"Well, I'm Catholic and I'm pro-choice..."

[TheApologist]

I love the answer to this question…it makes me so much more comfortable when someone says “you’re being judgemental!”

Q: In a discussion with a non-Catholic, I pointed out that his beliefs were incorrect or unfounded according to Catholic Church teaching. He accused me of being judgmental. But failure or refusal to accept the truth could have eternal consequences. What constitutes being judgmental?

A: First, pointing out the truth is not judgmental. Here are a few more examples of what does not constitute being judgmental:

* It is not judgmental to make a moral appraisal of whether a person’s actions are sinful or whether the person is likely culpable for them.
* It is not judgmental to have a negative emotional reaction to what is objectively evil.
* It is not judgmental to bear in mind that a person you have forgiven has committed harmful actions in the past and may commit them again in the future.

One way to avoid being judgmental is to avoid making rash judgments.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way: "Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved" (CCC 2478, cf. St. Ignatius, Spiritual Exercises 22).

—Peggy Frye

Does anyone have a good response to “you’re a man! you don’t know what having a baby is like and you never will!”
The only one I have is that a majority of the prochoice movement is of men(correct me if I’m wrong) and that a majority of the prolife movement is women.
I just wish that my friends could see the light of Christ in a person who CHOOSES to give birth when she is raped and CHOOSES not to abort.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Does anyone have a good response to “you’re a man! you don’t know what having a baby is like and you never will!”

“I have two children and two grandchildren. To sayh that I don’t know what it is like to have children, to care for them, raise them and love them is sexism!”

The only one I have is that a majority of the prochoice movement is of men(correct me if I’m wrong) and that a majority of the prolife movement is women.

Not in my experience. There are as many women as men – and probably more – in the pro-life movement.

Now culturally, men tend to be more active, more visible and so on. But some of the most committed pro-life people I know are women.

I just wish that my friends could see the light of Christ in a person who CHOOSES to give birth when she is raped and CHOOSES not to abort.

Disregard the issue of rape – it’s a red herring. My comment is, “The child is as much a victim as its mother. Rape is the only crime with a death penalty for the victim.”

 

[TheApologist]

“I have two children and two grandchildren. To sayh that I don’t know what it is like to have children, to care for them, raise them and love them is sexism!”

Mostly the argument is that the man will never have to go through childbirth. Do you have something to counter this?

Now culturally, men tend to be more active, more visible and so on. But some of the most committed pro-life people I know are women.

This is a good argument. Also those who have been mothers would be the most committed, I’m assuming.

Disregard the issue of rape – it’s a red herring. My comment is, “The child is as much a victim as its mother. Rape is the only crime with a death penalty for the victim.”

But, alas, this is the point on which my friends disagree with the Catholic Church. They say the emotional damage of birthing the child and then putting it up for adoption will be greater than having an abortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mostly the argument is that the man will never have to go through childbirth. Do you have something to counter this?

I once had an RPG 7 go through my command track, and blow me off and down a hillside. The resulting injuries included a compound fracture of the collar bone. I came back to the company the next day, and 8 days later we hit an anti-tank mine and the track rolled over on me. That broke several ribs and re-fractured the collar bone (which was just beginning to knit.) I stayed in command for quite a while like that – and it hurt every single day.

Does that count?

This is a good argument. Also those who have been mothers would be the most committed, I’m assuming.

I find few mothers who really approve of abortion. It’s very hard to look at your child and say, “Gee. I should have killed this little sucker.”

But, alas, this is the point on which my friends disagree with the Catholic Church. They say the emotional damage of birthing the child and then putting it up for adoption will be greater than having an abortion.

And the life of the child is worth nothing, eh?

There is an old saying, “Hard cases make bad law.” They’re using a statistically insignificant “hard case” to justify a bad law.

 

[TheApologist]

I once had an RPG 7 go through my command track, and blow me off and down a hillside. The resulting injuries included a compound fracture of the collar bone. I came back to the company the next day, and 8 days later we hit an anti-tank mine and the track rolled over on me. That broke several ribs and re-fractured the collar bone (which was just beginning to knit.) I stayed in command for quite a while like that – and it hurt every single day.

Does that count?

I would say, yes. Ouch and sorry…

I find few mothers who really approve of abortion. It’s very hard to look at your child and say, “Gee. I should have killed this little sucker.”

