We need gun owners and everyone else to speak for forgiveness

[OneSheep]

After all, people want guns for self-protection, that is the main purpose of having them.

However, when is a society truly safe? Sure, there would never be mass murders to the degree we have if only knives were available to a mentally ill or angry people, but there would still be murders. So, how do we create a safe society?

For starters, we can make an assessment of how not to create a safe society, and that is to support a climate of resentment. Let’s reflect on the past year or so. We had a presidential campaign, and the campaigns “gathered the masses” with resentment tying everyone together in their in-groups.

On the Hillary Clinton side, we had those gathered who resented “climate change deniers” , “Muslim haters”, “immigrant haters” and Donald Trump himself.

On the Donald Trump side we had people who resented “job stealing illegal aliens”, “environmental do-gooders”, “Muslim terrorists” (perceived as all Muslims) and Hillary Clinton herself.

So, we had plenty of resentment to go around, and look what we-frogs-in -boiling-water have created? A society where resentment is core, and the climate has not changed since the election. Is it any wonder that in a society that promotes resentment we bring out the worst in people?

Why not, then, choose to create a different climate, a society that never forgets forgiveness as a core value? We could all start by forgiving Donald Trump whenever he does anything that seems bad to us. We can forgive Hillary Clinton when she meets the same criteria, and both of these people for all of their past deeds. We can forgive immigrants and those who resent immigrants. We can forgive Muslim terrorists and those who hate the terrorists, and forgive those who profess Islam. We can forgive those who fear climate change as well as those who say climate change is not because of human activity.

Here on the CAF, we can promote understanding and forgiveness whenever resentment is expressed!

How do we forgive? We have Jesus as a guide. We are not to wait until the other repents, as Jesus did not wait from the cross. see here We can see people’s good intent, and we can see people’s ignorance and blindness. None of us are immune, and we can understand and forgive through His words and example.

A safe society is a society that forgives.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I am neither an immigrant hater nor a Muslim hater. One of my best friends is a Saudi Muslim. What that has to do with me owning firearms is beyond me.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes.

Neither of the people who did the last two mass murders were technically mentally ill, if I remember right.

If they had forgiven those they held something against, though, they would not have committed the crime.

Can we forgive the two shooters? They did not know what they were doing. They were blinded by resentment.

 

[OneSheep]

I am neither an immigrant hater nor a Muslim hater. One of my best friends is a Saudi Muslim. What that has to do with me owning firearms is beyond me.

Beyond me too. I own a firearm, and I am not an immigrant hater or Muslim hater.

Can you join me in speaking for forgiveness?

 

[OneSheep]

What you are saying is right on!

The challenge, though, is to forgive the unrepentant, as Jesus did from the cross. Both mass murderers were in the mode where they felt as if they were the victim of some injustice. In their mindset, they could only see an unrepentant crowd, people not sorry for the persecution they (the murderer) suffered. All of us can relate to this, right? All of us have trouble forgiving the unrepentant, we don’t have to be diagnosed with a mental illness to have hate.

So as Jesus forgave the unrepentant from the cross, we too can promote such forgiveness. For example, if someone holds something against Mr. Trump, and waits for him to repent before they forgive, then the person can possibly hang onto resentment their whole life. “What good is that?”, right?

Instead, let’s help and encourage people to forgive anyone they hold anything against, as Jesus says. Are we on the same page? It sounds like it!

You are making a big difference, friend. If people could all take on this priority, the world would be a better place!

 

[OneSheep]

One can defend oneself in a number of ways. Guns are not the answer. Guns kill.

You make a lot of great points, but when people feel unsafe, they buy guns. What I am saying here is that the way to create a safe society is to encourage forgiveness, always.

If we can create a safe society, it will become superfluous to have weapons to protect oneself. People will learn that carrying the gun is unnecessary, because forgiveness becomes a core value. Of course, forgiveness is not going to make an intruder rethink his desire to steal someone’s stuff, but encouraging forgiveness can be part of raising the civility of society as a whole.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I really enjoyed your original post, and how you develop the theme of forgiveness.
However, people do commit evil acts with eyes wide open. Not every evil act is due to a diagnosable mental illness .
Some people are just jerks

 

[OneSheep]

I really enjoyed your original post, and how you develop the theme of forgiveness.

Thanks!

Not every evil act is due to a diagnosable mental illness .

I agree completely. In fact, neither one of the recent mass murderers were diagnosed with mental illness. They were probably blinded by resentment.

However, people do commit evil acts with eyes wide open.

Hmm. A person blinded by resentment may be seeing something, but it is an illusion, right? They are seeing no value where there is indeed value. Jesus was killed by people who saw no value where there was indeed value. He understood and forgave their blindness.

Some people are just jerks

So when I say someone is a “jerk”, I am expressing resentment, am I not? I have judged the person, I have not understood their position or forgiven.

