We Grew up with It

[Layman]

There’s a prescribed form for the Mass. Most Novus Ordo Masses today aren’t following it. Simple as that.

Bishop Basil is putting his spoon into another man’s pot and giving it a stir.

 

[Indyann]

There’s a prescribed form for the Mass. Most Novus Ordo Masses today aren’t following it. Simple as that.

Bishop Basil is putting his spoon into another man’s pot and giving it a stir.

OR

Perhaps, your pot is just too small to accept the veggies that bishopbasil wants to share.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

There’s a prescribed form for the Mass. Most Novus Ordo Masses today aren’t following it. Simple as that.

Bishop Basil is putting his spoon into another man’s pot and giving it a stir.

I agree. I’ve been to 3 Catholic churches since I moved from NJ and all three celebrated the Mass very differently. Even the Eucharistic Prayers vary widely, not to mention the music, and the other “local” practices such as hand-holding, hand clapping and the number of “greetings” that go on.

And please, please don’t insult me or all the other devout and orthodox NO supporters out there with some of your misguided assumptions. The fact we might not be in favour of having Latin in EVERY Mass doesn’t equate in any way to approval of ad libbing, deleting from or adding to a single jot or tittle of the prescribed text of the Mass.

I don’t think anyone really means to do that. I think we can point out the problems with the NO masses we attend and mourn the loss of what we had without intending to malign the people who are lucky enough to have the option of a reverent NO.

 

[Layman]

In reply:

Fruits of Vatican II.

Someone may reply and say: “but some of these are Protestant services”. To which I would in turn reply: “I sure hope so” and “How awful that the compiler could, in these liberal times, now easily make such a mistake.”

Enough is enough.

 

[almightyservant]

Sancto Spiritu:

It wasn’t celebrated perfectly, but it was so much better than the drivel that was passing for Mass in my parish. It was a SACRIFICE, and the text let you KNOW IT.

As much as I believe that the extraordinary form of the Mass is superior to the ordinary form, I find it very inappropriate to call the ordinary form of the Mass in your parish “drivel”. I hope that it is only your youth speaking.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

As much as I believe that the extraordinary form of the Mass is superior to the ordinary form, I find it very inappropriate to call the ordinary form of the Mass in your parish “drivel”. I hope that it is only your youth speaking.

Where did I call the Novus Ordo drivel? I applied that term to the abuses that were occurring- like glass chalices, a multitude of “extraordinary” ministers, altar girls, improper vestments, etc. I also apply it to those things that originated as serious abuses but were later embraced, like Communion in the hand.

 

[almightyservant]

Sancto Spiritu:

…but it was so much better than the drivel that was passing for Mass in my parish.

Please reread what I typed. I didn’t say you refered to the NO as drivel. My memory of grammar vocabulary is not fresh, but according to what you typed you stated that the ordinary form of Mass at your parish is drivel and “passing for Mass”. As imperfect as it may be, it is still a Mass. If that was not your intention then I have no further reason to admonish you

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Please reread what I typed. I didn’t say you refered to the NO as drivel. My memory of grammar vocabulary is not fresh, but according to what you typed you stated that the ordinary form of Mass at your parish is drivel and “passing for Mass”. As imperfect as it may be, it is still a Mass. If that was not your intention then I have no further reason to admonish you

I was using “drivel” to describe what I had mentioned earlier in that post:

I grew up with the typical "millions extraordinary ministers, rainbow chasuble, female altar servers in yucky white albs, glass chalice,* Here I am, Lord, is it I Lord? *Mass.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

There’s a prescribed form for the Mass. Most Novus Ordo Masses today aren’t following it. Simple as that.

Bishop Basil is putting his spoon into another man’s pot and giving it a stir.

And how do you know about this “most”? Every Mass I’ve been to in my current diocese and while travelling has indeed followed the prescribed form of the OF Mass. Unless you’ve been to ‘most’ OF Masses throughout the US or the world, you have evidence of what you are saying.

As I’ve said before, I am sure true abuses have happened. I too have seem the youtube clips. However, I have too often heard the same examples given over and over again to believe that in truth ‘most’ Masses throughout the US have that level of true abuses going on.

And again, I will say that variations and style differences do not an abuse make. We know that throughtout the Church’s history, there have been many reform movements and efforts to bring back reverance and devotion to the sacraments. That is nothing new for the 20th or 21st century.

But if those efforts to reform or renew go too far, you will only end up in the same situation on the other side. Please do not alienate people like me who also hope and pray every day that Catholics throughout the world come to practice their faith with strength and fervor.

