"Well, I'm Catholic and I'm pro-choice..."

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheApologist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There was a time in this country – and not so long ago – when using the “N” word was socially acceptable and politicians could defend segregation and win office. But that has changed.

There was a time when wife beating was socially acceptable, and a wife who called the police got short shrift. That has changed, too.

There was a time when rape cast an aspersion on the victim, and the standard technique for a defense lawyer was to put the victim on the stand and attack her character and morals. But that has changed.

As long as abortion is socially acceptable, we will have huge numbers of abortions. Only when society officially recognizes abortion for what it is – murder – will attitudes begin to change.
 
There was a time in this country – and not so long ago – when using the “N” word was socially acceptable and politicians could defend segregation and win office. But that has changed.

There was a time when wife beating was socially acceptable, and a wife who called the police got short shrift. That has changed, too.

There was a time when rape cast an aspersion on the victim, and the standard technique for a defense lawyer was to put the victim on the stand and attack her character and morals. But that has changed.

As long as abortion is socially acceptable, we will have huge numbers of abortions. Only when society officially recognizes abortion for what it is – murder – will attitudes begin to change.
Well said.

Iowa Mike
 
You are either for God and His laws or you are against God and His laws there is no middle ground. Abortion is the taking of an innocent human beings life.
 
You are either for God and His laws or you are against God and His laws there is no middle ground. Abortion is the taking of an innocent human beings life.
That’s exactly what Vern is defending. Society doesn’t recognize this. That is why we must go forward as those who were against racial slurs, wife beating, and the like. We must be justly angered and fight for the truth.
 
That’s exactly what Vern is defending. Society doesn’t recognize this. That is why we must go forward as those who were against racial slurs, wife beating, and the like. We must be justly angered and fight for the truth.
Let me point out that all those “attitude adjustments” I listed were accomplished by changing the law. It is through law that society officially states what is and is not acceptable.
 
Let me point out that all those “attitude adjustments” I listed were accomplished by changing the law. It is through law that society officially states what is and is not acceptable.
Yeah that’s what I meant. We must become justly angered and fight for the truth(any moral way possible…#1 Individual Discussion #2 Law).

It’s really sad…a lot of abortions come from women with this thought line: “I don’t want to have a child right now! Wait I don’t really have to…there’s abortion. But is abortion bad? Well it’s legal, so that must mean it’s okay. Heck, if it’s legal, it’s moral and safe too!”
 
Yeah that’s what I meant. We must become justly angered and fight for the truth(any moral way possible…#1 Individual Discussion #2 Law).

It’s really sad…a lot of abortions come from women with this thought line: "I don’t want to have a child right now! Wait I don’t really have to…there’s abortion. But is abortion bad? Well it’s legal, so that must mean it’s okay. Heck, if it’s legal, it’s moral and safe too!"
(My emphasis.)

That’s exactly right. When people talk about “eliminating the conditions” that result in so many abortions, the first step is to make abortion socially unacceptable. And the first step in doing that is to make it illegal.

As long as abortion is legal, we’ll never get to first base.
 
This is my approach but what makes you assume people with this approach are not trying to work on conversation of the heart as well to our Catholic faith? Also, why not finding ways to teach our youth that are not in the faith how important Gods gift of life is? What would be wrong with programs that could do this?

We can catch more flies with honey my friend, by getting rid of conditions or cirrcumstances we can also bring people in.

I can assure you when I was between the ages of 16 to 20 I wouldn’t have listened to yells of “murder” or being called selfish.

If that is really your response to people who are not Catholic and have no understanding then you will never change hearts. It’s a very serious matter. And it’s not so black and white.
I am quite serious, and I have changed hearts. I believe that changing hearts is more important than changing laws. Haven’t we all heard pro-choice people talk about “return to the days of back-alley practices?” With hearts and minds where they are today, making abortion illegal would not stop the practice.

My answer is not quite so short/blunt as I gave above, but is the same in substance. It is about causes, and the root cause is placing self above God.

Hence my appeal to return to the tenets of the faith. (Yes, “return.” Virtually EVERYONE thought the practice of abortion was immoral just a couple of generations ago. Yes, it still happend.) When abortion was practiced in old Rome, how did we stop it then? By converting the population. Convert to authentic Catholicism and abortion is unthinkable.

People who want to fight causes and conditions, like those who want it “safe legal and rare” are generally intelligent and thoughtful; they want to acheive social good. That’s wonderful, so do I. I just think they are misguided. I think we should work for social good because it is good.

I can think of no system that makes abortion on demand legal, that can make it rare. “Our birth control failed” is the number one cause and condition.

Reduction in the use of birth control cannot reasonably be coercive. It must come from voluntary adherence to the tenets of a faith that demands chastity.
 
