Were all the apostles married?

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It seems to me that, having lost the argument, you are shifting ground. Your response is an admission that the apostles were married and there is no indication they were continent with their wives as a matter of policy.

But I will bear with you, for a minute at least. If I say the sun rises in the east, as a result of personal observation, will you find fault with that? If I find the Bible says something, as a result of research, will you find fault with that, even if the M. has not ruled on the verse? That seems to be what you are saying.

I am not saying that I am even correct in the end. I am not dictating what you are to believe, I am not forcing my belief on you over and against your own conscience, which is what the M. does, at least to Hefele and Berengar, if not to countless others. I am not trying to intimidate you into silence by saying I am the one in power, so believe me without hesitation or I will crush you and send you to hell.

I am saying what I am finding, and I am looking at what other people are saying, and there are holes in their positions. There are scholarly doubts among authoritative Catholics - Duane admitted that he was caught there - and the word is ‘life’ not ‘wife’ - and there is no verse in the Bible showing that the apostles and elders and overseers were continent with their wives. There is no such commandment. There are verses Paul wrote in telling Timothy what to look for in elders that said married men were the ones to go after, not the single men. And it goes on and on, and this is your response: to change the subject. It is a discipline: Anglican priests are not enjoined continence and neither are Eastern Catholics or Orthodox, to my knowledge. It is man-made tradition, as has been demonstrated and admitted, not Tradition, and yet this is the answer you give: change the subject. I am to be castigated and rebuked for acting like the M., when the M. has said it is a DISCIPLINE. You have not answered my objections except to do this: change the subject.

I had thought better of you.
I only admitted that I should have used lowercase t instead of uppercase t. As to the rest of your argument, you still have not answered why gunaika must be translated as wife in Corinthians, but it is translated as women when it comes to dealing with women traveling with Jesus in Matthew and Luke. It could just as easily be translated as wives meaning Jesus was married, but you would never accept that. I also asked you why you use definitions for celibate that are not in the dictionary, you did not answer.

As to the original translation, I am saying I am correct. The Douay-Rheims with commentary by Challoner
[1] Am not I free? Am not I an apostle? Have not I seen Christ Jesus our Lord? Are not you my work in the Lord? [2] And if unto others I be not an apostle, but yet to you I am. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. [3] My defence with them that do examine me is this. [4] Have not we power to eat and to drink? [5] Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[5] A woman, a sister: Some erroneous translators have corrupted this text by rendering it, a sister, a wife: whereas, it is certain, St. Paul had no wife (chap. 7 ver. 7, 8) and that he only speaks of such devout women, as, according to the custom of the Jewish nation, waited upon the preachers of the gospel, and supplied them with necessaries
and the word is ‘life’ not ‘wife’
The word is wife, this is the passage I was referring to;
29n He said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or** wife** or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30who will not receive [back] an overabundant return in this present age and eternal life in the age to come.”
 
Exactly. Although the text doesn’t mention ‘wife’ but “life”… and I personally think this can also come to mean everyday situations not just dramatic changes of circumstance:

*'Matthew 16:24-26 -

The Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it. What then, will a man gain if he wins the whole world and ruins his life? Or what has a man to offer in exchange for his life?”’*
Actually I was referring to Luke:
29n He said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30who will not receive [back] an overabundant return in this present age and eternal life in the age to come.”
 
Actually I was referring to Luke:
Ah, okay, sorry. We have a cross comparison then which is interesting. One account details loved people who in the other account constitutes everything in the person’s “life”.

First, from the two accounts, does this show that our Lord understands that after Him it is people who are everything - it is people who make up our “life”?!

Second, and more relevant to the thread, is that St. Peter was the Rock upon which the Church is built.

The other apostles were not. Though their apostleship are also the fibres that make up the foundations of the Church.

My point is that maybe St. Peter had to make a bigger sacrifice to grow into the person whom he was to become (also entwined in that which he was to represent) - maybe he had to sacrifice his wife’s company for our Lord, and if we remember that Abraham was tested, then possibly this is not so surprising.

It would not, therefore, be necessary for the other apostles to be married. (St. John I would have thought was too young anyway and he went on to live in Our Lady’s company so unlikely from that point-of-view also).

Furthermore, this tells us that in order for people to follow our Lord (as St. Paul said) as absolutely as one could, when called specifically, we must literally leave everything behind as if we hated those things, due to those things (and people) being far less necessary, even evil, when in comparison to following Him. Just as it tells us that those who understand married life being their lot, are to still put our Lord first, throughout, even before the spouse - the Abraham link coming in again - if/when certain decisions would mean going against our faith and that of the Church!

In Catholic life we have extremes and we have the tonal shades inbetween. St. Peter leaving his wife for the sake of the Kingdom could be such an extreme, unless of course, as a poster pointed out, the wife had already died. Suffering is an invitation to our Lord to walk into our lives. He might have been an example for us not to “look back”. Of course, we don’t know if his wife became a disciple later on, but I think it is one of the first two possibilties because otherwise I think Scripture would have spoken of his wife again. I think it is likely she died. Our Lord did speak about no man dividing man and woman when married so this variation makes the most sense from that angle too although we know our Lord was fully Divine and so had the authority to judge over such a decision.

