"we should just be happy that protestants have a relationship with God?"

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Shaolen #17
He seems to really be in the “you can’t judge people that’s rude” crowd thinking that my intent is malicious.
He needs to be reminded of the teaching of the Sacred Scriptures by Christ Himself. The error here is the perennial error of not listening to Christ Himself. The rule from Christ is:
“Judge not that you be not judged.” (Mt 7:1) We may not judge motives, intentions, and guilt before God but are commanded to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

So Christ commands:
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

And St Paul, following the Master:
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).

That is precisely why we judge actions, speech, writing against true teaching as to what is good and what is evil, and we know what is good and what is evil only by following the teaching of His Church – not by our opinions, desires, prejudices, feelings, wants – selfism.
 
Anyone have anything I could add to this. He seems to really be in the “you can’t judge people that’s rude” crowd thinking that my intent is malicious
If that’s the way he is and if the conversation would flow this way, you could maybe start from the bottom and ask him if he thinks truth exists.

If he says no, you have access to a nearly infininite number of refutations.

If he says yes, take it further. Isn’t truth a person? Isn’t God maximally great? Since He is, wont he give us what is best for us? Since he is the greatest, wont He give us Himself? He came down to Earth to give us the truth, do you really think that His intention was to leave us with opinion when He ascended into Heaven, or is it much more believable that He would preserve what He has given us, so that we can know the truth with certainty?

And if you wanted, you could guide him towards reading John’s Gospel in a new light, such as John 14 onwards:

(Jesus speaking to Apostles)

"If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate*** to help you and be with you forever.*** The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

…"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

(Jesus, praying to the Father)

…Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

…“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and *will continue to make you known *in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
 
Just some quick thoughts.
“Is it necessary to challenge another believer in Christ? Is there a reason for it?”
It depends on what you mean by “challenge”.
Being Christian is a challenge…growing in holiness is a challenge…keeping on the narrow path is a challenge…and as an ekklesia (community) we need to work together and help one another.
Are we stating that one is better than the other?
Again - it depends on what you mean by “better”. Naturally no one can judge another’s heart or their state of grace (though we migh be able to make a good guess…:whistle:)

But we CAN examine systems of thought and belief and how we express those beliefs in our daily lives. Doing so should always be done charitably and with the aim of helping others to grow spiritually.
Or should we be simply happy about that they have made a relationship in Christ and we allow Him to judge how they developed that relationship."
If one follows this line of thinking we can remove a good portion of the NT writings…
Should St Paul have simply been happy that the Corinthians had made a relationship with Christ and let it go at that? Or should he have written to them as he did to correct the issues that existed in that community…

So Scripture itself speaks against such an attitude. Not that we are suppose to be pushy or uncharitable to our separated brethren…We simply do for them that which they do for us…Offer to them our understandings on these matters.
Oh and his question was in regards to two questions I asked about how we know which books belong in the bible and how do we know we have the authority to interpret scripture.
Good discussion points…and definitely ones that need to be addressed.
Can anyone help me articulate these ideas into a better response?
Don’t know if I helped or not…but maybe there is something that is useful…

Peace
James
 
So I replied to him with the things I was trying to convey and with some of your ideas and he then said this

“So that brings up a great question, how do we determine they are wrong answers? I’m sure peer review isnt the best…”

I asked him why and he quoted Psalm 118:8 and then went on to say

“If the intent is to learn and become knowledgeable about seeking the truth…then learn about it and share about it. But to point out who is right or wrong…well I would consider your second question…who gives us the authority to determine…
who is right or wrong. After all, we are all men.”

I then replied “Sharing is exactly what I’m doing. How do we determine its a wrong answer and psalm 118:8 both lead to what I said earlier and my original questions. The psalm saying “It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” you might take that and think well why do I go to church and listen to these people since they’re men. Most churches if you follow where they came from you’ll eventually find some human founder. However one of those churches like i said before isn’t just founded by man but our Lord himself. And as Jesus ascended into heaven he didnt shout back down to everyone “hey don’t forget to read my book.” no he entrusted the authority to teach in His name to 12 men and that they entrust the authority to teach to faithful men as well. Its not about pointing out who’s right and who’s wrong for our own sake. Its about helping others see the truth and not be lead astray or lead others astray”

Anyone have anything I could add to this. He seems to really be in the “you can’t judge people that’s rude” crowd thinking that my intent is malicious
I turn directly to Scripture here…
First i ask them to look at Mt 18:15-18 and what the instructions from Jesus say. (Tell it to the Church and Listen to the Church). They will often point out that this is about "sin (vs 15) and I ask them if teaching a false Gospel (error) is a sin…
I then ask them to look at Acts 15…the Council of Jerusalem. The very opening verses of that Chapter read like the instructions in Mt 18…A matter of understanding and interpretation came up - not even St Paul Himself could resolve the matter - so it was taken to “The Church” in council for resolution.

