C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
We often hear it said that the United States was not founded upon Christian principles. Then what kind of principles were we founded on? Atheist principles? I’d like to know. 
- Status
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
The United States was not founded on Christian principles, but on republican Enlightenment principles. Most of the Founding Fathers were deists - they believed in God but rejected as superstitious mythology crucial Christian dogmas such as the Incarnation.
I personally think that John Adams was a Christian, but it is very clear that Jefferson and Madison were deists. Washington seems to have been a Christian once, but I have been convinced that he turned deist later in life as well. I don’t know about Hamilton and the rest.
I personally think that John Adams was a Christian, but it is very clear that Jefferson and Madison were deists. Washington seems to have been a Christian once, but I have been convinced that he turned deist later in life as well. I don’t know about Hamilton and the rest.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Fone Bone
Most of the Founding Fathers were deists - they believed in God but rejected as superstitious mythology crucial Christian dogmas such as the Incarnation.
O.K. So far no agnostics or atheists. Was Thomas Paine, author of Age of Reason, an Atheist or a Deist?
Most of the Founding Fathers were deists - they believed in God but rejected as superstitious mythology crucial Christian dogmas such as the Incarnation.
O.K. So far no agnostics or atheists. Was Thomas Paine, author of Age of Reason, an Atheist or a Deist?
L
Leela
Guest
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”
From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”
Additional quotes from John Adams:
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?”
“The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”
“…Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)
From Jefferson’s biography:
“…an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ…the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”
From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”
“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear…Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”
“Christianity…[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man…Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.”
James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)
Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise…During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
Benjamin Franklin
From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.”
From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“…Some books against Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”
Thomas Paine
From The Age of Reason, pp. 89:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of…Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”
From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”
From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? – rapine, cruelty, and murder.”
From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning…Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”
From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it – not to terrify but to extirpate.”
Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Leela
Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."
Ah, so Paine was not an atheist either.
So is that it? Were there no atheists among the Founding Fathers?
And are Deists supposed to be classified as allies of the Atheists? I don’t think so!
At the Constitutional Convention, 1787, James Madison recorded the following remarks made by Benjamin Franklin to the president of the Convention:
*"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Government by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
"I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.”
Mr. Sherman seconded the motion.
The motion was generally supported in principle, with several reservations, but it failed to carry when it was realized that the Convention had no funds to arrange for the carrying out of it.
*"
Again, from Ben Franklin, a letter to Thomas Paine upon Paine’s declared intention to publish Age of Reason.
*I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence, that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion, that, though your reasonings are subtle and may prevail with some readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general sentiments of mankind on that subject, and the consequence of printing this piece will be, a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits against the wind, spits in his own face.
But, were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother.
I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it. I intend this letter itself as a proof of my friendship, and therefore add no professions to it; but subscribe simply yours,
B. Franklin *
Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."
Ah, so Paine was not an atheist either.
So is that it? Were there no atheists among the Founding Fathers?
And are Deists supposed to be classified as allies of the Atheists? I don’t think so!
At the Constitutional Convention, 1787, James Madison recorded the following remarks made by Benjamin Franklin to the president of the Convention:
*"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Government by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
"I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.”
Mr. Sherman seconded the motion.
The motion was generally supported in principle, with several reservations, but it failed to carry when it was realized that the Convention had no funds to arrange for the carrying out of it.
*"
Again, from Ben Franklin, a letter to Thomas Paine upon Paine’s declared intention to publish Age of Reason.
*I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence, that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion, that, though your reasonings are subtle and may prevail with some readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general sentiments of mankind on that subject, and the consequence of printing this piece will be, a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits against the wind, spits in his own face.
But, were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother.
I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it. I intend this letter itself as a proof of my friendship, and therefore add no professions to it; but subscribe simply yours,
B. Franklin *
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
From Thomas Jefferson:
(Excerpts, letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, April 11, 1823)
Jefferson is talking about the French atheists.) *The argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of cosmogony, you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. They say, then, that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may forever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend. On the contrary, I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and infinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of
the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters, and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, the generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. We see too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in its course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and, were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. *
Will you ever see that quote posted at an atheist website? Or this one?
“I believe … that he who steadily observes those moral precepts in which all religions concur will never be questioned at the gates of heaven, as to dogmas in which they differ.”
