We Changed the Church and Regret It

[thealtonroute]

There were things that needed to be changed in the Church in the early 1960s; the Mass wasn’t one of them. Parish councils were formed here after Vatican II, which I think is a great idea. The problem is that a few years afterward priests abolished them. If Vatican II had left the Mass alone and changed the governance of parishes to include parishioners, I’d consider V-II brilliant. If parishes were run by boards instead of priests, and priests and bishops were true spiritual leaders, the Church would be a lot stronger today. I’m sure lay boards would have stopped V-II priests from destroying church interiors. The Mass should belong to the priest and the parish should belong to the people. I really think we would have better priests if that were the case; we would have priests who are interested in faith instead of exerting power over others.

 

[po18guy]

where in the world did you ever see such a thing? in the TLM? i think you are confused. this all happens in teh OF Mass. i had to walk out once because of that. at night Mass, teenagers with cameras and cellular during the whole Mass. it bothered me so much taht i walked out. i never saw this ever in the TLM. ever. they have a total reverent behave in teh TLM, not one sound in hte Church. not one. everybody just prays.

So, do you judge the NO as evil because of that?

 

[po18guy]

Have you attended TLM? The ones that I have attended in various parishes in no way come close to resembling your description. The majority of worshipers were young adults with very young children who, believe it or not, were very quiet during the mass as if Jesus was there talking to them. Not one cel-phone rang, no loud speaking, except for prayer response, and no short shorts or tank-tops, etc. All were civily and properly dressed and there was an aura of piety and spirituality which I find sadly missing in the NOM. Nostalgia, or not, TLM will supplant the NOM.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Do you suppose that the behavior of all will change from exposure to TLM?

 

[po18guy]

when we sin against God, the only thing to do is to go back and repent. you dont just continue in the error. no wonder we have this attitude that we dont have to repent. by the way, this seems to be a word of the past. modernists dont want anything to do with the past. the past means repent.

I am not a “modernist/liberal/unfaithful/progressive”. I oppose their heterodox beliefs and practices. I simply don’t understand your apparent link between repentance and abandoning a certain form of mass. Is the NO illicit?

 

[po18guy]

Show me where they declared it. I don’t think you will find a single one.

If you want to quote Vatican II documents how about SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM: 36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

Your nostelgia comment is offensive and shows a bias against the Mass that nutured and formed the greatest of saints.

The point which I was trying to make was that TLM is not pondered or considered in a vacuum (i,e, separated from surrounding factors) by some who speak of it. When they consider TLM, they may not separate it from the better state of world culture at the time in which TLM was universally celebrated.

 

[Layman]

One clarification…a consecrated host is not “taboo,” it is holy, it is the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a sacred gift entrusted to us by Our Lord and so we show it due reverence and protect it from abuses and try to avoid accidents.

Lay hands touching it was to be avoided. COTT, kneeling, reinforces this taboo. Learn by doing: the Host is important. Simpler and more direct than a lot of verbal ‘catechesis’, lack of which is constantly bemoaned on this forum.

 

[po18guy]

Dear po18guy,

Please take a moment to read our Holy Father’s brief letter to Bishops:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html

If you didn’t just read that and have no interest in hearing another perspective or having your points addressed by the Pope himself, then please stop posting put downs of the Latin Mass.

Is it possible to even discuss TLM without incurring the condemnation of my brothers?

1. I am not liberal/modernist/progressive/unfaithful. I just don’t speak Latin.
2. I absolutely do not question anything about TLM, except the ability of the poor and uneducated, such as myself, to understand what is being said.
3. I mentioned “nostalgia” only in the sense that some Catholics cannot/do not separate TLM from the prevailing societal and cultural conditions at the time when TLM was the norm; that their picture of TLM also contains images from a society which was better behaved and more respectful. I am not trying to be obtuse here.

Look, if the Church bans the NO, I will attend whatever form of mass is offered. Fair enough?

 

[ProVobis]

Do you suppose that the behavior of all will change from exposure to TLM?

Well, it’s not going to change if everyone reinforces their current habits.

