We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[phoenix3212]

Why are there so many Catholic orders and groups and individuals with different beliefs? Why have I heard so many sisters say I think I should be allowed to be ordained? Why doesn’t the church see my full talents? Or Catholic laity say “I wish my church encouraged me to study the Bible like you.” The Roman Church is not a monolith like so many here purport. Of course the response will be that those who differ a bit are not truly of the church…

The thing with protestantism is that the vast majority of its members don’t think Catholics are going to perdition, but from what I have experienced on this webforum, I am not so sure about our Catholic brethren and their feelings about us.

I will try to give an honest answer here.

We Catholics know there are huge problems with the Church. Immense problems. Yet, no active member contends that such problems are doctrinal in nature. The modern Catholic Church faces a changing social landscape, a disproportionate ratio of fallen-away Catholics to new converts, widespread misconceptions about our beliefs and things having to do with the relevance of the Church in the modern age. We get that, and this is something we Catholics will have to sort out and fix together.

Why have you seen so many sisters seeking to be ordained? I don’t know. There have always been people who have desired more from the Church, and who wonder why things aren’t this way or that way. That’s never going to change. And on your point about the lay person who asked “I wish my church encouraged me to study the Bible like you.” We know that Catholic education is sorely lacking, and that the faithful aren’t being engaged in the faith enough as many would like. There appears to be a growing and extraordinarily positive sentiment amongst today’s Catholics to study and read the Bible, but it isn’t widespread enough.

The Catholic Church is a monolith. It’s huge, and remains the largest organized body of believers in the world. With something that monolithic, it becomes difficult to manage effectively. I imagine that His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI knows about the massive problems we have, and is doing his absolute best to resolve them. We need to create a culture of virtuousness and charity, but for whatever reason, that has become much harder in today’s world. I trust God that things will improve in the end.

And be assured that most Catholics believe that the majority of Protestants will go to heaven. They’re our brothers and sisters in Christ, and hold the goodness inherent to the human race.

 

[motstraumen]

I will try to give an honest answer here.

We Catholics know there are huge problems with the Church. Immense problems. Yet, no active member contends that such problems are doctrinal in nature. The modern Catholic Church faces a changing social landscape, a disproportionate ratio of fallen-away Catholics to new converts, widespread misconceptions about our beliefs and things having to do with the relevance of the Church in the modern age. We get that, and this is something we Catholics will have to sort out and fix together.

Why have you seen so many sisters seeking to be ordained? I don’t know. There have always been people who have desired more from the Church, and who wonder why things aren’t this way or that way. That’s never going to change. And on your point about the lay person who asked “I wish my church encouraged me to study the Bible like you.” We know that Catholic education is sorely lacking, and that the faithful aren’t being engaged in the faith enough as many would like. There appears to be a growing and extraordinarily positive sentiment amongst today’s Catholics to study and read the Bible, but it isn’t widespread enough.

The Catholic Church is a monolith. It’s huge, and remains the largest organized body of believers in the world. With something that monolithic, it becomes difficult to manage effectively. I imagine that His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI knows about the massive problems we have, and is doing his absolute best to resolve them. We need to create a culture of virtuousness and charity, but for whatever reason, that has become much harder in today’s world. I trust God that things will improve in the end.

And be assured that most Catholics believe that the majority of Protestants will go to heaven. They’re our brothers and sisters in Christ, and hold the goodness inherent to the human race.

Thank you for your ind and speedy reply. It was truly enlightening. It is Catholics like you who will further the cause of unity with the dispersed brethren in the Protestant world. I still don’t know if I agree it is a monolith, but that is ok. The Lutheran Church numbers over 60 million worldwide and has different views within, but share a common heritage, the biggest one is that we long to be unified with our Roman brothers and sisters again. To just write off Luther though as some crazy and to throw that in our face as distracted has so often done, does no good. The dialogue was intitiated on both sides out of good faith and the hope healing could be brought about by prayer and fellowship. We have come a long way, and God has been there with us.

