A
anamchara
Guest
ya sure and that’s why we have Gregorian Chant all over for people to listen to
- Status
C
Chris-WA
Guest
After all this debate about the value of Life Teen, based on the writings of Pope Benedict, I think it’s safe to say that although the Chruch has approved Life Teen, the rock music needs to stop, as well as the liturgical abuses that others have already mentioned. Rock music is not appropriate for the liturgy under any circumstances. It would be interesting to see how removing this kind of music from Life Teen would affect attendance.
V
VociMike
Guest
So what percentage of LT Masses employ chant and/or polyphony exclusively or predominantly?
B
benedictgal
Guest
Chris, what the LT devotees fail to realize is that they’ve already received marching orders from Rome to cease and desist the rock music. Evidently they didn’t read the post wherein I quoted the Adoreums September 2004 edition where LT was told to stop their liturgical abuses and the rock music.
I’m afraid that LT is heading towards the same road as the Neocatechumenal movement. While both are approved organizations (and, agapewolf and company, no one ever doubted that), Rome has told them that they needed to cease and desist their liturgical abuses. In fact, the Holy Father gave the Neocats a two-year deadline to shape up. This deadline will come to pass next month. Unfortunately, many Neocats seem to take this as a recommendation and not a reprobation, but Pope Benedict and Cardinal Arinze made themselves perfectly clear. Rome has also been crystal clear on LT and its treatment of the Mass.
Unfortunately, when you look at LT with rose-colored glasses, the tint gets in the way of the truth and you can’t see the clear picture.
A
agapewolf
Guest
And again, a personal attack of being blind. You are no longer reading my posts. I have proven I am not. Stop it. Just stop.
B
benedictgal
Guest
Look, agape, this is not a personal attack. No one here is saying that LT is not approved. The BIG CONCERN that some of us have is that LT is taking the wrong approach when it comes to the Mass. When I say that you have blind devotion to LT, it’s because you don’t want to see anything wrong with it. While there are merits to LT, there are also some deep and serious issues that several of us have tried to point out.
It is you who are not reading the posts. I love the Cursillo movement, but, they’ve got some very serious issues with the way they are handling the Mass. The Mass isn’t something that we cobble up for ourselves. It is a gift that we receive. We receive it intact. We need to hand it down to the next generation intact.
There are some serious deficiencies with the way LT looks at the Mass. These need to be addressed so that the youth partiicpating in LT will not be lead down the wrong path. So, I ask you, have you not read Spirit of the Liturgy by Pope Benedict? Have you not read Sacramentum Caritatis? Many of the words that I have said do not come from my head. They come from someone who is much wiser than I. Please read them.
A
agapewolf
Guest
No, B-gal,
You are not reading the posts…
You are making personal attacks, I have said before that I am offended by the reference to “being blind”. I have said OVER AND OVER that I acknowledge there are abuses and they should stop. Really, over and over. READ the posts. And as I have also said, over and over, it is LIFETEEN that said to stop the abuses. These are particular parishes that are continuing. Just as you wouldn’t judge the whole church some sinful members, you can’t judge lifeteen on some parishes.
I have read the documents.
I’m tired of the personal attacks. I will not continue in such a conversation, espeiclaly when I have answered your arguments.
Stop the references to being blind. It is very personal and I resent it.
You are not reading the posts…
You are making personal attacks, I have said before that I am offended by the reference to “being blind”. I have said OVER AND OVER that I acknowledge there are abuses and they should stop. Really, over and over. READ the posts. And as I have also said, over and over, it is LIFETEEN that said to stop the abuses. These are particular parishes that are continuing. Just as you wouldn’t judge the whole church some sinful members, you can’t judge lifeteen on some parishes.
I have read the documents.
I’m tired of the personal attacks. I will not continue in such a conversation, espeiclaly when I have answered your arguments.
Stop the references to being blind. It is very personal and I resent it.
A
anamchara
Guest
my two cents, he/she has read your posts and has replied. The problem is said poster doesn’t agree with you.
B
benedictgal
Guest
These are not personal attacks. The problem is that you don’t seem to believe that there are some serious problems with the way LT is handling the Mass.
Incidentally, if LT says that it has stopped the abuse, why are posters like Chris and others still witnessing the same things that LT was supposed to have ceased?
You need to step back and look at the situation at hand, and, be open to criticism, especially when it concerns mishandling the Mass.
A
agapewolf
Guest
Your implication of calling me blind is personal.
You read the statement from Lifeteen yourself. They directed the parishes to stop.
WHy isn’t a LOT of parishes following the directions of the Church? You cannot hold LT solely responsible.
You keep repeating yourself that you think I don’t believe that it exists…read about 10 of my last posts where i have acknowledged that abuses to exist. Everywhere, including some lifeteen parishes.