 

[ProVobis]

Is it possible to even discuss TLM without incurring the condemnation of my brothers?

1. I am not liberal/modernist/progressive/unfaithful. I just don’t speak Latin.

Actually very few of those attending the EF speak Latin. However they at least can easily recognize the Latin prayers. I think it goes without saying that those who are never exposed to Latin will barely, if at all, recognize the prayers of the Latin Mass, either form. I’ll bet you can recognize the Spanish “Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos,” why not the Latin?

1. I absolutely do not question anything about TLM, except the ability of the poor and uneducated, such as myself, to understand what is being said.

More illiterates existed as the Latin Mass was flourishing in the West since the 3rd century.

Look, if the Church bans the NO, I will attend whatever form of mass is offered. Fair enough?

They’re not going to ban the OF. Not when it creates converts in Africa and Asia. However, do expect changes in the vernacular texts from time to time.

 

[wisdomseeker]

So, do you judge the NO as evil because of that?

i never called it that, you did. but one cannot simply close their eyes and refuse to see how the pauline Mass has changed overtime to be almost unrecognized. this tells me that God is not pleased with this Mass.
believe if you want, i do.

Paul VI called it something almost prophane. no one can deny the crisis that we have in the Church today. in the past we had crisis, sins of the clergy, true but never like a theological crisis as we are we are having today. this is a crisis of thelogical disaster, they changed the Mass and so did the theology. i think there is a connection here. the popes of the past have warned the Church of modernism and communism infiltrating the Church. i think they succeeded in infiltrating the Church and acomplished what they intended.

it is up to us recognize and not support such a thing.

 

[edwest2]

There were things that needed to be changed in the Church in the early 1960s; the Mass wasn’t one of them. Parish councils were formed here after Vatican II, which I think is a great idea. The problem is that a few years afterward priests abolished them. If Vatican II had left the Mass alone and changed the governance of parishes to include parishioners, I’d consider V-II brilliant. If parishes were run by boards instead of priests, and priests and bishops were true spiritual leaders, the Church would be a lot stronger today. I’m sure lay boards would have stopped V-II priests from destroying church interiors. The Mass should belong to the priest and the parish should belong to the people. I really think we would have better priests if that were the case; we would have priests who are interested in faith instead of exerting power over others.

Once again, this was not a “management problem.” Vatican II stressed the importance of the laity actually going out and doing something. Here, it appears to be “my priest didn’t tell me” as if people are incapable of asking questions.

We loved our priests. No one saw them as people who had “power” over us. I remember going to the rectory with my mother to talk to our pastor. Everyone was approachable. I think it’s wrong to even suggest that priests, as a group, were out for power. If anything, some people who had their own ideas of “reform” created a mess.

The handful of dissidents in the Church caused the mess, not Vatican II.

God bless,
Ed

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am not a “modernist/liberal/unfaithful/progressive”. I oppose their heterodox beliefs and practices. I simply don’t understand your apparent link between repentance and abandoning a certain form of mass. Is the NO illicit?

i couldnt tell you that. i am not the magisterium. i dont have such an authority. all i can tell you is that we are having a crisis not only of faith but also theological.
i think there is a link between what is going on in the Church and the Mass.

what i see is that no one seem to be concerned with repentance and return to God. this i dont see. it seems that we are going more and more away from God. we have been warned by the passed popes which no one wanted to talk about it. everybody seems to wanting to mention only the last 3 or 4 popes. this tells me something very significant.
many seem to be scared of the past, this is troubling to me.

 

[ProVobis]

The handful of dissidents in the Church caused the mess, not Vatican II.

I am of the school that thinks had Vatican II not been called, the “dissidents” would have found a way to carry through with their “agendas” eventually anyway. However, Vatican II just made it convenient for them as they took advantage of every loophole in the documents. And progressive thinking intensified. I don’t think, however, anyone in his wildest dreams actually thought a new Mass would be forthcoming back in 1962. Or CITH or altar girls either, for that matter.