 

[Louie1983]

Why are there so many Catholic orders and groups and individuals with different beliefs? Why have I heard so many sisters say I think I should be allowed to be ordained? Why doesn’t the church see my full talents? Or Catholic laity say “I wish my church encouraged me to study the Bible like you.” The Roman Church is not a monolith like so many here purport. Of course the response will be that those who differ a bit are not truly of the church…

The thing with protestantism is that the vast majority of its members don’t think Catholics are going to perdition, but from what I have experienced on this webforum, I am not so sure about our Catholic brethren and their feelings about us.

What Catholic orders have different beliefs? The marounite, coptic, melkite and other rights all have the same belief and teachings when it comes to the eucharist, the church, everything! It’s just a different culture, that’s all. There is no difference in teachings of the faith. Where did you get that idea from? I can see where they may seem different especially if your not very familiar with the different rites and why they are there.

Sisters saying they should be allowed to be ordained? That is their personal feeling and opinion. Obviously this is not the teachings of the church, the church says men can only be ordained as priests. People have their opinion and choose whether they want to believe or not.

Who says the church doesn’t see your full talents? the church teaches that god has given everyone gifts and talents! however we use them is up to us - we can choose the right way or the wrong way.

Catholic laity saying that they wish they knew the bible like you? That’s because they haven’t bothered to study the faith themselves! they expect it to put on a silver platter. If you know the catholic faith then you will know the catholic faith is bible study par excellence! There are literally millions of resources that catholics can use to learn the bible and the teachings of the church.

Catholics don’t think that protestants are going to hell either, we catholics know however that the catholic church is the pillart of truth because Jesus is in his Holy Catholic church. No catholic can say that he/she is going to hell, thi is not for us to decide. It’s god’s alone!

 

[PA650]

the Church is not divided… some pepole long ago decided to separate from Her…

The RCC is still intact and always will be (st Mt 16:18)

Although they would state that the Church of Rome separated herself from Christ’s Church. For example, the Bishop of Rome goes from a “first among equals” to an universal Bishop of all apostolic churches. I’m familiar with the Catholic point of view, but the claims of the Orthodox are trust as valid. An in depth study of the Reformation and of Eastern Orthodoxy has halted any possible ideas of myself becoming Catholic. Yet, I’ll still strive for any possible unity among Christians.

 

[Thorwald]

I can reply that they do not only seem to be so, but that they are actually dead sure. What would be the use of any bureau for the dispensing of authentic information, if the officials had to warn inquirers that there was not even certainty as to whether they had gone to the right inquiry office! No. The True church which is really Christ’s own bureau for the dispensing of authentic information to mankind in His Name, must be visibly discernible as His. The invisible and undiscernible Church theory is impossible, and as I have just said, opposed to the Will of Christ.
Furthermore, Protestants are brought up with the idea that it is not possible for any human being to locate the True Church. So they continue in religious matters to wander where they will, like people in a forest, who follow any line of tracks without bothering to ask where it leads. And they love the risky adventure of experimenting for themselves that they search Scripture for every possible text which they think will support them…go figure…

At least you got one word right…“DEAD”.

 

[Louie1983]

At least you got one word right…“DEAD”.

right…

 

[motstraumen]

What Catholic orders have different beliefs? The marounite, coptic, melkite and other rights all have the same belief and teachings when it comes to the eucharist, the church, everything! It’s just a different culture, that’s all. There is no difference in teachings of the faith. Where did you get that idea from? I can see where they may seem different especially if your not very familiar with the different rites and why they are there.

Sisters saying they should be allowed to be ordained? That is their personal feeling and opinion. Obviously this is not the teachings of the church, the church says men can only be ordained as priests. People have their opinion and choose whether they want to believe or not.

Who says the church doesn’t see your full talents? the church teaches that god has given everyone gifts and talents! however we use them is up to us - we can choose the right way or the wrong way.

Catholic laity saying that they wish they knew the bible like you? That’s because they haven’t bothered to study the faith themselves! they expect it to put on a silver platter. If you know the catholic faith then you will know the catholic faith is bible study par excellence! There are literally millions of resources that catholics can use to learn the bible and the teachings of the church.

