We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

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. Even our triumphalistic sister does not think that the Church is the building (though as a matter of fact the English word “church” did originally mean the building!).

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Edwin

i believe Jesus Christ is in the building of the Catholic Churches… If that makes me triumphalistic… so be it…

(can’t figure out why that would be pergorative term anyway… hmmm :coffeeread: )

In fact… scratch that…

i KNOW He is there…

 

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I came to know the Lord Jesus Christ 7 yr before I converted to the Catholic Church. I had some experiences that lead me to the Catholic Church. But i know that if i came to know the Lord outside of the Catholic Church, others have to. Many of those people do not end up joining the Catholic Church like i did. When it comes right down to it, a persons relationship with the Lord is on a one on one basis. Church attentance is important, we should not forsake that as the Word says. I have friends that I know are true Christians and they are not Catholic.

yes but they are missing out…

and will, i feel, have to spend more time in Purgatory than those who are in full communion with the true Church…

 

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Luther was not seeking to destroy the Catholic Church. The fact that it still stands is evidence not that Luther failed but that the Church, responding to some of the issues Luther and other reformers raised, did some reforming of itself.

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the RCC woiuld have gone on for eternity with or without reform…

and besides, it is the people in the Church who are in need of reform, not the actual Chruch itself… ***The Church is much bigger than its the sum total of its individual members… because Christ is There 24/7… ***

 

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I asked you to show me where there is any “abuse” towards anyone here, yet you fail to answer me or to show me where there is such any abuse. You have a terrible persecution complex and I feel pity for you for not being in the church Christ founded. What is worse than that? You can see here that you’d like me to be banned, then there would be less Catholics here to speak of the truth.
To know you were Catholic and to turn away from the true faith must be utterly hurtful. I will pray for you.

yeah, i couldn’t figure out what he was talking about - you being rude… I’ve read your posts before (not all, but many) and don’t know where he gets that…

yet his posts are incredibly rude… and abrasive…

wonder why he left the Church??

 

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Luther was not seeking to destroy the Catholic Church.

you don’t know much about Luther, do you?

No serious Catholic theologian or apologist can or would deny that all was not right in the Catholic Church at the time of the Reformation.

there has never been and never will be a time when all is right in the Church … The Church is indestructable because Christ is in it… and protects it… in spite of its members, more than because of…

Ad hominem attacks on a man who has been dead for 460+ years are not the way to convince anyone of anything.

telling the truth is not ad homonim attacks… (except maybe subjectively speaking but i’m not a fan of subjectivity… )

 

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To say Luther was a heretic who caused confusion and chaos is to you an attack? Go figure…there was nothing wrong with the Catholic church at the time of the Reformation, except people like Luther who imagined it.

i totally agree… There was something wrong with some of its members but that has and always will be the case… i wish people could get that fact into their heads… that the Church and its members are not the same thing… (They should be “one” but they are not…)… Jesus promised His church would prevail…

there is actually more wrong in the Church today (people doing wrong) than back when Luther was around… (according to personal experience and also the BVM)

 

[distracted]

Hello distracted,

You know that this is hogwash. There are ways to share your faith with others without coming across as arrogant and condescending and “holier than thou.” While you and OTCA clearly have a zeal for your faith, you do come across with the attributes I listed above.

Was Christ arrogant and screaming at people to get them to convert? Not the Christ I read about in the Bible and from the Liturgy.

That’s all I have to say on the matter.

In Christ,
Andrew

hmmm… funny… i don’t see myself that way (arrogant, condescending…)… and i, obvoiusly, know myself better than you do… I also know myself better than i normally would because i have done a lot of self-searching, etc… but i don’t want to get too far beyond my main point… which is that…

if you see such traits… it could be you are projecting…

seeing faults in others that you really don’t like in yourself…

If i were arrogant or whatever, i would admit it… (we devout Catholics are usually good at confessing our sins…due to lots of practice… and also due to the examination of conscience that goes before sacramental confessions)…

anyway, name something i have said that is arrogant or condescending… and i will agree or disagree as truth leads me…

 

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That is the kind of arrogance & pride that can always been turned upside down. It was nothing once, & to nothing it can easily return. It’s been said, & very truly, that the Church is never more than one generation away from destruction​