I cannot continue this ridiculous cyclical argument becaus eyou are not reading or acknowledging what I am saying This is ridiculous. Read them again.
B
benedictgal
Guest
But, these abuses are happening specifically where LT is concerned. You may have admitted that this stuff is still happening, but LT, at this point, is liable for what is happening right now.
It is you who still cannot see the points being made. You are the one who is reacting and making this thing personal. It is not.
C
Chris-WA
Guest
LT has it’s share of abuses, but I also recognize that liturgical abuses are rampant in parishes all over the country at Novus Ordo masses as well. I’ve never been to a TLM mass, but I suspect there are probably less abuses there because those involved probably tend to be more loyal to tradition and less likely to make up stuff as they go along. I could be wrong on that, but from what I gather the people who want TLM seem to be very interested in perserving the sacredness of the mass and doing things in strict accordance with liturgical law.
I just think some of the stuff that goes on at LT mass is so over-the-top wrong that it needs to be fixed right away. We should all be interested in ensuring litugical abuses at other masses are corrected as well. The Church has given the necessary guidance. There are plenty of documents that show the right way to do things, so now it’s just a matter of the willingness of local bishops, pastors, and lay people to follow it. The last part tends to be the problem. We don’t like being told what to do, and often our pride gets in the way.
P
palmas85
Guest
Agape, we all know by now that Lifeteen has sent out a memo instructing it’s groups to stop the prohibited practices. Yet apparently many of them have not. The question I will ask is why? If the members pf Lifeteen are as dedicated to the faith as you seem to believe why would they continue to engage in prohibited avtivity? It makes no sense.
That being said, I’ll tell you exactly what I think is going on. Years ago, the Jesuit order was way out in left field. They were engaged in all manner of activities that were in direct conflict with the Vatican. Pope Paul VI tried to reign them in and every time he did, they came out with memos, notifications and statements that **prooved ** beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were in full compliance with what the Holy Father ordered.
They weren’t, but they presented enough evidence to show that they were, that they were able to keep going for years blithly doing as they wished in open defiance to what the Holy Father said.
They tried the same thing with Pope John Paul II. He responded by removing their leaders and replacing them with his own people. That straightened the problem out to a degree although problems still existed and still do.
So what I think is going on is that Life Teen puts out a memo that directs all it’s groups to observe the rubrics and stop engaging in prohibited activity. But it also tells them it realizes this may be hard for some to accept. Hey, they’ve given us an out on this one.
If it is going to be hard, the change must of course come gradually, so that no one is hurt too much. So we can take time to institute the changes that have been mandated and still be in compliance.So, the individual parishes continue doing as they want while claiming to be in compliance beacuse eventually they will be.
And of course, the leaders at Life Teen not being fools, realize that this is exactly what is happening and thay can rightfully say, Hey, we told them to stop, what more can we do? So they are covered as well.
So in essence it is a shell game. Nothing really changes, everything stays pretty much the same and everybody can say we’re doing exactly what we are supposed to and are in full compliance.
B
benedictgal
Guest
Palmas, you’ve made some very solid points. There is also another group that has come under the gun, so to speak, the Neocatechumenal Movement. They have been “celebrating” their own form of the Mass since the movement’s inception.Agape, we all know by now that Lifeteen has sent out a memo instructing it’s groups to stop the prohibited practices. Yet apparently many of them have not. The question I will ask is why? If the members pf Lifeteen are as dedicated to the faith as you seem to believe why would they continue to engage in prohibited avtivity? It makes no sense.
That being said, I’ll tell you exactly what I think is going on. Years ago, the Jesuit order was way out in left field. They were engaged in all manner of activities that were in direct conflict with the Vatican. Pope Paul VI tried to reign them in and every time he did, they came out with memos, notifications and statements that **prooved ** beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were in full compliance with what the Holy Father ordered.
They weren’t, but they presented enough evidence to show that they were, that they were able to keep going for years blithly doing as they wished in open defiance to what the Holy Father said.
They tried the same thing with Pope John Paul II. He responded by removing their leaders and replacing them with his own people. That straightened the problem out to a degree although problems still existed and still do.
So what I think is going on is that Life Teen puts out a memo that directs all it’s groups to observe the rubrics and stop engaging in prohibited activity. But it also tells them it realizes this may be hard for some to accept. Hey, they’ve given us an out on this one.
So, the individual parishes continue doing as they want while claiming to be in compliance beacuse eventually they will be.
And of course, the leaders at Life Teen not being fools, realize that this is exactly what is happening and thay can rightfully say, Hey, we told them to stop, what more can we do? So they are covered as well.
So in essence it is a shell game. Nothing really changes, everything stays pretty much the same and everybody can say we’re doing exactly what we are supposed to and are in full compliance.