On the subject of using ‘Roman Catholic’. There are many Churches with the title ‘Roman Catholic’ and although it is that ‘Catholic’ would suffice, while the word ‘Roman’ is used, I will continue to use it, when necessary (sometimes I will use the title ‘Catholic’). We could say the same for the title ‘Christian’ but while there are protestant varieties I will continue to use the title ‘Catholic’ or ‘Roman Catholic’ when necessary. Thanks.
 
This is such a misinformed statement. In so many ways.
Firstly, you ought to know that there are Roman Catholic priests who are married.
Are you referring to priests as per the Ordinariate?

All priests are indeed married to our Creator; true!

This thread is cryptic!
 
On the subject of using ‘Roman Catholic’. There are many Churches with the title ‘Roman Catholic’ and although it is that ‘Catholic’ would suffice, while the word ‘Roman’ is used,
And this is because they are…Roman Catholic. They are not Melkite Catholic. Nor Coptic. Nor Malankarese.

They are…Roman Catholic.
I will continue to use it
You will be showing your ignorance if you do, unless you are talking specifically about the Roman or Latin rite.

And you will also be elitist and exclusionary of the Ruthenian Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, etc etc etc.

It’s kind of like, if you said to an Asian person, “Since you’re Chinese, do you [fill in the blank]”…and this person says, “I’m not Chinese. I’m Thai”…

and you respond, “Well, I’m still going to refer to you as Chinese.”
 
And this is because they are…Roman Catholic. They are not Melkite Catholic. Nor Coptic. Nor Malankarese.

They are…Roman Catholic.

You will be showing your ignorance if you do, unless you are talking specifically about the Roman or Latin rite.

And you will also be elitist and exclusionary of the Ruthenian Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, etc etc etc.

It’s kind of like, if you said to an Asian person, “Since you’re Chinese, do you [fill in the blank]”…and this person says, “I’m not Chinese. I’m Thai”…

and you respond, “Well, I’m still going to refer to you as Chinese.”
If I say Roman Catholic I am saying Roman Catholic out of respect for the Chair of St. Peter and all that is bound and loosed in Heaven via the Roman Catholic Church. Just because all Catholics should appropriate the same inner respect for Rome does not mean they do. On the signs of all Catholic Churches, reads: Roman Catholic Church. So I am a Roman Catholic as I am a Catholic as I am a Christian!

And my discernment tells me when need or need not refer to the Roman aspect of the title.
 
My bad.

However, are you sure you want to profess that there are no married priests in the Roman Catholic church?
You are being cryptic again! 😃 There are no married priests in the Roman Catholic Church, minus the Ordinariate, but as you have pointed out there do appear to be married Catholic priests. But this article seems to suggest that it is not a typical situation even in the Maronite Church.

So what you said in response to a suggestion in an earlier post about priests being forced to be celibate as not being true, I think is correct, because it is a matter of the heart. They do not choose celibacy due to being controlled but out of love. IMO, you were right as this is the point that maybe sums it all up.
 
Nothing about ‘no sex if you are an elder’. The idea is an innovation, probably as an infection of Essene aestheticism or Greek philosophy: ‘the material world is bad’.
There’s an implication here that we have a normative celibate priesthood in the Latin Rite because “sex is bad” and “marriage is bad.” If both Jesus and Paul can advise Jews/Christians to be continent for the sake of the kingdom (if it’s something they can do without being overcome by temptation) without implying that marriage is bad, then the Catholic Church can, too.

But how are we to understand this recommended option of sacrificing marriage? You don’t sacrifice to God the worst of what you have. You do not take your lame and sickly lamb to the altar. You take a lamb without defect and offer that up to God. You do not sacrifice what is bad – you sacrifice what is good. There is no true sacrifice if you are not giving up something good. You are not rejecting the material world because it is evil, you are sacrificing the wonderful good of marriage for an even greater good. You are looking forward to the new heaven and the new earth, where people will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will live like the angels.

Furthermore, regarding Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus (which may also be understood to mean to select men who have not been married MORE than once, but I won’t get into that), this is neither a comment on Christology or faith or morals. Paul’s giving his pupils a discipline to follow. This is similar to Paul instructing women to cover their heads when praying. Or the Jerusalem council advising that all non-Jewish Christians keep the Noahide laws. Do you yourself believe these must be followed today? Or is a woman not covering her head or a Christian not following the Noahide laws also traditions of men which must be disregarded?

Certainly there are some instructions given by Paul and elsewhere which are not in regard to doctrine of faith or morals but are disciplinary measures (or Church law, if you will) which were deemed to be appropriate for the time and place, but not intended as unchangeable for all history.