Some abuses for you by 1517:​

• trafficking in relics
• trafficking in false relics
• clerical concubinage
• bastard offspring of these concubines (politely called “nephews”)
• holding of several benefices simultaneously, so as to gain their revenues
• trafficking in indulgences (which the Council of Trent explicitly admitted & deplored)
• the other face of pluralism - non-residence by bishops (one bishop entered his cathedral for the first time at his funeral)
• failure to provide bishops for vacant sees (a see in Iceland was vacant for 100 (one hundred) years)
• a swarming clerical proletariat of men with no education & no vocation (no seminaries existed yet)
• pervasive superstition & ignorance (St. Peter Canisius noticed this in Germany)
• and so it goes on…

The Church was in a horrible condition, & these horrors are not less horrid for not being the entire picture. To say “[t]here were no abuses within the Catholic church” is very off-putting when people are aware that there were. It’s ignorant at best to say were none, & at worst, it’s dishonest. And how is it good to defend a Church - a supposedly Christian body - with dishonesty ? The world is full of lies: .

big deal… so the Church is full of sinners… The blessed Virgin tells us that there is worse stuff in the Church today…

that is no reason to break away and have the audacity to start your own church (so called)… which of course led to other churches being formed ad nauseum… until the whole world is wondering what truth is… He who does not gather with me scatters… jesus said.

if the Church has only more lies to offer, then it is a moral danger, & the sooner it is destroyed, the better

obviously the Church does NOT have “lies to offer” and will never be destroyed because Jesus said he would protect it from error… (Satan, the author of all error)… I’m getting sick to death of hearing how the Church is this and the Church is that (bad thing)… when it is HUMANS who are corrupt… NOT Jesus Christ’s Church…

going into a Church doesn’t make you a Christian (Catholic) anymore than going into a garage makes you a car…

and when a rotten, messed up, about-to-die car drives into a garage and parks… the garage is not affected… except that others in the garage may not appreciate the noxious fumes…

 

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And who gave Jesus any authority ? What authority had the apostles ? (Answer to both questions: No-one.) Luther’s is no weaker than theirs.​

Being crucified is a pretty abject form of failure - He couldn’t even count on the loyalty of all his disciples: one betrayed him, another denied him with curses (the one he had called “Satan”), & the rest took to their heels. That’s not failure ?​

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wow… you really are into
“blaming the victim” aren’t you…

you don’t understand Christianity…

when you begin to, mabye we can have a discussion…

 

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hmmm… well, i guess i have a much different definition of Roman Catholic than you do…

 

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Distracted, any non-Catholics here find you annoying because they can’t face the truth. And they think I am rude because of the same thing. So be it.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

couldn’t resist…

 

[SpiritMeadow]

yes but they are missing out…

and will, i feel, have to spend more time in Purgatory than those who are in full communion with the true Church…

Well, everyone can have an opinion. Glad you won’t be in charge of such things. And btw…you may support OTCA all you wish of course, but do you not feel just the teensiest bit guilty of encouraging that which is ultimately harmful to your own Church? I get messages from folks and got one recently from a RC who is considering leaving the RCC because of the unbecoming meanness exhibited by people like OTCA. I counseled against such action based upon a few fanatical types here. But I repeat, are you helping the image of the RCC by this? Most of us think not, but of course, your losses appear to be our gains, so continue if you must.

 

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Why would you call me arrogant because I said the Catholic church has stood for 2,000 years? Do you have an issue with this? You want the church to be destroyed as you say here in your post, but sorry to disappoint you, Jesus said it will never happen. Is he being arrogant too?

yes, logically speaking, he would, of necessity, have to be arrogant too…

He also called people hypocrites and vipers and liars…

hmmm… :coffeeread:

hmm… What do we normally CALL people who use such terms??

well, i don’t know about you but i wouldn’t DARE call Jesus anything like arrogant… or whatever…

He is our judge, you know…

 

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Glad you won’t be in charge of such things.

So am I!!! Whew!!! .

, but do you not feel just the teensiest bit guilty of encouraging that which is ultimately harmful to your own Church?

oh yes… i would feel extremely guilty for doing anything to harm… well, Nothing can harm the Church, really, to speak of… but i would feel guilty about doing anything to harm the people in it or the people who WOULD go into it or what have you… yes i would…

if i knew of anything i said that was doing that, i would feel guilty. As it is, i have a clear conscience… because i speak the truth… If i choose words you don’t like to express the truth… well, that’s your problem… I can’t please everyone…

get messages from folks and got one recently from a RC who is considering leaving the RCC because of the unbecoming meanness exhibited by people like OTCA.

could you give me an example of OTCA being mean???