If the Christ and the Holy Spirit tell us that this is how it should be done…who are we to contest this - or ignore it (which protestants have done over the last 500 years).

Peace
James
 
How strange that the specific teaching in Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium *#16 should be omitted:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
“…those too MAY achieve…” Not “will” and not even "might. " In fact, the Church has never proclaimed that anyone has actually been saved by any extraordinary means. We must evangelized and convert. Jesus wasn’t just blowing smoke.

Peace

Sean
 
The dissent lies in the obscuring of the reality that Christ through His Church proclaims that salvation is available to all, and that those who don’t know/realise the need to become Catholics also have salvation open to them.

This in no way denies Christ through His Church which proclaims that we go and teach all nations – everybody, and the reality that it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation, whether they know it or not. (Vatican II, Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, 4.). Mysterium Ecclesiae, SCDF, 1973].

U.R. #11: “Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded.
**“At the same time, the Catholic faith must be explained more profoundly and precisely, in such a way and in such terms as our separated brethren can also really understand.” **[My emphasis].
 
“…those too MAY achieve…” Not “will” and not even "might. " In fact, the Church has never proclaimed that anyone has actually been saved by any extraordinary means. We must evangelized and convert. Jesus wasn’t just blowing smoke.

Peace

Sean
Even Catholics do not have assured salvation. That final judgement is God’s alone for all of us. Of special concern are those Catholics in name only.
 
Even Catholics do not have assured salvation. That final judgement is God’s alone for all of us. Of special concern are those Catholics in name only.
I don’t disagree with you at all. I’m simply refuting this insane idea that protestants and other non-believes are just fine because “they don’t know better.” It’s a ridiculous assertion. That assertion renders the Truth superfluous.

Peace,

Sean
 
I don’t disagree with you at all. I’m simply refuting this insane idea that protestants and other non-believes are just fine because “they don’t know better.” It’s a ridiculous assertion. That assertion renders the Truth superfluous.

Peace,

Sean
So you believe they are all going to Hell?
 
You should challenge them. They hold heretical beliefs and the Catholic Church is the bride and the only Church of Our Lord. There is no relationship with Jesus when a “believer” rejects the Church that He founded. Don’t get mixed up in relativism and false ecumenism. There is no salvation outside of the Church. Help those that can be helped. Those that reject you, also reject Him.

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You know, it’s a really good thing that none of the Catholics I know have this attitude. If I came across this kind of hostility towards my faith, there is no way I would have considered becoming Catholic. Many Protestants are not in open rebellion aganist the Catholic Church. They often have not even been given the chance to investigate the Catholic truth, just as I was for most of my life. Most know very little about the Catholic Church and if they do hold any kind of view about it, it is often a false caricature given to them by their parents or pastors.

God willing, I will become Catholic in the near future. And it is thanks to many faithful, wonderful Catholics including my husband that I am on this path. So it is with disappointment that I read threads like these which pour contempt on the faith which led me to Jesus Christ in the first place.
 
My point is that if we challenge non Catholics with the* attitude* that we have the superior church and they are ignorant all we will do is argue with them. Far better to approach with an attitude to “live in an open and neighbourly spirit, sharing joys and sorrows, their human problems and preoccupations; collaborate for the integral development and liberation of people; share their spiritual riches, for instance with regard to prayer and contemplation, faith and ways of searching for God or the Absolute.”
👍 Thank you so much for this. This is so true. As I said in my previous post, I am currently journeying towards the Catholic Church thanks to the open and neighbourly Catholics in my life.
 
So you believe they are all going to Hell?
I believe they will be judged appropriately. I’m not in the judging business. I do know that Jesus told us to “makes disciples.” He wouldn’t have ordered it if it weren’t necessary.

Peace

Sean
 
For the hardcore, they must be challenged and debated.
I would say it depends on where they’re coming from. If they’re Catholic apostates, I might reflexively be less charitable. But then again they are owed the dignity of active listening. We know that many Catholics have left the Church because of very serious harms done to them by members of the Church. Think of the pedophilia scandal for instance. So even they are entitled to at least being treated with respect, and if they were hurt by clergy or other members of the Church, compassion.