Or this one?
“To the corruption of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself; I am a Christian in the only sense he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”
(Excerpts, letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, April 11, 1823)
Jefferson is talking about the French atheists.) *The argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of cosmogony, you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. They say, then, that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may forever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend. On the contrary, I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and infinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of
the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters, and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, the generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. We see too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in its course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and, were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. *
Will you ever see that quote posted at an atheist website? Or this one?
“I believe … that he who steadily observes those moral precepts in which all religions concur will never be questioned at the gates of heaven, as to dogmas in which they differ.”
Or this one?
“To the corruption of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself; I am a Christian in the only sense he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Jefferson’s last poem to his daughter.
*A Death Bed Advice from T.J. to M.R.
Life’s visions are vanished, its dreams are no more,
Dear friend of my bosom, why bathed in tears,
I go to my fathers, I welcome the shore,
Which crowns all my hopes or which buries my cares.
Then farewell my dear, my loved daughter adieu,
The last pang of life is parting from you.
Two seraphs await me long shrouded in death,
I will bear them your love on my last parting breath.
*
*A Death Bed Advice from T.J. to M.R.
Life’s visions are vanished, its dreams are no more,
Dear friend of my bosom, why bathed in tears,
I go to my fathers, I welcome the shore,
Which crowns all my hopes or which buries my cares.
Then farewell my dear, my loved daughter adieu,
The last pang of life is parting from you.
Two seraphs await me long shrouded in death,
I will bear them your love on my last parting breath.
*
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
And from John Adams!
Second President[1797-1801]
*Vice President under
George Washington
*Delegate to the First and Second Continental Congresses
*Negotiated treaty of peace to end the Revolutionary War
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” --October 11, 1798
“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
Second President[1797-1801]
*Vice President under
George Washington
*Delegate to the First and Second Continental Congresses
*Negotiated treaty of peace to end the Revolutionary War
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” --October 11, 1798
“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
From George Washington
*“It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of of popular government. The rule extends with more or less force to every specie of free government. Who that is sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric? … Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that Morality can be maintained with Religion.”
“Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to; and well it has been said, that if there had been no God, mankind would have been obliged to imagine one.”*
Will you see either of those quotes at an atheist website?
*“It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of of popular government. The rule extends with more or less force to every specie of free government. Who that is sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric? … Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that Morality can be maintained with Religion.”
“Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to; and well it has been said, that if there had been no God, mankind would have been obliged to imagine one.”*
Will you see either of those quotes at an atheist website?
L
Leela
Guest
Atheists have no quarrell with Deists. They especially can sympathize with those taking such a view who did not have the advantage of explaining the appearance of design through Darwin’s theory.
Why do you try so hard to claim Deists for your “team”? I don’t see how you have anything in common with them that you don’t have with atheists. Whether they believe in a god or not, it is certainly not your god. It is what they often refer to as Nature or some undescribable “higher power.”
Best,
Leela
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Leela
Why do you try so hard to claim Deists for your “team”? I don’t see how you have anything in common with them that you don’t have with atheists. Whether they believe in a god or not, it is certainly not your god. It is what they often refer to as Nature or some undescribable “higher power.”
Because they are often claimed for the atheist team. You will not find an atheist website that does not use the founding Fathers to hammer Christianity. The same websites conveniently ignore the fact that the Founding Fathers unanimously hammer atheism.
As to which side the Deists were closer to, I think the quotes cited above make that abundantly clear. Moreover, do you know the etymology of the word Deist? I think you do, and you know it means belief in the existence of God, even if not the Christian God.
Why do you try so hard to claim Deists for your “team”? I don’t see how you have anything in common with them that you don’t have with atheists. Whether they believe in a god or not, it is certainly not your god. It is what they often refer to as Nature or some undescribable “higher power.”
Because they are often claimed for the atheist team. You will not find an atheist website that does not use the founding Fathers to hammer Christianity. The same websites conveniently ignore the fact that the Founding Fathers unanimously hammer atheism.
As to which side the Deists were closer to, I think the quotes cited above make that abundantly clear. Moreover, do you know the etymology of the word Deist? I think you do, and you know it means belief in the existence of God, even if not the Christian God.
