We *have* to sin?

[bfree1216]

Ok so follow my thought process here and let me know where I go wrong.

Jesus is like us in every way but sin (I can’t remember if this is a Bible verse or a doctrine of the Church). So we can imply that sin is a defining characteristic of man.

In this way, we have to sin, no? I mean, not at all times, by any means, but at one point or another, we have to sin? (“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). And this refers to personal sin—an act of free will—not original sin, am I wrong?).

But this would be pre-determinism. But by definition, sin is an act of free will. But if sin is a result of free will, how would we have to sin? What am I missing, or how do these ideas work together?

(P.S. I’ve been posting on CAF a lot lately because I realized lately I’ve had all these unanswered questions about the faith. You all have been so, so helpful. Thank you for all your insight!)

 

[Fauken]

Jesus is like us in every way but sin

Yes.

So we can imply that sin is a defining characteristic of man.

No. The Blessed Virgin Mary is human and did not sin.

 

[po18guy]

We do not ‘have to’ sin, but we ‘will’ sin.

“Have to” suggests compulsion from outside combined with a lack of ability to resist. Not true.

“Will sin” is derived from our faulty human wills, in which we willingly decide to commit sin.

 

[Chronologic4]

We have sinned. We don’t sin. It’s all up to us. It’s kind of a … lost, … thought.

 

[bfree1216]

But if we will sin, is this not a pre-destined action? We have to at one point or another, or else we wouldn’t be human?

As an aside, you were definitely one of the people I was referencing in the post-script. Thanks for all your help!

 

[bfree1216]

Before asking this I was doing some research and was thinking Mary might be some sort of exception to this idea. She is, but not in a way that provides much clarity to this. She was graced from before birth, thus delivered from sin not by choice but by God.

See this article from Catholic.com for reference: Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin | Catholic Answers

 

[bfree1216]

Ohhh, I’m re-reading your comment and realized I might be understanding it incorrectly. Do you mean “will” as in “I will do something in the future”, or “will” as in “I will to drive my car”?

 

[chessnerd321]

We do not ‘have to’ sin, but we ‘will’ sin.

The church doesn’t necessarily believe this either. St John the Baptist according to some traditions was free of personal sin, and whether true or not, the church to my knowledge hasn’t rejected the possibility.

But regardless we all have sin because of original sin.

 

[Evan]

Many people die without ever having sinned. Think all who die before reaching the age of discernment.

The quote dealing with all have sinned is directed at those listeners.

It’s like saying all teenagers want to get their drivers license. It’s true in a limited sense. Not true in 1800s, or in India where very few drive.

All rarely refers to every one/thing.

 

[ineedofmercy]

i believe the only human who passed this test was Mary and maybe infants
otherwise any human will sin slightly in some way

 

[PatK63]

We all sin. St Paul said that. Jesus and Mary didn’t. To get to heaven we have to be repentant sinners. So the important thing, IMO, is to recognize our sins and repent. We should pray for people who believe that they have not sinned.

 

[Fauken]

Before asking this I was doing some research and was thinking Mary might be some sort of exception to this idea. She is, but not in a way that provides much clarity to this. She was graced from before birth, thus delivered from sin not by choice but by God.

Then why did Adam sin? He was not born with Original Sin.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

No, you are confusing the idea of sin with the action of sin. Adam and eve and Jesus and Mary are the only 4 humans ever that were created sinless. 2 of them remained so. We are all born into sin. Baptism clears that but the sin we are born into is not sin we “committed” or created.

Billions and Billions of people die who have never committed a personal sin. Billions. But they were born into original sin. That must be remedied through baptism. Then, actionable sin takes over and that is committed by our wills. We are not destined or forced to sin at all. We choose it. And it is not predestined that we HAVE to chose it. But many of us do.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Before asking this I was doing some research and was thinking Mary might be some sort of exception to this idea. She is, but not in a way that provides much clarity to this. She was graced from before birth, thus delivered from sin not by choice but by God.

See this article from Catholic.com for reference: Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin | Catholic Answers

She was cleared of original sin by God. But she had free will and could have sinned otherwise her fiat meant nothing…

This is why we call her the “new eve”

 

[phil19034]

But if we will sin, is this not a pre-destined action?

no, it is not a pre-destined action.

If I say eventually, “my daughter will eventually turn on the TV,” does that make it a pre-destined action? No, it doesn’t.

But if I say “my daughter will turn on the the TV to channel 10 at 7:05 PM and 33 seconds” that would indicate a pre-destined action.

In that 2nd situation, that would most likely be predestined unless I came about that information via time travel. Reason: because my daughter or I would have had make preparations and coordinate to make sure she turned on the TV at the exact second I indicated.

So predestination requires work, coordination, etc; not just knowledge.

 

[goout]

Original sin is a consequence, not a freely chosen action of our part.

The good of one is the good of all, likewise sin has a communal consequence.
And this post was not meant as a reply to Hoosier Daddy. Not sure how that got mixed up

Mary is full of grace by her cooperation with God’s grace, not by God forcing it into her.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Yes. that is true.

 

[neophyte]

In this way, we have to sin, no?

No. It’s always a choice we freely make.

 

[bfree1216]

I apologize, @Fauken and @Hoosier-Daddy, you are correct. I meant to say yes, she was free from original sin, but the point about her fiat is true as well. She chose to remain free of sin. My apologies, didn’t mean to trip anyone up on the Mary idea or sidetrack the conversation!

 

[Hodos]

There are a whole lot of cans of worms opened by your question, but thank you for asking. Should spark some interesting responses.

Jesus is like us in every way but sin (I can’t remember if this is a Bible verse or a doctrine of the Church). So we can imply that sin is a defining characteristic of man.

Sin is not a defining characteristic of man. Man was created without sin. It is a defining characteristic of fallen man. It is through Christ that we are restored to true full humanity in communion with God.

In this way, we have to sin, no?

No, we don’t “have” to sin, but due to the fallen nature inherited through original sin, our will is bent toward sin. Our free will is not free, it is in bondage to sin.

But this would be pre-determinism. But by definition, sin is an act of free will.

Nowhere does the Bible say that sin is the consequence of free will. In fact, one can sin unintentionally and not be aware of it The Old Testament even provided for the absolution of unintentional sin codified in the system of sacrifices. Sin is not following God’s will. Though our will is bent toward sin because of the fallen nature in which we find ourselves due to original sin, we are still responsible for our sin before God.

The good news is that Christ died for your sin and the Holy Spirit has called you to faith and sustains you in your faith. You are restored to communion with God in the humanity that God created you to be before the fall!