For those who simply were born into Protestant families, it is wise to consider what the Catechism says:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
(my bold)

So while these Protestants may objectively believe in heretical concepts, subjectively the guilt they bear is mitigated by time and circumstances.
If they a shred of intellectual integrity, then they will discern the truth.
Easy to say. But we are talking matters of faith, not trying to solve an equation. Assenting to something based on faith comes as much from the heart as from the intellect. When I reverted after 22 years of atheism, it was not something rational. It was a switch “clicking” in my heart.

Moreover as I’m sure you’d agree discerning Truth on the Internet is an activity fraught with danger. There is so much trash information out there, including sites that purport to be Catholic, that it’s enough to make one’s head spin. In a way I’m sort of glad I reverted when I did (1997) when I was less likely to try to find answers on the Internet. I had in fact been actively proselytized by some evangelical protestants (one colleague in particular). When I started reading the Bible at a very low moment in my life, I simply saw too many contradictions in what they said, and I fell back into my “comfort” zone and reverted to the faith of my childhood. I might have done exactly the same if I had been brought up Protestant. My colleague certainly argued until he was blue in the face what a mistake I had made. I was poorly equipped at that time to defend the Church, but I receive ample evidence from God that I was on the right track, and that sufficed for me.

Bringing people to the Truth is not an easy task! And it cannot be done by argument for the most part, that in fact often has the opposite effect, and we must think of the guilt we ourselves bear on our souls if we drive someone away from the Church by arguing with them. My preferred method is simply to show what it means to be Catholic through my own life, and let that slowly, and imperfectly, do the work; I might point out that this is the monastic tradition as well; and as you can see from my profile that is a spirituality that speaks to me.

This is a very touchy subject with me. My parents were pioneers of sorts, my father was Anglican and married my Catholic mother in the proper manner, that is with dispensation and the promise that offspring of the marriage would be raised Catholic, which is what happened, to the point that if my mother wouldn’t take me to Mass as a child because she didn’t feel well, my father would, so I rarely missed Mass and he also saw to it that I never set foot in an Anglican church except once, when my step-sister was married in 1963 (my father was a young widower with a daughter when he married my mother). We Catholics could learn something from his level of dedication to the promise he made.

I am also married to an Anglican woman. We did go through some bitter times until we both learned to let go, and realize that we would never win each other over by argument. We now respect each other and our faith walks, we don’t argue and we focus on our mutual love of God and how He has literally saved us and our marriage in the here and now.

So I can tell you as a practical matter, faith is such a mysterious, personal journey that attempting to convince someone that they are material heretics, isn’t going to fly very far. It’s going to occur in a manner far more subtle than that:
11 He said, “Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.” Now there was a great wind, so strong that it was splitting mountains and breaking rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of sheer silence. 13 When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. Then there came a voice to him that said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
1 Kings 19
 
I agree with you. I think we are just not connecting because of this medium of communication. If a heretic is purely ignorant, then dialogue works. They will hopefully do the math and convert. For the hardcore, they must be challenged and debated. If they a shred of intellectual integrity, then they will discern the truth. The rough part is nobody likes learning they are wrong or have been lied to by folks they trust. This tends to bring rejection. Regardless the approach, they will eventually accept or reject the information presented to them. People want truth. They want to be at the pinnacle of something. All people crave something more. I choose to offer it quickly and repeatedly with the context of individual situation at hand. If they don’t sense a superior alternative, then they will casually accept their inferior way as equal to the alternative. This happens a lot in our morally and religiously relative society.
We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Anyone who has been baptized has the means to find the Truth. If they don’t, either the Holy Spirit failed them (an impossibility) or their human nature got in the way. They will be judged appropriately by God.

Peace,

Sean
 
👍 I didn’t want to quote the whole thing due to the length, but I just wanted to thank you so much for your beautiful post, OraLabora.
 
I would say it depends on where they’re coming from. If they’re Catholic apostates, I might reflexively be less charitable. But then again they are owed the dignity of active listening. We know that many Catholics have left the Church because of very serious harms done to them by members of the Church. Think of the pedophilia scandal for instance. So even they are entitled to at least being treated with respect, and if they were hurt by clergy or other members of the Church, compassion.

For those who simply were born into Protestant families, it is wise to consider what the Catechism says:

(my bold)

So while these Protestants may objectively believe in heretical concepts, subjectively the guilt they bear is mitigated by time and circumstances.

Easy to say. But we are talking matters of faith, not trying to solve an equation. Assenting to something based on faith comes as much from the heart as from the intellect. When I reverted after 22 years of atheism, it was not something rational. It was a switch “clicking” in my heart.