Rarely did I when I was young say “gee, my mom should have killed me.” That was the point of my prolife shirt…I survived legalized abortion. The sad thing is that many people believe legal means safe and legal means moral.

And the life of the child is worth nothing, eh?

There is an old saying, “Hard cases make bad law.” They’re using a statistically insignificant “hard case” to justify a bad law.

Yeah, I told them that rape-caused abortion is a very small percentage indeed of the abortion in the world. I just can’t believe my friend said “it’s her body.” It isn’t her body. It’s a completely new and alive human being in need of shelter, blood- and oxygen-production for a short time. The rest…development of the baby and direction of the bodily functions go to the baby. I just don’t see how people can say “that’s not a life.”

 

[anamchara]

Instead of arguing about abortion with a friend why can’t you just try and talk about the miracle of birth and how much we respect this as Catholics. Also the miracle of conception to birth…I watched a beautiful and profound program once years ago on PBS. It was very scientific and went into detail about conception to birth. It opened my eyes. It really strenghten my faith. You can’t watch that without reflecting on how incredible Gods power is.

Maybe knowing our facts about this gift would open more eyes and change hearts. Just a thought.

 

[anamchara]

Vern, thank you for serving…God Bless you

 

[BarbG]

I seldom make a comment, but this topic is one of my favorites for one reason only – IF in the case of partial birth abortion or just plain abortion it was being done to ANIMALS the animal rights activists would be MARCHING around the White House protesting, and the PRESS would be with them – BUT if it’s a human life, that life doesn’t seem to be important. I have three adopted children in my family, and I thank GOD that those birth Moms decided to have those babies.
I can’t understand why ANYONE would be in favor of partial birth abortion!!!

 

[rayne89]

When the rape issue gets brought up I say “Ok so you believe in making abortion illegal in all cases except rape?”
And I get “Well…no.”
“So why do you bring that up? If you believe abortion is ok in all circumstances why are you are arguing about rape cases which is relative to an infinitesimal amount of abortion procedures. Let’s make all abortion illegal except for cases of rape.”
“Well no, it is the woman’s body. Who are we to tell her what to do.”
"So this really isn’t about rape cases then?

If I get “Well I think there should be some retrictions.”
“Ok why?”
“Well I don’t think you should be able to have an abortion for any reason but I don’t think it’s fair to make a victim of rape or incest carry the child.”
“So it is a child?”
“Well…”
“It’s ok to kill a child that is conceived during rape or incest but not one that conceived during normal sexual relations?”
“Well I just don’t think it’s fair to woman to make her have the baby of the rapist.”
" An innocent child deserves to die for sins of his father? The baby did nothing. Do you think aborting her child is going to make a woman feel better about the rape?"
It goes on and on but you get the idea.

 

[chevalier]

Oh yes. The assumption that you make an exception for birth control if you’re Catholic is omnipresent.

I think I’m going to get a pro-life badge or something.

Sorely pwning all arguments in favour of abortion in case of rape is not difficult. It’s just an emotional matter and sooner or later you’ll have defeated all the person’s arguments but will have not changed the person’s stance.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

An important thing to remember is that the pro-choice stance is a selfish one. It seems to me that the argument over whether an embryo is a human being has ceased to be the main selling point, and that the movement has instead focused on preserving a woman’s right to choose: “me, me, me!”.

That seems to go right along with the powerful sense of individuality that Americans hold so dear. It seems that the otherwise noble ideal of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” is an obstacle – which is ironic, since they are listed in descending order of importance!

By the way, I’ve passed 7 or 8 kidney stones (I’ve long since lost count), and I can line up at least three mothers who have also had that honor. Ask them what they think.

 

[chevalier]

But of course. It’s not about arguments, it’s not about the foetus or the child or the moment of conception or human nature or distinct entity, so it doesn’t ultimately matter how you define it or where you place it. It’s all about the choice. It’s even in the name of the whole movement: pro-choice.

If you nuke apart all their arguments, they will perhaps admit to the pro-choice sentiment being invincible.

 

[Island_Oak]

There have also been numerous discussions on these forums of the Catholic Church’s allowance for a woman who has been raped and has not ovulated to undertake medical intervention to prevent a pregnancy from occuring. Details can probably be found in the archives.