I repeat, are you helping the image of the RCC by this? Most of us think not, but of course, your losses appear to be our gains, so continue if you must.

havne’t a clue what you are talking about…My opinioin is you just want to distract people with this kind of personal attack…

 

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I get messages from folks and got one recently from a RC who is considering leaving the RCC because of the unbecoming meanness exhibited by people like OTCA. .

if a person left the RCC for a reason like THAT… or ANY reason…

well, it could be 1 or 2 things…

either s/he doesn’t know Catholicism (uncatechized)

and / or…

doesn’t want to live by its “rules”

and so… this person would, obviously, have left the Church regardless…

 

[SpiritMeadow]

So am I!!! Whew!!! .

oh yes… i would feel extremely guilty for doing anything to harm… well, Nothing can harm the Church, really, to speak of… but i would feel guilty about doing anything to harm the people in it or the people who WOULD go into it or what have you… yes i would…

These are not personal attacks on you, and that you know clearly. They are heartfelt offerings of genuine concern for the way you and others here portray a faith I care deeply about. You do not serve the RCC well, in my humble opinion. And frankly, it’s becoming a bit of a problem that I am always having to counsel people to not give up on the RCC because of the tenor of viciousness expressed by some here. There have been three occasions in the past month and that’s all be cause of the way non-Catholics and even Catholics are treated by OCTA and others like her. Thank goodness there aren’t many.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

if a person left the RCC for a reason like THAT… or ANY reason…

well, it could be 1 or 2 things…

either s/he doesn’t know Catholicism (uncatechized)

and / or…

doesn’t want to live by its “rules”

and so… this person would, obviously, have left the Church regardless…

First of all stop screaming at me.

Secondly, you have given the “pat” answer, all the time ignoring the real problem. Would you really want on your conscience that someone left your church because of your behavior? Right or wrong, that makes you a contributing factor. I would seriously rethink my behavior under such circumstances. Apparently you think, good riddence to such people. Send that response on to the Vatican and see what response you might get. Heck, send it to your parish priest.

 

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These are not personal attacks on you, and that you know clearly. They are heartfelt offerings of genuine concern for the way you and others here portray a faith I care deeply about. You do not serve the RCC well, in my humble opinion. And frankly, it’s becoming a bit of a problem that I am always having to counsel people to not give up on the RCC because of the tenor of viciousness expressed by some here. There have been three occasions in the past month and that’s all be cause of the way non-Catholics and even Catholics are treated by OCTA and others like her. Thank goodness there aren’t many.

whatever… i’m tired of arguing. you can think waht you want… but I am not changing one thing i do here…

i know the difference between fact, truth and opinion… too bad you think i am too stupid to know the difference…

and you called ME arrogant?

Ok… whatever…

 

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First of all stop screaming at me.

Secondly, you have given the “pat” answer, all the time ignoring the real problem. Would you really want on your conscience that someone left your church because of your behavior? Right or wrong, that makes you a contributing factor. I would seriously rethink my behavior under such circumstances. Apparently you think, good riddence to such people. Send that response on to the Vatican and see what response you might get. Heck, send it to your parish priest.

i’ll re-think my behavior when i have been shown to be wrong. So far… hasn’t happened…

If large print scares you, answer the posts w/ small print…

Would i wnat it on my conscience that someone left the RCC because of my behavior?

No… but i don’t have that to worry about… because, for one thing, like i said, a person is going to do what s/he is going to do regardless… Do you really think i have that kind of power???

do you really think people are THAT shallow that thye are going to leave the RCC just because of something some unknown person said on an internet forum???

you insult the entire human race…

 

[SpiritMeadow]

whatever… i’m tired of arguing. you can think waht you want… but I am not changing one thing i do here…

i know the difference between fact, truth and opinion… too bad you think i am too stupid to know the difference…

and you called ME arrogant?

Ok… whatever…

You have introduced the concept of stupidity. Frankly it would not occur to me that you were stupid. Your posts belie that. My remarks merely reflect the truth that everyone’s opinion on what they consider truth is often different, and no one can prove theirs is more truth than anothers. We all have opinions. There is no arrogance in saying that I don’t claim truth no more than any human can. It is impossible. Perhaps your being tired prevented you from reading what I said in context. Blessings, and get some rest! It has been a long and busy Pentecost after all.