Catholics don’t think that protestants are going to hell either, we catholics know however that the catholic church is the pillart of truth because Jesus is in his Holy Catholic church. No catholic can say that he/she is going to hell, thi is not for us to decide. It’s god’s alone!

Their basic belief might be the same,which is great, but I see just as much competition among them as any Protestant denomination. I think your statement about the Catholic Laity is unfair. From these people that I have known all my life they have said many times they were discouraged from going too deep. And about the sisters, the church may say this, but there are scriptural references to female apostles and teachers. That is why the Lutheran Church has been ordaining women for forty or more years, if you go beyond the US borders to the churches in Europe. And thanks for not thinking we go to hell, but there are clearly those on here that think Luther did, as well as other Reformers, rhetoric like that does no one anygood,and does in fact infer that we are on the road to the same place. If you read Lutheran books from a mere fifty or more years ago they point out the same type of thing when it deals with the Catholic church and your Popes, and it is not helpful to our dialogue, it builds a wall that the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation have worked hard through Christ and his Spirit to bring down.

 

[djeter]

The title of your forum reminded me of Flannery O’Connor’s remark that “Smugness is the great Catholic sin.” It always makes me chuckle.

Fr. Robert Barron is a powerful advocate for a Christianity rooted in spiritual praxis, not abstraction. He laments that Christian spirituality – as originally expressed in liturgy, practice, and apprenticeship – has been attenuated and transformed into a beige, bland approximation of its former self.

It has become little more than a faint echo of its enveloping secular culture or another set of private convictions. In his book “The Strangest Way” Fr. Barron traces beginning of this long dreary process to the subjectivity, rationalism, and suspiciousness born of Cartesian philosophy in the so-called “Age of Enlightenment”. This cultural mindset was in turn taken up by Christian apologists like Schleiermacher, Tillich, and Rahner who reduced Christianity to something best understood as an interior, subjective experience. I’ve summarized some of his conclusions on my site. They seem applicable to what you are all writing here.

You’ll find the Fr. Barron piece under “The State of the Catholic Church” category.

God bless,

DJ

 

[JonNC]

At least you got one word right…“DEAD”.

Ok, just curious. What actually do you mean here?

Jon

 

[distracted]

People mistakenly think that there is an earthly organization that is the one true church. **The true church is **not an organization, not a series of buildings, but the body of true believers. The true church consists of those who are regenerate; that is, it consists of those who are the true Christians. There are, however, churches that are Christian and churches that are not Christian.

the RCC teaches this, basically. It teaches that those who are following Christ (not cults) are in communion w/ the Roman Church, just not perfectly…

Even so, the Catholic Church has the Real Presence and NO other church has that…

 

[distracted]

I think the only ones here with a God complex are you and OTAC

actually i am Jesus and Jesus is God so i guess you are right…

(st Mt 25:31-46)

whatever you do to one of Christ’s followers, you do to Him…

so i might as well be him… an alter Christi as the Church teaches…

and if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father…

 

[distracted]

Their basic belief might be the same,which is great, but I see just as much competition among them as any Protestant denomination. I think your statement about the Catholic Laity is unfair. From these people that I have known all my life they have said many times they were discouraged from going too deep. And about the sisters, the church may say this, but there are scriptural references to female apostles and teachers. That is why the Lutheran Church has been ordaining women for forty or more years, if you go beyond the US borders to the churches in Europe. And thanks for not thinking we go to hell, but there are clearly those on here that think Luther did, as well as other Reformers, rhetoric like that does no one anygood,and does in fact infer that we are on the road to the same place. If you read Lutheran books from a mere fifty or more years ago they point out the same type of thing when it deals with the Catholic church and your Popes, and it is not helpful to our dialogue, it builds a wall that the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation have worked hard through Christ and his Spirit to bring down.

i get the feeling Lutherans and others don’t just want dialogue… they want to change the RCC’s mind on things. Good luck… that’s all i can say…