Moreover as I’m sure you’d agree discerning Truth on the Internet is an activity fraught with danger. There is so much trash information out there, including sites that purport to be Catholic, that it’s enough to make one’s head spin. In a way I’m sort of glad I reverted when I did (1997) when I was less likely to try to find answers on the Internet. I had in fact been actively proselytized by some evangelical protestants (one colleague in particular). When I started reading the Bible at a very low moment in my life, I simply saw too many contradictions in what they said, and I fell back into my “comfort” zone and reverted to the faith of my childhood. I might have done exactly the same if I had been brought up Protestant. My colleague certainly argued until he was blue in the face what a mistake I had made. I was poorly equipped at that time to defend the Church, but I receive ample evidence from God that I was on the right track, and that sufficed for me.

Bringing people to the Truth is not an easy task! And it cannot be done by argument for the most part, that in fact often has the opposite effect, and we must think of the guilt we ourselves bear on our souls if we drive someone away from the Church by arguing with them. My preferred method is simply to show what it means to be Catholic through my own life, and let that slowly, and imperfectly, do the work; I might point out that this is the monastic tradition as well; and as you can see from my profile that is a spirituality that speaks to me.
👍 I didn’t want to quote the whole thing due to the length, but I just wanted to thank you so much for this beautiful post, OraLabora.
 
Quote:
[SIGN]Originally Posted by aTraditionalist View Post
If they a shred of intellectual integrity, then they will discern the truth. [/SIGN]

I can’t agree with this statement because faith is not a matter of an intellectual equation of seeing it or the logic in bible passages and then being able to believe. If it were, then we could just have a formula that everyone could believe in. But it doesn’t work that way because God does not want it that way.

This can be seen from the time when Christ walked the earth. Not all the Jews believed even though they saw miracles and Christ fulfilled prophesies. Their reluctance to believe is now part of the plan of salvation in that the future holds something in store for them and us when they enter the Church. Just as many Jews did not enter the Church so there are Protestants who are in the Body of Christ by Baptism yet do not profess to be in the Church. God still works through them with the graces they have and I only hope that many Catholics see the beauty of their faith and desire to share theirs with them. It will be wonderful for the Church. Fulton Sheen always believed you must love the Church.
 
Quote:
[SIGN]Originally Posted by aTraditionalist View Post
If they a shred of intellectual integrity, then they will discern the truth. [/SIGN]

I can’t agree with this statement because faith is not a matter of an intellectual equation of seeing it or the logic in bible passages and then being able to believe. If it were, then we could just have a formula that everyone could believe in. But it doesn’t work that way because God does not want it that way.

This can be seen from the time when Christ walked the earth. Not all the Jews believed even though they saw miracles and Christ fulfilled prophesies. Their reluctance to believe is now part of the plan of salvation in that the future holds something in store for them and us when they enter the Church. Just as many Jews did not enter the Church so there are Protestants who are in the Body of Christ by Baptism yet do not profess to be in the Church. God still works through them with the graces they have and I only hope that many Catholics see the beauty of their faith and desire to share theirs with them. It will be wonderful for the Church. Fulton Sheen always believed you must love the Church.
It’s the hardness of their hearts the prevents them from seeing the truth. If we humble ourselves - truly and completely - we will find the Truth. The Holy Spirit cannot lead someone astray.

Peace,

Sean
 
It’s the hardness of their hearts the prevents them from seeing the truth. If we humble ourselves - truly and completely - we will find the Truth. The Holy Spirit cannot lead someone astray.

Peace,

Sean
I disagree… Have you always been Catholic ? I was a “protestant” for over 35 years before coming to the Catholic church, and I assure you most people that are “protestant” do not have a hard heart, nor are they “protesting” anything. They love God with all their hearts, and live for Him with passion. The Holy Spirit works in their lives in amazing ways.
 
I disagree… Have you always been Catholic ? I was a “protestant” for over 35 years before coming to the Catholic church, and I assure you most people that are “protestant” do not have a hard heart, nor are they “protesting” anything. They love God with all their hearts, and live for Him with passion. The Holy Spirit works in their lives in amazing ways.
So you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit can lead someone away from the Catholic Church? Interesting that you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead someone into error. So either the Holy Spirit is wrong or the Catholic Church does not contain the fullness of Truth.

I maintain that when I was a protestant, I wasn’t “protesting” per se, but I was seeking a religion that fit MY needs as I, in my selfishness, saw fit. It was the spirit that led me away from error into the Truth. Trust in the Holy Spirit as it CANNOT lead someone into error.

Peace

Sean
 
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