"We Must Affirm that the Papacy is the Anti-Christ"

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Dauphin actually I know what a Pharisee is the literal meaning is separated. They separated themselves from the “ordinary” Jews of the time who they felt weren’t living the Law of the Torah. They were a religious and political power in Israel during the time of Christ. At one point they actually allowed “The Way” or what would later be called Christianity be a sect of Judaism.

A lot of people like to put them in cahoots with the Sadducee sect, but they differed on many philosophical and theological points. One of which was the resurrection of the Dead. The Sadducee sect did not believe in the resurrection.

I feel calling someone a heretic, is judging someone without knowing the heart of the person. I believe God is the one who is to judge the person for he knows the heart. I also know that when calling a person a heretic you are not helping build the Body of Christ and are actually doing more damage to the Body. You are alienating people whom Christ loves and is drawing to himself. Do you really want to be the one who pushes others away? I have found when talking about my relationship with Christ that when I remain positive and tell others what I have learned and not turn it and make it a negative statement towards them that true dialogue can occur. The thing the Pharisees did was always talk about how they were correct and everyone else was wrong. They were doing harm to God’s people in Israel. So when I refer to someone as a Pharisee it is someone I see who does not seem to motivated by Love but rather their own self righteousness. If you take offense at my saying Pharisee perhaps you should take a moment to look at your heart. I was not directing my statement at you, but if you felt it was then perhaps there is an issue of the heart you need to look at.

If you want to call me a heretic that is fine I am in good company, Jesus was called that as well as the Apostles, and many other saints.
 
Dauphin said:
I’m of the opinion that the Church has applied far too much of the “medicine of mercy” for far too long.

A nice healthy dose of fire and brimstone is what our “Protestant brethren” desperately need, and I’m more than happy to provide it.
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But how can you be sure that your message is not dismissed as the typical rantings of a hate-monger? I am not saying that you are, but there are those who see the “convert or die” as hate, not charity.
 
ralphinal said:
But how can you be sure that your message is not dismissed as the typical rantings of a hate-monger? I am not saying that you are, but there are those who see the “convert or die” as hate, not charity.
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Now, when did I say that? 😛

I’m just hoping that fence-sitters will be jarred out of their complacency.
 
KenEOTE said:
Dauphin actually I know what a Pharisee is the literal meaning is separated. They separated themselves from the “ordinary” Jews of the time who they felt weren’t living the Law of the Torah. They were a religious and political power in Israel during the time of Christ. At one point they actually allowed “The Way” or what would later be called Christianity be a sect of Judaism.

A lot of people like to put them in cahoots with the Sadducee sect, but they differed on many philosophical and theological points. One of which was the resurrection of the Dead. The Sadducee sect did not believe in the resurrection.

I feel calling someone a heretic, is judging someone without knowing the heart of the person. I believe God is the one who is to judge the person for he knows the heart. I also know that when calling a person a heretic you are not helping build the Body of Christ and are actually doing more damage to the Body. You are alienating people whom Christ loves and is drawing to himself. Do you really want to be the one who pushes others away? I have found when talking about my relationship with Christ that when I remain positive and tell others what I have learned and not turn it and make it a negative statement towards them that true dialogue can occur. The thing the Pharisees did was always talk about how they were correct and everyone else was wrong. They were doing harm to God’s people in Israel. So when I refer to someone as a Pharisee it is someone I see who does not seem to motivated by Love but rather their own self righteousness. If you take offense at my saying Pharisee perhaps you should take a moment to look at your heart. I was not directing my statement at you, but if you felt it was then perhaps there is an issue of the heart you need to look at.

If you want to call me a heretic that is fine I am in good company, Jesus was called that as well as the Apostles, and many other saints.
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👍
 
Is it just me or is this thread a really good one? Good, in terms of content AND charity? 😃

Keep it up, you guys! (uh, assuming you’re guys, that is) I love learning from people like you. 👍
 
Many of the things that Luther was first called a heretic for were later received by the Papacy. So then were they really heretical? I am not a fan of Luther myself. Are you the judge though?

Like I said if you want to cause divisiveness then call people Heretics. If you want to help people Grow closer to the Father show love.

I think the use of the word Heretic is as over used as Pharisee in the Forums. God wants his body to be unified, and healing can not begin when both sides are calling each other heretics.

Most protestants I have met do not discount works. They say faith saves them but the evidence of their faith is the works that they do. The works do not save them. I know many Catholics and Protestants who do many works but lack faith. The works they are doing are not going to get them to heaven, because they have no faith in God they are trusting in themselves.