The RCC came LONG before Luther and the various other dissenters…

Jesus didn’t choose women apostles… That seems pretty clear-cut to me… Man-made churches do this kind of thing but the true Church, like God, does not change…

 

[distracted]

Although they would state that the Church of Rome separated herself from Christ’s Church. For example, the Bishop of Rome goes from a “first among equals” to an universal Bishop of all apostolic churches. I’m familiar with the Catholic point of view, but the claims of the Orthodox are trust as valid. An in depth study of the Reformation and of Eastern Orthodoxy has halted any possible ideas of myself becoming Catholic. Yet, I’ll still strive for any possible unity among Christians.

you’re going to let some man-made event keep you from joining the original Church?

(and there is only ONE Church)

 

[distracted]

Thank you for your ind and speedy reply. It was truly enlightening. It is Catholics like you who will further the cause of unity with the dispersed brethren in the Protestant world. I still don’t know if I agree it is a monolith, but that is ok. The Lutheran Church numbers over 60 million worldwide and has different views within, but share a common heritage, the biggest one is that we long to be unified with our Roman brothers and sisters again. To just write off Luther though as some crazy and to throw that in our face as distracted has so often done, does no good. The dialogue was intitiated on both sides out of good faith and the hope healing could be brought about by prayer and fellowship. We have come a long way, and God has been there with us.

i’m entitled to my opinion… which is based on Luther’s own words, more than anything else…

A lot of protestants seem to worship Luther like they claim Catholics worship saints…

 

[distracted]

Although they would state that the Church of Rome separated herself from Christ’s Church. For example, the Bishop of Rome goes from a “first among equals” to an universal Bishop of all apostolic churches. I’m familiar with the Catholic point of view, but the claims of the Orthodox are trust as valid. An in depth study of the Reformation and of Eastern Orthodoxy has halted any possible ideas of myself becoming Catholic. Yet, I’ll still strive for any possible unity among Christians.

does the bible call him 1st among equals?

 

[Louie1983]

Their basic belief might be the same,which is great, but I see just as much competition among them as any Protestant denomination. I think your statement about the Catholic Laity is unfair. From these people that I have known all my life they have said many times they were discouraged from going too deep. And about the sisters, the church may say this, but there are scriptural references to female apostles and teachers. That is why the Lutheran Church has been ordaining women for forty or more years, if you go beyond the US borders to the churches in Europe. And thanks for not thinking we go to hell, but there are clearly those on here that think Luther did, as well as other Reformers, rhetoric like that does no one anygood,and does in fact infer that we are on the road to the same place. If you read Lutheran books from a mere fifty or more years ago they point out the same type of thing when it deals with the Catholic church and your Popes, and it is not helpful to our dialogue, it builds a wall that the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation have worked hard through Christ and his Spirit to bring down.

Sorry but wrong again, I happen to be a marounite and i can 100% guarantee you that there is no “competition” between the rites. Every year there are dozens of gatherings between all the rites, between the laity, between the bishops, priests, nuns apologists. I see the emlkites hosting the marounites, the roman catholics hosting the melkites and so on and so forth. Every rite say the creed during mass, all profess allegiance to the church the pope and the teachings! Sorry but there is no competition going on there. This may be the attitude of some people and priests but it is definately the attitude of the church as a whole!

My comment about the catholic laity unfair? possibly. But in regards to the people who i have known all my life and who have left the church the reason was because they could not understand or didn’t want to understand, if they disgreed with the teachings then fair enough but this usually was caused their lack of knowledge or unwillingness to learn more.

Women being ordained as priests - There may have been scriptural evidence of women preaching and teaching (we have women apologists today!) but again scripture (therefore jesus) confirms that women cannot become priests! The priesthood was for man and man alone, this is why Jesus only breathed on the apostles, this is why he said to them the sins you bound are bound and the sins you loose are loosed in heaven. If Jesus had wanted women to be priests, would he have not done this to the women also? Jesus being God incarnate possessed all the knowledge and truth and he deliberately made the actions to men, not women. If he intended for women to become priests he would have made it clear by giving them authority but he hasn’t!