For example, we would not be creating the climate I am talking about if people said, “Donal Trump is just a jerk” and left it at that. Donald Trump is a person, just like you and me, right? He is not some negative, and he has reasons for doing the things he does. He intends the good, but he is also somewhat blind and ignorant. We are all somewhat ignorant and capable of blindness.

Do you feel called to promote forgiveness too?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Thanks for the reply!
People do mean things all the time–you can argue they might have a blockage in their perception, and I get that.
For instance, the mean girls don’t see the homely girl as being worthy of respect as they’re mocking her. You can argue that it’s an immaturity And maybe with life experience they might outgrow these behaviors. But everybody knows its unkind to point-and-laugh, and they’re doing it anyway.

 

[OneSheep]

If you remove the guns first and then experience a burglar you can still forgive him/her. At least he lives to experience the forgiveness.

Another great point. Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks for the reply!

People do mean things all the time–you can argue they might have a blockage in their perception, and I get that.

For instance, the mean girls don’t see the homely girl as being worthy of respect as they’re mocking her. You can argue that it’s an immaturity And maybe with life experience they might outgrow these behaviors.

Yes, it is immaturity. When people experience others doing this very same thing that they have done (the mocking), they come to understand what it is like to be mocked, and they build a conscience. They may already know that it is “wrong” but their consciences are blinded by the desire for the feeling of status they get by belittling others. We all want status, and all of us can experience this blindness. They do not know what they are doing.

But everybody knows its unkind to point-and-laugh, and they’re doing it anyway.

Well, in the U.S. we have politicians pointing and dissing, so the incivility is from top to bottom. Forgiveness is part of a greater theme of mercy, as I am sure you know. As Catholics, we are to uphold human dignity, a dignity shared by all.

Thanks for your additions to the thread!

 

[Eric_Hyom]

If we can create a safe society, it will become superfluous to have weapons to protect oneself. People will learn that carrying the gun is unnecessary, because forgiveness becomes a core value.

When Jesus spent his time on earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how do you love the person who is nailing you to the cross? Jesus showed us love and forgiveness in an extreme way.

Many years ago in Jamaica, a friend of a church minister was shot and killed by a gang of youths. After the funeral, the minister and a few parishioners prayed for the gang members, and they decided to try and reach out to them.

It took faith and courage for unarmed church goers to confront gun carrying gangs of youths on drugs and living in poverty. Over time they started to make a difference, from this beginning the idea of Street Pastors came about. I have been a Street Pastor for about ten years, and we confront a lot of violence in the hope of finding peace. It has been a profound and life changing ministry.

Forgiveness is at the heart of what we do.

 

[OneSheep]

Forgiveness is at the heart of what we do.

God bless your ministry, Eric! Thanks for your voice!

 

[Cathoholic]

Onesheep:

After all, people want guns for self-protection, that is the main purpose of having them.

.

Lumber Jack:

We seem to get by OK in the UK without them.

.

Someone forgot to tell THIS abused girl (below) how “OK” everything is.
.

God bless.

Cathoholic

.

Illegal Migrant Who Called Britain a ‘B** Country’ Jailed for Violent Rape**
.
By JACK MONTGOMERY 7 Nov 2017 Breitbart News Service
.
An illegal migrant who scorned Britain as a “b**** country” has been imprisoned for violently raping a stranger just weeks after being granted leave to remain.
.
Abdel-Aziz Al-Shamary, whose parents paid to have him smuggled into Britain from Kuwait, set upon his victim by a riverbank as she walked home from a pub in Darlington, County Durham.
.
The court heard that Al-Shamary stalked and harassed the woman for 20 minutes before he struck, hurling her to the ground and leaving her with a bloody nose after punching her twice in the face before carrying out the rape.
.
He had abused another woman on the street earlier in the evening . . .
.
. . . However, most criminals sentenced to a term of imprisonment in Britain are automatically paroled halfway through their sentences, meaning 21-year-old Al-Shamary could be back on the streets by the time he is 27 — possibly earlier, if there is already time on remand to be discounted from his term. . . .
.
. . . “I can still see the image of my attacker’s face in my mind and that upsets me,” said an impact statement from the victim, who says she still thinks about what happened to her every night.

Kuwaiti Migrant Who Called Britain a 'Bitch Country' Jailed for Violent Rape

Now you are likely going to reply that she can still forgive her perpetrator.

And I would agree.

But it’s not as “OK” as the picture you paint either.

.

CCC 2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

The UK Government failed in that duty here.

The second UK Government failure was not allowing this subject to at least TRY to adequately defend herself when the UK Government is not up to the task.

Let us forgive to be sure. Let us forgive the rapist AND the UK Government.

But let’s also not be commit the sin of incredulity (CCC 2089) in the process and pretend everything is “OK” in this regard.

.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello Cathoholic,

I am pleased I live in the UK, and whilst there are failings in the government, I do not blame them for people being shot or raped. I am pleased in their efforts to keep guns and knives off the streets, no system can be a hundred percent successful. I feel much safer knowing the majority of people do not have guns.