I am quite serious, and I have changed hearts. I believe that changing hearts is more important than changing laws. Haven’t we all heard pro-choice people talk about “return to the days of back-alley practices?” With hearts and minds where they are today, making abortion illegal would not stop the practice.
.
And I can assure you that leaving it legal and hence socially-approved will not change hearts and minds.
 
I am quite serious, and I have changed hearts. I believe that changing hearts is more important than changing laws. Haven’t we all heard pro-choice people talk about “return to the days of back-alley practices?” With hearts and minds where they are today, making abortion illegal would not stop the practice.
I think that is a noble but naive endeavor. And in the meantime, while we are changing hearts, 3,700 babies are being aborted each day in the US alone. If there were any other law allowing 3,700 members of our society to be killed per day, would we wait until we could change hearts before we took to the streets and demanded the laws be changed?

The myth of the back alley abortion and the number of women that actually died as a result has been perpetrated for nearly forty years by radical feminists. Yes, it did happen but not to the extent that they would have you believe. When something is unlawful, people, regardless of how they “feel” on the issue, will be deterred from going through with it. If overturning Roe eliminated even half the number of abortions performed in the country, it would be an enormous success for the pro-life side.
 
Oops, wait. I guess I wasn’t clear, I am NOT for “leaving” abortion legal. If I could make it illegal today I would, and I tried help next door in South Dak.

I think that realistically, the way to end (and legally prohibit) abortion is to get the cultural momentum against it, one heart at a time. Being legal,or illegal is no gurantee of acceptance or rejection as legitimate behavior.

Alcohol went from legal to illegal (and back) because popular opinion was contrary to the law of the land.

I also think that it’s harder to win the argument “against” abortion (or anything else) than the argument “for” Christ.
 
I recently had a debate with an old aquaintance and he used the unwanted argument; that no child should be born “unwanted”. I replied by asking if we should go out and destroy the “unwanted” homeless population. “After all, the world is full of pain and tragedy”, I continued, “perhaps the answer is to sterlize ourselves and outlaw child bearing”. Pro-choicers have no argument which is why they use such stupid reasoning.

The issue is personhood, and a denial of the fact that the baby inside the womb is a human person at the moment of conception.
 
Abortion can be attacked effectively on purely secular grounds. In many ways, I think the pro-life movement will almost have to move toward a more secular stance in order to win over the public.

If you ask me, the best answer to the very commonly heard “it’s a women’s issue” argument is to reply “no, it’s a human rights issue”.

Tell them to look at the abortion issue as a trial. What is on trial is whether a newly conceived fetus is or is not a human life. If it can be proven that the newly conceived fetus is, in fact, “guilty” of not being a human life, then it will be okay to go ahead and dispose of it.

Ask them to prove to you, on a purely scientific basis, when life begins. Have them prove at what point an abortion goes from being legal to being capital murder. Is it at one week, two months, six months, the head of the baby about to crown, half the body out of the birth canal? If they draw a line somewhere, ask them if it’s okay to abort a baby two hours or two minutes before that point. Why or why not? Some babies develop more quickly than others. Point out to them that if it’s okay to kill a baby at, say, eight weeks and earlier because of some gestational milestone that they have decided grants the baby membership into the human race then you will inevitably be killing some babies who reach that milestone at seven or seven-and-a-half weeks or seven weeks, six days, and 23 hours, and are, by the pro-choice supoorter’s own definition, human.

They are not allowed to resort in any of their arguments to what they think or what they believe or what they think ought to be. They must use science. Ask them to prove that a newly conceived fetus is not a human life. They cannot do it.

Now, of course, they are likely to ask you to prove that a newly conceived fetus is a human life. You can’t prove it either.

So, what do you do?

Well, in a trial, you have to go with a presumption of innocence. Since neither of you can conclusively prove to the other’s satisfaction that life does or does not begin at conception, then you must err on the side of protecting what might be a life.

As an aside, to answer the abortionists who say that “unwanted” children shouldn’t be born, tell them that they need to be consistent. Children at orphanages who haven’t been adopted are also “unwanted”. Ask them if they think it’s all right that if a child at an orphanage hasn’t been adopted after, oh, nine months or so, if it should be legal to euthanize the child.

As for those who think that abortion is okay in cases of rape and not in other cases: ask them why it’s not okay in other cases. They also need to be consistent. Abortion is entirely about whether or not the baby is a human life. If it’s not okay in other cases, then the only reason I can think of that it’s not okay to them in the other cases is that they believe the baby is a human life. Is a baby conceived via rape less human then a baby conceived by accident or at an inconvenient time? A baby does not choose it’s method of conception. Should the baby be executed because it was unfortunate enough to be conceived by rape? Does one crime justify the other?

