insisted on saying the Creed in English rather than Latin, “We believe” was an acceptable temporary translation while the more faithful translation was being worked out. We “should” be praying the Creed in Latin according to the documents of Vatican II upon which the Missal of Paul VI is based.
 
I have never denied or rejected that “Credo” is translated “I believe.”

I am simply maintaining that the Church decided that English-speaking Roman Catholics should pray “We believe” when praying the Creed at Mass in accordance with the Missal of Paul VI.

Nothing more, nothing less.
And that is what is so frustrating to me. I sincerely wish that I could get you to understand the difference between something done by ICEL and something done by the Church.

The Church never decided to change the text to “we believe.” ICEL made that decision. So that I don’t have to repeat it in another post, ICEL made that decision. Somehow, and I do not know how, somehow ICEL managed to get this translation past the English-speaking bishops, as well as the people working at the Holy See who reviewed their translations. The texts were approved, in spite of the wrong translation. A few years passed (a little more than a decade) before someone with enough authority in the Church actually took notice. That was the early 1980s. It has taken from then until now for the correction to finally be made.

Correction:
I’ve just reviewed some sources, and apparently it was Jorge Cardinal Medina Estevez sometime (shortly) before Liturgiam Authenticam in 1997 (final version 2001), who was that person who had enough authority to finally make something happen.
 
Here is a link to a letter by Card. Medina from 1999
Note that this letter is dated October 1999, and makes many references to problems that have persisted for “a number of years”
adoremus.org/2-00-medinaletter.html
Here’s an excerpt from the text:

In seeking to fulfill its mandate of ensuring that translations accurately and fully convey the content of the original texts, the Dicastery for a number of years now has communicated its concerns regarding an undue autonomy that has been observed in the translations prepared by the Mixed Commission. These observations have often been countered with unfounded charges of personal grudges and hostility to the Commission. In reality, the lack of response to the Holy See’s stated concerns on the part of those who have effectively had in hand the work of the Commission has often hampered and delayed the Congregation’s work to a notable degree, also occasioning a disproportionate commitment of its resources.

In their contacts with the Dicastery, not a few Bishops have expressed concerns not only about the quality of the translations produced by the Mixed Commission but also about procedures which they felt limited their own ability to obtain corrections and improvements that they considered necessary for the accuracy of the texts. Increasingly, the Mixed Commission’s texts paraphrase or redraft the editiones typicae, while revising the rubrics so extensively as to impede effective recourse to the Latin text for the sake of clarification. In fact, the texts and the rubrics have sometimes been altered in substance without prior authorization from the Holy See, and indeed without even a request for such authorization. These concerns of the Congregation have recently been reinforced and have found authoritative confirmation in the instructions received by the Congregation for the preparation of new norms of liturgical translation.
 
So…you’re saying mistakes in worship are ok, right?
NO, diggerdomer, I’m not. When did I say it was ok?
After all, the Church, for whatever reason, authorized them, right? Mistakes are mistakes, but as long as they’re authorized by the Church they’re ok. No problem.
You don’t know me very well. I think the mistakes in the translation ARE a big problem… lex orandi, lex credendi. The mistranslation of the word credo might not be a big deal (it’s not doctrinal), but there are other mistakes (even in the Creed) which can affect the faith of English-speaking Catholics. “Seen and unseen” doesn’t mean the same thing as “visible and invisible”, for example. “Was born of the Virgin Mary and became man” does not mean the same thing as “was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man.”

Let me make this as plain as I can: some person/people in the Church slipped up big time in approving the poor English translation of the Mass we’ve been enduring the past few decades, and some person/people screwed up even before then by producing such a bad translation. Why? I don’t know. Motive? I’d rather not guess, but I’d say it was a misguided attempt at “inculturation” by introducing (for no good reason) national variations. That’s why the U.S. Missal currently has multiple possible Collects for most Sundays and feasts – the translators made one up. And they created the “Christ has died” Memorial Acclamation which is unlike the three canonical Latin ones (which are spoken from the first person plural and are addressed to Christ). No matter their intention, the effect is that American Catholicism starts to seem independent of Rome.
 
23 years.

Centuries?? (as you claim)

Yes, my math is apparently no better than yours.
For charity’s sake, will you please tone down your attitude?! I will report you if you keep responding with such disdain for your fellow forum-goers.

Read all of Fr. David’s post and you’ll see that it has taken the Church centuries since the Good Friday prayers were written to remove the word perfides from the prayer for Jews and then restructure that prayer.
 
I have never denied or rejected that “Credo” is translated “I believe.”