Each rite within the Church and each form of the Mass used within those rites are all equally beautiful and pleasing to God.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I agree. I’ve been to 3 Catholic churches since I moved from NJ and all three celebrated the Mass very differently. Even the Eucharistic Prayers vary widely, not to mention the music, and the other “local” practices such as hand-holding, hand clapping and the number of “greetings” that go on.

The fact that three different priests chose a different Eucharistic Prayer or different style of music does not in anyway mean that the Masses you attended were abusive. It does not necessarily mean that the people there do not love God with all their heart. It only means that you might have selected differently if it were within your power.

If you are man who is not married, you should consider a vocation to the priesthood. I invite all the single men on this forum to consider that. If you would like to have the most impact on a more widely available EF, or a differnce in the way OF in your parish is said, please please prayerfully consider your vocation.

 

[human_being]

In all honesty, Brotherholf, I have not seen one word of chastisement or criticism of you in any of the responses to your question in this thread. BBasil was not directing anything at you personally, and none of my comments were directed at you, just answering your question.

I truly hope and pray that you will somehow be able to find some peace about the changes in the Church. You don’t have to like them, but I hope that you can someday come to terms with it, because we can’t ever go back to 40 years ago, it is not possible to turn the clock back, and we cannot undo the past. There is a lot of bitterness and resentment and sadness coming through in your posts, (and I’ve read many of your posts) and that can’t be easy to live with, and that is not spiritually healthy. I will pray for you that you find some peace. I mean that sincerely, and not as criticism. I can see how you have been suffering, and hope that the Lord can ease some of that.

I personally wish we could go back to alot of decent things of 40 years ago. The world is such a mess anymore. I wish they’d talk about the new encyclical at mass but haven’t even heard it mentioned at our mass yet. We need a leader in the church to help solidify us. This whole world is a constant conflict anymore. It’s like we need some catholic mandates or something. Protetstantism and the freemason ideals of pick and choose whatever you want to believe seems to have taken it’s toll. I like hearing about what some of you grew up with. But I was too stubborn to go to catholic school. And I’m in my 40’s and wish I knew the things you know. I still have to read certain parts of the mass too follow along. But there are still so many divisions. I even hear people disagreeing with the Pope with what he has written. It is protestant freemason type disharmony and confusion. The work of the devil. We need direction now more than ever. I wish He would concretely come out with comments on every sentence of his new encylical so it wasn’t up to dems and GOP’s to decypher it. It’s like protestants picking apart christianity and interpreting it in there own way all over again. And I’m included in the picking it apart. Concrete answers is what the world needs.IMO.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

And how do you know about this “most”? Every Mass I’ve been to in my current diocese and while travelling has indeed followed the prescribed form of the OF Mass. Unless you’ve been to ‘most’ OF Masses throughout the US or the world, you have evidence of what you are saying.

As I’ve said before, I am sure true abuses have happened. I too have seem the youtube clips. However, I have too often heard the same examples given over and over again to believe that in truth ‘most’ Masses throughout the US have that level of true abuses going on.

And again, I will say that variations and style differences do not an abuse make. We know that throughtout the Church’s history, there have been many reform movements and efforts to bring back reverance and devotion to the sacraments. That is nothing new for the 20th or 21st century.

But if those efforts to reform or renew go too far, you will only end up in the same situation on the other side. Please do not alienate people like me who also hope and pray every day that Catholics throughout the world come to practice their faith with strength and fervor.

Each rite within the Church and each form of the Mass used within those rites are all equally beautiful and pleasing to God.

The poster you’re referencing doesn’t explicitly say what “most” means, but your own anecdotal evidence is equally, if not more, invalid. You haven’t been to “most” Masses, either, so you can’t refute that claim.

But actually, it’s only logical that “most” Novus Ordo Masses are celebrated incorrectly.

Why?

Because, if most Masses were celebrated properly, we wouldn’t have a the problems we do. If they were celebrated properly, there wouldn’t be such outcry from the Catholic faithful. If they were celebrated properly, we wouldn’t be experiencing a “reform of the reform.” If they were celebrated properly, young people wouldn’t be leaving the Novus Ordo in droves to attend the extraordinary form.

You’re sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the obvious: The Novus Ordo, as it is celebrated in the vast majority of US parishes, is not the liturgy Vatican II gave us.

Don’t try to practice apologetics for the incorrect practices and insanely poor catechesis that occurs in average US parishes.

As for “variations” and “style,” deciding whether to ring a bell at the offertory is variation in style. Applying the EXCEPTION to say Mass ad populum to the entire US Church is not. Neither is conveniently forgetting that Latin is to be preserved in the liturgy.