I am journeying alongside a man I met recently at three in the morning, he was drunk and there had been a fight. He told me his story about how he was raped from the age of seven by a family member. He tried to commit suicide twice in very violent ways and survived. Rapists tend to choose their victims carefully, so more often than not, they will have the power to do what they want.

The first time I met him, he knew we were Christians by the jackets we wear. He said there is no God. We had a long conversation about the destructive powers of anger, and when we left him, we said we would pray for him.

When we met him again, he asked us if we had prayed for him, as he was feeling better. I was able to say that a lot of people were praying for him, as he was now on our church prayer list. When we left him he said that he would pray for us.

Beyond any doubt, I know that the only way this man will ever find any sense of peace, is if he can forgive the person who raped him. It is also beneficial to forgive, even if the rapist does not say sorry.

My prayers are that he will come with me to our church when it is empty; and we can walk along the stations of the cross together.

 

[the_coppersmith]

St. John Paul II put it wonderfully in Evangelium Vitae:

In a special way, believers in Christ must defend and promote the right to life.

“God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. For he has created all things that they might exist…God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it” (Wis 1:13-14; 2:23-24).

At the root of every act of violence against one’s neighbour there is a concession to the “thinking” of the evil one, the one who “was a murderer from the beginning” (Jn 8:44).

Cain’s killing of his brother at the very dawn of history is thus a sad witness of how evil spreads with amazing speed: man’s revolt against God in the earthly paradise is followed by the deadly combat of man against man.

As Saint Ambrose writes: “God, who preferred the correction rather than the death of a sinner, did not desire that a homicide be punished by the exaction of another act of homicide”

And also it is worth recalling the speech of the Holy See at the First Committee on General and Complete Disarmament:

Many … are increasing their spending because they think that larger arsenals of firepower will provide security. Increased reliance on guns – large and small – is leading the world away from, not towards, security. A clear result of such over-spending on the instruments of death is that governments are much less able to meet long-term commitments to education, health care and housing.

A radical Christian response is found in the very life of our Lord Jesus Christ who commanded Peter to “put down the sword” and, “like a lamb taken to the slaughterhouse, He did not open his mouth”. The Master has taught us to turn the other cheek and not to fight evil with evil. Furthermore He said: “Love one another as I have loved you”. He let Himself be tortured and killed out of love. No weapon was on His hands. No army came to His defense. Yet He was innocent, as “He alone is the Holy One”.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

A radical Christian response is found in the very life of our Lord Jesus Christ who commanded Peter to “put down the sword” and, “like a lamb taken to the slaughterhouse, He did not open his mouth”. The Master has taught us to turn the other cheek and not to fight evil with evil. Furthermore He said: “Love one another as I have loved you”. He let Himself be tortured and killed out of love. No weapon was on His hands. No army came to His defense. Yet He was innocent, as “He alone is the Holy One”.

Thanks for sharing. Jesus had legions of angels and he did call on them for help either

 

[Bon_Croix]

This is the problem with the NRA. The NRA only professes “following the law”. They believe that law abiding citizens should have the right. Nowhere in the law does it profess “forgiving those who trespass against you”. This is the problem.

Someone who is angry b/c of the way he was treated is a sinner but is law abiding. The same person without the anger is not a sinner and is also law abiding. The one with anger is more likely to seek revenge.

So, which organization is more likely to resolve the problem? The church or the NRA?

Which church is more likely to resolve the problem? One who offers one on one confession for anger or one who says “you can pray the sinner’s prayer at your house whenever you are angry”.

That said, I think the homilies need to gear more to the use of confession along with its benefits as well as to the fact that anger is a sin that should be confessed (whether revenged or not revenged).

The Catholic mentally ill should be re-catechized on these topics. Many of these are ill because of harms done to them which produce in them desires for revenge, desires for power, etc… These desires, if unchecked by The Holy Spirit via the use of the confessional, will fester and will promote mental illness.

 

[upant]

OneSheep:

You make a lot of great points, but when people feel unsafe, they buy guns. What I am saying here is that the way to create a safe society is to encourage forgiveness, always.

If we can create a safe society, it will become superfluous to have weapons to protect oneself. People will learn that carrying the gun is unnecessary, because forgiveness becomes a core value. Of course, forgiveness is not going to make an intruder rethink his desire to steal someone’s stuff, but encouraging forgiveness can be part of raising the civility of society as a whole.

If you remove the guns first and then experience a burglar you can still forgive him/her. At least he lives to experience the forgiveness.

but will you live to give forgiveness if he has an illegal gun? why take the right to self defense away? the church allows it?

catechism # 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

 

[upant]

We need gun owners and everyone else to speak for forgiveness

After all, people want guns for self-protection, that is the main purpose of having them.

who are gun owners supposed to forgive? the church allows self-defense? do you need forgiveness for keeping a teaching of the church?

YMMV