Obviously, I think that once you bring God and the beliefs of the Church into the picture it only bolsters the argument against abortion. However, it seems that the close association between the Christian right and the pro-life movement takes away from the chances of the pro-life movement ever being transformed into a true human rights issue. The formerly marginalized homosexual community has won the acceptance of mainstream society by portraying their “plight” as a human rights issue. If the pro-life movement could, as repugnant as this sounds, take some lessons from what has happened with homosexuality in this country, it might make a big difference. Abortion really, truly is a human rights issue. There’s absolutely no question about it.
 
You know I think we need to alley with other faiths over this. An I don’t just mean Muslims, Jews, Protestants or our Orthodox brothers…

I mean the Buddhists, Pro-Life Pagans and the Hindus as well…
 
I go about changing hearts(as I am too young to go to March for Life and try to change hearts AND laws). If the person I am trying to enlighten is atheist, I will probably use the rational purely science aspect of my arguments. If the person is intelligent and religious, I go about my rational, scientific, “soul-searching,” “God is not pro-choice” arguments. NOW if the person is CATHOLIC and intelligent, I give them everything I have…starting with “To not follow Church teachings is to not be Catholic.”

We should find the pro-lifers among us and find our common ground. Then we should create a nice little huge electrical storm of life and then we force the weak prochoice dingy out of the rational sea…Yeah that didn’t even make sense to me. 😃 :cool:

In our minds should be the thought of saving innocent children…enforcing the Truth. NOT battering prochoicers until they are lost and even worse off then before. Life should be at the forefront of our conversations.

Let’s do it!..Starts marching off to Eye of the Tiger melody :hug1: + :signofcross: + :highprayer: + :grouphug: = :rotfl: (that’s the closest to marching smiley they have … 😃 )
 
Oops, wait. I guess I wasn’t clear, I am NOT for “leaving” abortion legal. If I could make it illegal today I would, and I tried help next door in South Dak.

I think that realistically, the way to end (and legally prohibit) abortion is to get the cultural momentum against it, one heart at a time. Being legal,or illegal is no gurantee of acceptance or rejection as legitimate behavior.

Alcohol went from legal to illegal (and back) because popular opinion was contrary to the law of the land.

I also think that it’s harder to win the argument “against” abortion (or anything else) than the argument “for” Christ.
Let’s remember that Roe v. Wade was not an election. The American people have never been allowed to vote on abortioni – and when segments of them are allowed (as in North Dakota) they are likely to severely restrict it.

What we need to do is push Roe v. Wade aside – it was, after all, the Supreme Court deciding by fiat something that was not politically viable – a 20th Century version of the disasterous Dred Scott decision. Let us then work state-by-state to stop this crime.

But the key is social disapproval of abortion. And society expresses its disapproval of intollerable acts by making them illegal.
 
Use whatever method you see fit to stop the murder!

Social disapproval + Political disapproval = no abortion!

I think the entire nation should be allowed to vote on abortion. There should be a few options on the ballot like this:

If you want all abortion to be available check here

If you want all abortion short of partial birth check here

If you only want abortion in the case of rape and safety of the mother, check here

If you never want an abortion, but could accept it in case of a mother who has a fatal disease which cannot subside unless the baby is aborted…check here

I’m sure all the hard core prochoicers would be suprised on what the nation thinks. A majority of prochoice people want it in limited circumstances.
 
Use whatever method you see fit to stop the murder!

Social disapproval + Political disapproval = no abortion!

I think the entire nation should be allowed to vote on abortion. There should be a few options on the ballot like this:

If you want all abortion to be available check here

If you want all abortion short of partial birth check here

If you only want abortion in the case of rape and safety of the mother, check here

If you never want an abortion, but could accept it in case of a mother who has a fatal disease which cannot subside unless the baby is aborted…check here

I’m sure all the hard core prochoicers would be suprised on what the nation thinks. A majority of prochoice people want it in limited circumstances.
Hmmmm . . . and we could total the responses, starting from the bottom of the list and stop when we had a majority.

Not perfect, but a lot better than what we have now, when activists judges have opened the floodgates and keep them open by striking down every attempt to control the murder of the innocent.
 
That actually does sound like a good idea…Let’s file a request to the President to have nationwide official ballots! Seriously…a majority of the country is okay with abortion because they think it is rare, safe, and mostly in cases of safety and rape. There should be a governmental undercover study of every abortion clinic in the country. I wonder how many abortionists would be charged with murder(legal post-live birth murder).

After the governmental undercover investigation of every clinic, I would then want the real atrocities of every clinic to go on trial.

Do you know what would happen if every abortion clinic was required to show a fetal development/abortion procedures video to their patients? Abortion would probably go down 90%.

I think the biggest problems are these:
-patients don’t need to tell their parents to get an abortion, they do have to tell their parents for piercing
-abortionists lie and kill…in ways which are currently against the law
-not a single thing has to be said about the procedures
-a majority of abortions aren’t for rape or safety…they are mostly because the mom “isn’t ready” or doesn’t want her baby

If the public knew what was going on, the abortion situation would change BIG TIME.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top