 

[Layman]

By “most” I mean those Masses which do not follow the form prescribed by the Second Vatican Council. Most Masses now have things like CITH, the priest versus-populum, vernacular, folksy hymns, EMHCs etc. Some clergy and laity seem to think that the Second Vatican Council granted a licence to experiment.

If there’s a TLM near you, support it. Donate your time and money to keep it going. Evangelise for it.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

The fact that three different priests chose a different Eucharistic Prayer or different style of music does not in anyway mean that the Masses you attended were abusive. It does not necessarily mean that the people there do not love God with all their heart. It only means that you might have selected differently if it were within your power.

If you are man who is not married, you should consider a vocation to the priesthood. I invite all the single men on this forum to consider that. If you would like to have the most impact on a more widely available EF, or a differnce in the way OF in your parish is said, please please prayerfully consider your vocation.

I never said that the people there did not love God with all their heart, and I agree that the real issue is that I would have chosen to go to an OF or an EF without the ad-libbing in the Eucharistic prayer, the guitar and banjo music and the applause session prior to the dismissal for all the birthdays, anniversaries and whatever else Father can think of. I also could have done without the discourse on American Idol that went on between Father and the Music minister, but I digress.

I would love to consider a vocation to the Priesthood, but my gender and my sexual orientation forbid it.

 

[Layman]

and the applause session prior to the dismissal for all the birthdays, anniversaries and whatever else Father can think of.

That’s interesting, in a gossipy way. I saw a local priest do that. I thought it was just a quirk peculiar to him.

I think maybe liturgical novelties are like fashion in clothes. Someone starts something and it’s around the world before the Holy Father can get out of bed in the morning (figuratively speaking).

 

[mkingdomlvr]

That’s interesting, in a gossipy way. I saw a local priest do that. I thought it was just a quirk peculiar to him.

I think maybe liturgical novelties are like fashion in clothes. Someone starts something and it’s around the world before the Holy Father can get out of bed in the morning (figuratively speaking).

I agree, I think a lot of this stuff is viral. Someone goes on vacation and attends a Mass where they hold hands at the Our Father and the next thing you know, they want that at their Church.

The applause thing before dismissal makes me crazy-I’ll admit that it’s a personal opinion thing. First all the birthday people stand and get applause, then the anniversaries, then the visitors, then the veterans and military families…sure, it’s nice to see people recognized, but it really strikes me as a form of self worship. “Oh gee, aren’t we all wonderful, we came to Mass today!!!”

 

[thunderballs75]

I believe it was the Holy Father who said that applause at all during Mass turns the liturgy into theatre.

 

[adstrinity]

Alright, help me out here, what about, during PJPII’s funeral when everybody applauded? Was that after the Mass had concluded?

I was nearly scandalized by that until the announcer mentioned that it’s custom there.

 

[Layman]

I dunno. Most places in the West, applause implies approval of an artistic performance. Or a speech.

The Mass isn’t a performance requiring that form of approval from the ‘audience’. 'Though if the priest is facing the people, there’s a band or pianist up there, or, in a Church I know, a lone female singer singing in a recital style, there are cues to applaud.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Yet, the OP of this thread laments that things aren’t the way they used to be and wants things done his way. It cuts both ways, really. The so-called “traditionalists” insists that Mass be celebrated the way they want it to be. In a very real sense, they make the Mass about THEM (*“it’s what **I ***want”). Some on the right want do the exact same thing. Many here simply want and are perfectly happy with a reverent, abuse-free Mass. As you said, Mass is meant to glorify God.

That is a load of nonsense. You should retract that statement.

No sir. You, sir, simply do not understand what went on in 1969. You were not there. I was.

You did not grow up within not one but two reverent TLM parishes before 1967. You did not grow up with a Missa Canatata as the primary Sunday Mass in both parishes.
You were were not invited to become a cathedral chorister in 1983 when we still sang the Asperges Me. You did not sing for some 10 years from the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal, all of the Great Sequences in Elizabethan English.

How dare you? Oh, I’m just supposed to roll over and play dead. I’m not supposed to have noticed that the gauzy clad dancers wafting bowls of lit incense…I’m not supposed to have noticed the banner dancers.

You insult me, sir. You really, really, insult me. And I am not happy. I have served our diocese for twenty years. I have sung in the cathedral choir. Have you? You treat my generation as trash - unless we agree with you.

You’re darned straight about my feelings. Who are you to criticize me because I went to a Catholic boys high school in 1969 and was forced to sing Simon and Garfunckle.?

Timothysis, I dealt with you honestly via pm. You could have dealt with me honestly.

Your roots are showing.