I feel a true sign of where one stands with God is in the fruit that you put forth. If you have anger, and malice towards another you have pretty rotten fruit. If you are lacking in love you are as Paul said a resounding Gong. Which is just noise with out a purpose.
 
KenEOTE said:
Many of the things that Luther was first called a heretic for were later received by the Papacy.
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For instance?
I think the use of the word Heretic is as over used as Pharisee in the Forums. God wants his body to be unified, and healing can not begin when both sides are calling each other heretics.
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So healing will begin when we ignore the elephant in the room? Let’s just all get together and be happy? Let’s not get hung up, let’s not get into an argument, strawberry fields forever?
Most protestants I have met do not discount works. They say faith saves them but the evidence of their faith is the works that they do.
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Guess what we call that belief? 😛
 
KenEOTE said:
Many of the things that Luther was first called a heretic for were later received by the Papacy. So then were they really heretical?..
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Hey man! Glad you made it here!! 😃

Ive read Luther’s thesis. A few things were correct, a few things were misunderstandings, and a few things really were heresy. Its those last few that earned him the title of “heretic”, plus the fact that he was impatient and didn’t allow for the fact that the Church moves very slowly. The Church is 2000 years old, and rightly moves slowly and deliberately in such matters. The Church views centuries the way you and me view years.
 
Yes indeed Dauphin. A spade is a spade. Refusing to accept the Doctrine of the Universal Church places one in quite a precarious position. The truly charitable point out the less fortunate’s shortcomings. It is less charitable to confirm someone in their sin and separation from the Catholic Church.
 
KenEOTE said:
Many of the things that Luther was first called a heretic for were later received by the Papacy. So then were they really heretical? I am not a fan of Luther myself. Are you the judge though?

Like I said if you want to cause divisiveness then call people Heretics. If you want to help people Grow closer to the Father show love.

I think the use of the word Heretic is as over used as Pharisee in the Forums. God wants his body to be unified, and healing can not begin when both sides are calling each other heretics.
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I guess I’m on-the-fence with regard to the term “heretic”. I partially agree with what you’re saying, but it doesn’t really bother me that much to be called a “heretic”.

I think a much bigger problem is people labeling ideas they disagree with as “lies”, and/or labeling their opponents as “hypocrites”.
 
Peter_J said:
I guess I’m on-the-fence with regard to the term “heretic”. I partially agree with what you’re saying, but it doesn’t really bother me that much to be called a “heretic”.

I think a much bigger problem is people labeling ideas they disagree with as “lies”, and/or labeling their opponents as “hypocrites”.
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That is true, Peter. It’s a breath of fresh air that you mentioned that. If they’re deeply held beliefs, it really shouldn’t matter who calls whom a heretic. After all, the Muslims will call us infidels.

Did you get a chance to read the Rom. 3:28 reference?
 
Peter J
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…I was very surprised to come across this article on a Lutheran blog which affirmed the necessity of considering the Papacy to be the anti-Christ predicted in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.
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So why is that surprising? You can also find Catholic blog that claim that all non-Catholics are going to hell.
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I was surprised because the article seems to indicate this is an official Lutheran position. Well there are extreme Catholic positions all over the internet, I would say most of them disregard the Church’s own re-evaluations of her harsh words.
I would point out that Catholics added the word “filioque” to the Creed – and haven’t removed it. (I know you’ll say that’s different because the “filioque” addition is correct, whereas the “alone” addition is not; and I agree with you but Lutherans wouldn’t.)
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True. But a Creed is quite different from Scripture. Above all the Lutherans agree with that much.
 
Jordan_Francis said:
I was surprised because the article seems to indicate this is an official Lutheran position. Well there are extreme Catholic positions all over the internet, I would say most of them disregard the Church’s own re-evaluations of her harsh words.
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Does a person have to believe the position to be Lutheran? No, but they would be to be a Lutheran who subscribes unconditionally to the Confessions. For example, an LCMS pastor must unconditionally accept everything taught therein.
 
I don’t mind being called a heretic. But I believe that a heretic is someone who willfully is saying things to go against God and the scripture. It is a matter of the heart. What is the motivation for what they are saying. There are things that are done and said with pure motivation which could be taken as heresy.

I was once young and arrogant and egotistical and would go around calling people heretics. I later realized I was as Paul said a Pharisee of Pharisees. I knew the Law, but had missed out on the spirit of the Law. I knew all the right things to say and do, but I didn’t know the Love of God for others.

I see a lot of that happen in forums. Lots of knowledge, and very little love.
 
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