So, all of this is to say that a celibate/continent priesthood isn’t a violation of scriptures. Still, if the Church accepted your reading of Titus and Timothy and wished to use Paul’s discipline for selecting priests and bishops, they could (so is my understanding), as they could regarding head coverings for women. But I certainly don’t think a married candidate for the priesthood or bishopric is an apostolic/scriptural mandate, nor is it a mandate that married candidates even be allowed.
 
There’s an implication here that we have a normative celibate priesthood in the Latin Rite because “sex is bad” and “marriage is bad.” If both Jesus and Paul can advise Jews/Christians to be continent for the sake of the kingdom (if it’s something they can do without being overcome by temptation) without implying that marriage is bad, then the Catholic Church can, too.

But how are we to understand this recommended option of sacrificing marriage? You don’t sacrifice to God the worst of what you have. You do not take your lame and sickly lamb to the altar. You take a lamb without defect and offer that up to God. You do not sacrifice what is bad – you sacrifice what is good. There is no true sacrifice if you are not giving up something good. You are not rejecting the material world because it is evil, you are sacrificing the wonderful good of marriage for an even greater good. You are looking forward to the new heaven and the new earth, where people will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will live like the angels.
Great to read.
Furthermore, regarding Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus (which may also be understood to mean to select men who have not been married MORE than once, but I won’t get into that), this is neither a comment on Christology or faith or morals. Paul’s giving his pupils a discipline to follow. This is similar to Paul instructing women to cover their heads when praying. Or the Jerusalem council advising that all non-Jewish Christians keep the Noahide laws. Do you yourself believe these must be followed today? Or is a woman not covering her head or a Christian not following the Noahide laws also traditions of men which must be disregarded?
Certainly there are some instructions given by Paul and elsewhere which are not in regard to doctrine of faith or morals but are disciplinary measures (or Church law, if you will) which were deemed to be appropriate for the time and place, but not intended as unchangeable for all history.
So, all of this is to say that a celibate/continent priesthood isn’t a violation of scriptures. Still, if the Church accepted your reading of Titus and Timothy and wished to use Paul’s discipline for selecting priests and bishops, they could (so is my understanding), as they could regarding head coverings for women. But I certainly don’t think a married candidate for the priesthood or bishopric is an apostolic/scriptural mandate, nor is it a mandate that married candidates even be allowed.
Not sure about this. If the truth is the truth then it will make sense throughout. Let’s take the example of St. Peter. While our Lord was on earth, HE was and IS the High Priest. After He has ascended then St. Peter is the Rock. With this in mind, the one who is to take the Chair of Papacy, is surely to imitate as closely as possible He who walked this earth.

Could you give a reference and quote for St. Paul to Timothy and Titus please to demonstrate you point? Just because St. Paul said things to do with discipline doesn’t follow that everything he said can be put down to this also. I know that many an exegist is fond of applying Scripture purely using the historical method etc…but if read and analyzed with ‘wisdom’ then we have to take into account that the Holy Spirit was the inspiration and therefore not subject to time. At present, without demonstration, the link is a little tenuous.
 
So, all of this is to say that a celibate/continent priesthood isn’t a violation of scriptures.
I don’t see that since the first Pope St. Peter was a married man. And he was chosen by Jesus.
 
Just as I think that any lurker would be mistaken to read your posts here, with a teeny, tiny portion of your posting history devoted to this topic, and conclude: “Tomyris has an absurd obsession with the sexual lives of the men in the early church”…

it would also be a mistake to think that the ECFs were “obsessed with sexual chastity at the time”.

With that said, I do want to make a general comment: I find it quite odd that the underlying theme here—although not explicitly stated–is: men simply cannot live without sex.

How peculiar!
Not so much any longer, but even priests used to have housekeepers who would cook and clean for them. I think most priests today can cook and clean for themselves, though. I know plenty of single men, non-priests, who cook wonderfully and clean better than I do. I can be lazy about it. If it weren’t for things like Slim Fast (I’m not overweight, either), I would starve to death myself! LOL
 
I don’t see that since the first Pope St. Peter was a married man. And he was chosen by Jesus.
I thought Christ waa celibate. Surely asking their priests to imitate Christ is not unscriptural.
12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriagefor the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”**
Are you saying that priests should forced to be married?
 
So. Are you saying Christ Iis saying His priests must be married, when He himself wasn’t? Wouldn’t that make Him a hypocrite?
I am saying that celibacy should be an option as we see from Holy Scripture. Jesus was celibate, but the man he chose to be first Pope was married. So it makes no sense to restrict married men from becoming priests, bishops or Pope. If someone wants to be celibate, that’s OK also.
 
Not so much any longer, but even priests used to have housekeepers who would cook and clean for them. I think most priests today can cook and clean for themselves, though. I know plenty of single men, non-priests, who cook wonderfully and clean better than I do. I can be lazy about it. If it weren’t for things like Slim Fast (I’m not overweight, either), I would starve to death myself! LOL
Those housekeepers were often the mother’s of the priest.
 
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