 

[blessedtoo]

No…46 million abortions take place worldwide in one year. 46 million…

This is incorrect. It is 48 million SINCE 1973, not every year.
nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html

 

[cyberwolf001]

I’m pro-choice myself…

Women can choose to have sex. Or choose not too

 

[RyanL]

This is incorrect. It is 48 million SINCE 1973, not every year.
nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html

How I wish you were right.

The numbers you cite are correct for the United States, but not for the world as a whole.

For the world as a whole, the Pro-Abortion and Pro-Contracption Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI)'s Sharing Responsibility: Women, Society and Abortion Worldwide, New York: AGI, 1999, the numbers are as follows:

46 million women around the world have abortions each year. Of these women, 78% live in developing countries and 22% in developed countries.

About 11% of all women having abortions live in Africa, 58% in Asia and 9% in Latin America and the Caribbean. The remainder live in Europe (17%) and elsewhere in the developed world (5%).

In much of the world, liberalization of abortion laws occurred rapidly between 1950 and 1985. By early 1986, 36 countries had liberal abortion laws, permitting women to obtain the procedure for social or medical reasons or without regard to reason.

%between%%between%
TA,

Perhaps you should change your tactics. You pretty much clobbered your friend with the Truth - resulting in the “buzz off” you received. With a more tough-minded individual, you can use logical argument to win an opponent. With a more emotionally-driven opponent (like yours), I believe a different approach might work better.

Perhaps you could broach the subject again and use some of the tactics of the Feminists For Life (FFL) - tell your friend that Women deserve better than abortion. Tell your friend the truth - that abortion hurts women. Go through some of the adds on the FFL’s webpage and try to use that approach with your friend. Talk about some of the other damning statistics regarding the health of women, then ask if these women really felt they had a “choice”. Try going here and following some of the links.

If people knew some of the hazards for women associated with abortion, there would be far fewer of them and there would be meaningful restrictions proposed even by those in the Party of Death. If your friend won’t listen to the logical arguments against abortion, appeal to the emotional arguments against abortion.

Just some free advice.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[BlestOne]

Apologist,
When someone uses the rape excuse on me this is what I say:

Is it the child’s fault that you were raped? Why kill the child?
That baby is half your DNA.
That is like saying because man A assaulted you, you can kill innocent baby B who had nothing to do with the assault.
Don’t you realize that an abortion is like a second rape?
How can you not love something made from your flesh?

I have a bunch of others but usually these are what I use.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Apologist,
When someone uses the rape excuse on me this is what I say:

Is it the child’s fault that you were raped? Why kill the child?
That baby is half your DNA.
That is like saying because man A assaulted you, you can kill innocent baby B who had nothing to do with the assault.
Don’t you realize that an abortion is like a second rape?
How can you not love something made from your flesh?

I have a bunch of others but usually these are what I use.

I repeat, the child in a rape case is as much a victim as the mother. Rape is the only crime with a death penalty for the victim.

 

[chevalier]

There have also been numerous discussions on these forums of the Catholic Church’s allowance for a woman who has been raped and has not ovulated to undertake medical intervention to prevent a pregnancy from occuring. Details can probably be found in the archives.

No problem with that. She owes nothing to the rapist’s sperm (not talking about rape in marriage). She did not choose the act and fertilisation has not yet happened. Problems arise when the contraceptive could abort a previously conceived foetus from consensual intercourse or if there might have been enough time for fertilisation and if it had happened, the new foetus could kill be killed. When there’s no risk of aborting a foetus or applying the post-coital contraceptive effect to consensual intercourse, I can’t see any problem with after-rape post-coital contraception. Abortion after rape is homicide.

 

[hasikelee]

*Originally Posted by TheApologist *http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Does anyone have a good response to “you’re a man! you don’t know what having a baby is like and you never will!”

Ask them if they have had a baby.

Do doctors who treat cancer have cancer themselves? lol!

Think if we followed that way of living in every aspect of our life. Since we’re not presidents, we can’t complain about the war in Iraq.

Since we’re not women/men, we can’t lobby for equal rights, or buy pants, or donate to breast cancer funds.

Whenever someone mentions this line about men being unable to talk about abortion, all I can do is snicker. Then I start naming all the pro-abortion elites. For example, does your debator know that 94% of professionals who perform abortion are men? Does she know how many men radically support abortion and contraception?

Men are very interested in this debate. It gives them free reign over women and all the sex they could get without a price. If she wants to discount your voice in this argument, she better be prepared to discount the bigheads supporting her movement.