I am simply maintaining that the Church decided that English-speaking Roman Catholics should pray “We believe” when praying the Creed at Mass in accordance with the Missal of Paul VI.

Nothing more, nothing less.
I just say it in Latin, even when everyone else is saying it in English.
 
Here is a link to a letter by Card. Medina from 1999
Note that this letter is dated October 1999, and makes many references to problems that have persisted for “a number of years”
And here’s a later letter from Cardinal Medina from 2002 to English-speaking Conferences of Bishops which describes a few of the necessary changes to be made.
… there are additional substantial reasons for which this Congregation is regrettably unable to accord the recognitio to this text in the form in which it was submitted. A summary of the principal reasons may be found in the Observations enclosed with the present letter. Though these are extensive, they are not intended to be exhaustive, even in a generic sense. It has become apparent in the course of this Dicastery’s examination that a truly exhaustive presentation of the inadequacies of the translation would best be made in the form of an integral annotated or reworked text, and in the continued anticipation of a Mixed Commission operating under statutes approved by this Dicastery in accordance with the Instruction Liturgiam authenticam, such an instrument would not yet be feasible.

This Congregation has been prepared from the beginning to spare no efforts in arriving at a solution to this difficulty that would have avoided the present impasse.
Here are some of the flaws of the translation that had been proposed:
The proposed text would change significantly the structure of the Ritus initiales for Masses celebrated on Sundays, Feasts, and Solemnities. It would thus appear to exclude that the Actus paenitentialis be used together with the Gloria, as prescribed by the Missale Romanum for the majority of the Sundays of the liturgical year. In any event, the disposition of prayers in the Missal is not at the discretion of the translators, and the ordering of the texts, including the integral structure and sequence of the Ritus initiales, should be restored to that of the editio typica [tertia]. In addition, the Missal should be published as a single book for use on all days of the year, without fragmentation into parts.

The Structure of the Collects: Relative clauses often disappear in the proposed text (especially the initial Deus, qui . . ., so important in the Latin Collects), so that a single oration is divided into two or more sentences. This loss is detrimental not only to the unity of the structure, but to the manner of conveying the proper sense of the posture before God of the Christian people, or of the individual Christian. The relative clause acknowledges God’s greatness, while the independent clause strongly conveys the impression that one is explaining something about God to God. Yet it is precisely the acknowledgement of the mirabilia Dei that lies at the heart of all Judaeo-Christian euchology. The quality of supplication is also adversely affected so that many of the texts now appear to say to God rather abruptly: “You did a; now do b.” The manner in which language expresses relationship to God cannot be regarded merely as a matter of style.

In an effort to avoid completely the use of the term “man” as a translation of the Latin homo
, the translation often fails to convey the true content of that Latin term, and limits itself to a focus on the congregation actually present or to those presently living. The simultaneous reference to the unity and the collectivity of the human race is lost. The term “humankind”, coined for purposes of “inclusive language”, remains somewhat faddish and ill-adapted to the liturgical context, and, in addition, it is usually too abstract to convey the notion of the Latin homo. The latter, just as the English “man”, which some appear to have made the object of a taboo, are able to express in a collective but also concrete and personal manner the notion of a partner with God in a Covenant who gratefully receives from him the gifts of forgiveness and Redemption. At least in many instances, an abstract or binomial expression cannot achieve the same effect.

In the Creed, which has unfortunately also maintained the first-person plural “We believe” instead of the first-person singular of the Latin and of the Roman liturgical tradition, the above-mentioned tendency to omit the term “men” has effects that are theologically grave. This text *“For us and for our salvation” - no longer clearly refers to the salvation of all, but apparently only that of those who are present. The “us” thereby becomes potentially exclusive rather than inclusive.

After the Orate, fratres, the people’s response Suscipiat Dominus sacrificium de manibus tuis . . . has been distorted, apparently for purposes of “inclusive language”: “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of God’s name, for our good, and the good of all the Church.” The insertion of the possessive God’s gives the impression that the Lord who accepts the sacrifice is different from God whose name is glorified by it. The Church is no longer his Church, and is no longer called holy * a flaw in the previous translation that one might have hoped would be corrected.

For the Church, the neuter pronoun “it” is always used, instead of “she”. So designated, the Church can appear to be a mere social aggregate, deprived of much of the mystery that has been emphasized especially in relatively recent teaching by the Magisterium. The pronoun “it” does not seem to refer properly to the reality of the Church, portrayed by Divine Revelation as our Mother and Christ’s Bride.
I suggest reading the whole list.
 
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