C
cerad
Guest
I’m wondering a bit about the reasoning behind this thread. Charles Darwin was a christianist when he developed his theory of evolution. So does that mean evolution was founded on christian principles?
B
buffalo
Guest
Look for the quotes that explicitly state that the country was founded on Christian principles.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
I’m wondering a bit about the reasoning behind this thread. Charles Darwin was a christianist when he developed his theory of evolution. So does that mean evolution was founded on christian principles?
Not at all. But evolution is hardly in the same league with social contracts and laws required for people to get along with each other. For that you need good will, the respect of persons, the consciousness of right and wrong, and the belief demonstrated in the gospels that we are all equal in the eyes of God, and therefore all equal in the eyes of the State. In the absence of those principles, much advanced by Christianity, we may turn out to have what John Adams feared in one of the above quotes … hell on earth.
As De Tocqueville said in 1832 in his book Democracy in America:
“Christianity, which has declared that all are equal in the sight of God, will not refuse to acknowledge that all citizens are equal in the eye of the law . . . Religion . . . is the companion of liberty in all its battles and all its conflicts; the cradle of its infancy and the divine source of its claims.”
Not at all. But evolution is hardly in the same league with social contracts and laws required for people to get along with each other. For that you need good will, the respect of persons, the consciousness of right and wrong, and the belief demonstrated in the gospels that we are all equal in the eyes of God, and therefore all equal in the eyes of the State. In the absence of those principles, much advanced by Christianity, we may turn out to have what John Adams feared in one of the above quotes … hell on earth.
As De Tocqueville said in 1832 in his book Democracy in America:
“Christianity, which has declared that all are equal in the sight of God, will not refuse to acknowledge that all citizens are equal in the eye of the law . . . Religion . . . is the companion of liberty in all its battles and all its conflicts; the cradle of its infancy and the divine source of its claims.”
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Abraham Lincoln:
“I know there is a God, and that He hates injustice and slavery. I see the storm coming, and I know His hand is in it. If He has a place and work for me, and I think He has, I am ready. I am nothing, but truth is everything. I know I am right, for Christ teaches it, and Christ is God.”
Letter to Newton Bateman before the 1860 election.
“I know there is a God, and that He hates injustice and slavery. I see the storm coming, and I know His hand is in it. If He has a place and work for me, and I think He has, I am ready. I am nothing, but truth is everything. I know I am right, for Christ teaches it, and Christ is God.”
Letter to Newton Bateman before the 1860 election.
T
tomarin
Guest
Not a founding father, though.
The Victorian era was more religious than the Georgian, if I’m not mistaken.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Not a founding father, though.
Technically you are right. Yet he helped to restore the floundering Republic and may be considered a founder of sorts. O.K., no more quotes from Lincoln. But if Lincoln could say this in 1860, wouldn’t it have applied as well in 1776, that the founders were guided by Christian principles even if some of them didn’t believe in the divinity of Christ?
Technically you are right. Yet he helped to restore the floundering Republic and may be considered a founder of sorts. O.K., no more quotes from Lincoln. But if Lincoln could say this in 1860, wouldn’t it have applied as well in 1776, that the founders were guided by Christian principles even if some of them didn’t believe in the divinity of Christ?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
(name removed by moderator)
Thank you for the names and statistics!
Charlie
Thank you for the names and statistics!
Charlie
T
tomarin
Guest
No, because Lincoln’s religious beliefs are irrelevant to whether the Founders were religious, or what their religious beliefs were. He came many years later.
I’m not an expert on this issue but I think the Founders had different religious beliefs, many being deists, which is to say some kind of “spiritual but not religious” type of philosophy. I believe a few were outright atheists, but many more were conventional Christians.
The assumption here seems to be that if one can prove that the majority of the Founders were Christians, that proves that the USA is a Christian country. I’m not sure that’s a valid argument. Why couldn’t the US be a Christian country, for example, despite the religious beliefs of the political elite who led the Revolution?
I think it’s perfectly valid to argue that historically the US has been a Christian country (albeit without an official religion) in the sense that the majority of Americans have been Christians, and furthermore that their expectations have been that their elected officials would pursue policies that if they were not guided by Christian principles, did not contradict them.
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