Luther - Listen peope are entitled to their opinion, no-one should ever say that luther went to hell or to heaven (we just don’t know , it is not our place to say). However, the church does teach if you are an informed catholic and reject church teaching then your soul is in grave sin. Luther knew this as he was a priest! But again, where he’s soul is now is not for any person to decide.

“If you read Lutheran books from a mere fifty or more years ago they point out the same type of thing when it deals with the Catholic church and your Popes, and it is not helpful to our dialogue, it builds a wall that the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation have worked hard through Christ and his Spirit to bring down”

Regarding the above, let’s not beat around the bush here. As a catholic i know i’m part of the true church of Jesus Christ and i will say this to anyone who wishes to listen, If you find difficult to understand or take then i’m sorry but it won’t stop me or any other Catholic from saying so. I won’t compromise my faith just because other people disagree with it. I agree with you 100% that we should we respectfull to each other and love each other (Christ commanded us to do so) but there is truth and there is error, and if you are to be a loyal servant to jesus and his church then there are times where you will have to say things that are difficult to say. But it’s all for his glory!

 

[Hesychios]

does the bible call him 1st among equals?

It does not call him:

• Metropolitan of Rome
• Primate of Italy
• Patriarch of the West
• Pope

What the Bible does show is that the power to bind and loose is given to him, and then to the other Apostles. That is pretty significant.

Yet there is no evidence anywhere that Saint Peter gave the other Apostles their assignments (Thomas to India, etc.), or had to approve the elevation of men like Timothy to the episcopate.

His role did not encompass such things. So what better term for him than first among equals? All of the titles are post-Apostolic designations. What we need is a title that reflects each bishop’s true responsibilities.

The Pope’s of the ninth century did not have the authority a Pope of the nineteenth century would claim. Restore the Papacy to the First Millenium church and you will have an Orthodox Pope, a First Among Equals.

 

[Harpazo]

A lot of protestants seem to worship Luther like they claim Catholics worship saints…

Things like this will inflame people and only push them away. Do you want to see Protestants become Catholic or not? Rhetoric like this regardless of your opinion can upset and harm people from seeing your point of view. They might equate your words and actions with that of all Catholics. While that might sound silly, it does happen. Would you want that to happen?

I have never heard of any Protestant “worshiping Luther” or Wesley or Calvin for that matter. Many of them see those men as pillars of their faith, but certainly they don’t worship them any more than Catholics worship the Pope.

does the bible call him 1st among equals?

Why would the Bible have to call the Pope primus inter pares? I thought Catholics didn’t believe that everything pertaining to the faith had to come from Holy Writ.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[PA650]

Even so, the Catholic Church has the Real Presence and NO other church has that…

What of the Eastern Orthodox churches not in communion with the Bishop of Rome? They still hold apostolic succession and the real presence.

you’re going to let some man-made event keep you from joining the original Church?

(and there is only ONE Church)

Although the Orthodox will disagree on some theological points of Luther, Luther nevertheless raised important questions relating to the papacy that can be in aligned with the Orthodox faith.

does the bible call him 1st among equals?

Biblical interpretation can be a factor here. The RCC will state the Church of Christ was founded on St. Peter albeit the Orthodox will state the verse in Matthew pertains to his faith.

In the end, all Christians share much commonality and the argument that “I’m part of Christ’s true church” can become quite tedious, especially with regard to a secular or non-religious audience. Religious debates based on pure dogmatic statements create friction, not unity.

 

[distracted]

It does not call him:

• Metropolitan of Rome
• Primate of Italy
• Patriarch of the West
• Pope

.

Trinity is not in the bible either…

the word Bible is not in the Bible…

the word Purgatory isnt either but there IS a purgatory and it is alluded to in many scriptures…

Peter was the 1st pope…

There had to be a pope because Jesus was ascending into Heaven and the Church had to be propagated and continued until the end.

Jesus told Peter to “feed [His] lambs”… he told him this 3 times…