 

[Renko]

I blame Vatican 2 for all the problems with the Catholic church today. We now have churches that look like barns, music that stinks big time, noise during mass so that you can’t even hear your ownself think and parish members that act like a bunch of hypocrits. Give me back the old traditional church when you could hear a pin drop any time you walked into a church and the Latin mass was awesome and reverant, the new mass is anything but. It stinks big time.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

i couldnt tell you that. i am not the magisterium. i dont have such an authority. all i can tell you is that we are having a crisis not only of faith but also theological.
i think there is a link between what is going on in the Church and the Mass.

what i see is that no one seem to be concerned with repentance and return to God. this i dont see. it seems that we are going more and more away from God. we have been warned by the passed popes which no one wanted to talk about it. everybody seems to wanting to mention only the last 3 or 4 popes. this tells me something very significant.
many seem to be scared of the past, this is troubling to me.

Hmmm…what is troubling to me is that people who call themselves traditional have found it apparent to judge everyone else and the NO Mass. I don’t get it.

I come on the traditional forumn to learn…to expand…not to be judge and hear about how bad the NO Mass is and that it is moving people away from God. I know, I know…you’ll just tell me that it is so…whatever.

I came back to the Church from our NO Mass…my husband is converting because of the NO Mass.

Now if Holy Mother Church tells me to change…I will listen to her. To you and ProVibs and others like you…it’s apparent that you are not interested in an even exchange of ideas. If you can’t explain what is special about the EF Mass WITHOUT putting down the NO…well, I have very little use for that.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Please read Discussing the EF and OF

Rude or disrespectful posters will be suspended. TC forum is to discuss the Catholic Tradition, not to bash anything or anyone.

Thomas Casey
Moderator

 

[pnewton]

Well, I don’t know of too many Protestant churches that aren’t in vernacular.

I don’t know. Ever been to a Charismatic Praise service?

 

[pnewton]

Paul VI called it something almost prophane. no one can deny the crisis that we have in the Church today. in the past we had crisis, sins of the clergy, true but never like a theological crisis as we are we are having today. .

I can deny it. I do not doubt that the Church has problems, and always has. However, I do not see today as even making the top ten crisis times. Twenty years ago when the pedophile problem was at the top of the news, it might have squeezed into the top ten.

Go outside of traditionalism to the Church at large and poll how many see the Church in a theological crisis. I think you will find it very possible to deny this crisis mentality.

 

[po18guy]

I want the TLM because it solves a lot of problems with the O.F., at one stroke. I’d say also that any school that went back to traditional teaching and methods wouldn’t be short of pupils these days, either. Nor would any priest who preached a few hellfire sermons and actually taught the harsh truths of our religion be short of a congregation, either.

God isn’t going to lead us directly. He uses men. Men make mistakes. You have to compare what you are being told with Tradition and the Bible. Clergy, Tradition and the Bible check us from veering from the Way and the Truth. Protestants have dumped two of these, and look how they fissure, now.

Either form is equally valid, and the reverence each of us takes to mass with us is the only thing that matters. The stupor of the 1960s is wearing off and orthodoxy and reverence are surely returning. However, the way that the Novus Ordo is sometimes spoken of, you would think that the Vatican had called upon Benny Hill to create it.

In discussing this or that, we often forget who the enemy is - how he works endlessly for the destruction of the Church. The most effective attack is always from within.

 

[po18guy]

i couldnt tell you that. i am not the magisterium. i dont have such an authority. all i can tell you is that we are having a crisis not only of faith but also theological.
i think there is a link between what is going on in the Church and the Mass.

what i see is that no one seem to be concerned with repentance and return to God. this i dont see. it seems that we are going more and more away from God. we have been warned by the passed popes which no one wanted to talk about it. everybody seems to wanting to mention only the last 3 or 4 popes. this tells me something very significant.
many seem to be scared of the past, this is troubling to me.

We blame the Church when the problem clearly is US! Look at the pitiful mess that God has to work with! Once again I am reminded of Jesus looking out upon the crowds - seeing them as “dejected and harassed - like sheep without a shepherd” (Matthew 9:36, Mark 6:34).