Some of the more bizarre rituals include gathering around a table, as though they were guests seated at a dinner banquet and then having one of their members give a talk (in lieu of the homily) and strange music. They also insist on having “their” liturgies celebrated Saturday evening, apart from the regular parish Mass.
In November, 2005, Pope Benedict XVI gave them a cease and desist order and told them that they had two years to clean up their act. Since then, many of them have released statement indicating that Benedict’s comments were merely “suggestions.” Cardinal Arinze told them that the opposite was true. Their moratorium is supposed to expire next month. If they are anything like the Jesuits and LT examples you gave, they will continue the status quo until someone reports them.
F
Freshman88
Guest
I am the COMPLETE opposite.
Despite going to one of the best universities in the world, I’m not very bright. I need solemnity, silence and beauty to remind me of what is taking place. The smells, the bells, the silence and Latin all remind me that something out of this world is happening. I do NOT want to relate to the mass. I want something that is not of this world, I want something more.
I want the mass to point upwards, I do not want it dragged down to my level by being made relatable.
All my catholic friends have had the very teeny, youthy, charismatically styled masses shoved down our throat. We all came to the brink of losing our faith … then we find the TLM.
The TLM saved our faith. There is a cry amongths the youth for revrenece, holiness and solemnity. We become sick at the sound of Christian rock and guitars and refuse to hold hands during the Pater Noster. We received the Eucharist on our tongue, and we say the rosary in Latin.
the only problem … NO ONE wants to cater to us. There are NO traditional youth groups. There are teen groups that appeal to charismatic style masses, and tons of them! Its sad that we have no alternative, and are forced to join youth groups that have a liturgical spirit that we find repulsive.
I am not alone, all my catholic friends, (under 20) feel the same.
Its very interesting that two different groups seem to be forming.
D
Dauphin
Guest
LifeTeen is the exact opposite of what teenagers really need. When I first saw the beauty of true Catholic liturgy, I was shocked! Having grown up Catholic post-Vatican II, I had never imagined that the church had such treasures. I was blown away by gregorian chant and sacred polyphony - so much about the Mass is communicated by the quality of the music and the atmosphere of reverence. At the age of 18, I had no idea that the Mass was a sacrifice - and a mystery. Seeing the Traditional Latin Mass made me realize what I had never understood - that the Mass is where heaven and earth meet.
Bringing the Mass down to the lowest common denominator by introducting secular music and profane forms of art only lessens the value of the liturgy in the eyes of teenagers. Everything about the Mass should reflect that is is the Sacrifice of the Cross. All the music and atmosphere of the Mass should reflect the unfathomable beauty - the mystery - of what’s going on. The Life Teen Mass does the exact opposite.
Bringing the Mass down to the lowest common denominator by introducting secular music and profane forms of art only lessens the value of the liturgy in the eyes of teenagers. Everything about the Mass should reflect that is is the Sacrifice of the Cross. All the music and atmosphere of the Mass should reflect the unfathomable beauty - the mystery - of what’s going on. The Life Teen Mass does the exact opposite.
F
Freshman88
Guest
I am in the exact same boat!
Funny that you are from Kingston - I’m from Burlington.
I guess that we are products of that great Ontario Catholic school system - eh?
heh, almost went to Queens too, but found a better school
.
D
Dempsey1919
Guest
I disagree that teens need things like the Life Teen Masses. I am 21 years old and I attend the Tridentine Mass. From my own personal experience, I can say that the Latin Mass has greatly enriched my spirituality in ways that the New Mass did not. Teens need reverent, sacred, ancient and holy Masses, not Masses which are like rock concerts.
A
agapewolf
Guest
Your experiences are your experiences…valid as they are, they are your experiences. I have a different one for myself, and the hundreds around me that I know.
All I can say is that the 200+ teens at one parish I play at, and about 50-60 teens at another parish I play at, and about 100+ teens at a 3rd parish that I sometimes play at in our city… (along with more parishes that I havn’t been to)…, along with 3 of the 4 new priests ordained in 2006, and the newly ordained deacon this year (all from my diocese)
and oh yea…the majority of the teens of the higher tens of thousands that go to the Steubenville youth conferences…
would disagree with you.
I’m going to stop posting on these forums so much and do some more youth ministry. Where everyone else is.
F
Freshman88
Guest
I was one of those kids, and my faith was weak.
How many of them have been exposed to Traditional Catholicism. I’m willing to bet is a small number, the TLM is far and few in between. There is no such thing as traditional youth group. There are hundreads and hundreads of teen parishes and groups however.
If they could truly experience both, like I had, I think they would come to the same conclusion. I truly believe that my decision was objective.
we need reverence and we need catechism!
be glad that you can go and help your “youth ministry”… we face opposition at every corner. We don’t have the same opportunity - be glad that you do.
- Status