WH:No Constitutional Rights Issue in Forcing Catholics to Act Against Their Faith

[NYCATHOLICGIRL]

"The government has the moral obligation to mandate that people have insurance, so as not to burden the rest of society, when they end up getting sick.

I live in Massachusetts under Romney Care, and it’s mandated, as Obama care will be.

Do I like it? No, I’d rather have universal health-care where I won’t have to worry that if my wife or myself become sick, we don’t have to spend ourselves into destitution before we get governent help.

Jim"

The government does NOT have the moral obligation to mandate that we have insurance. My husband & I choose not to have health insurance.
We pay out of pocket when we need to see a doctor and we don’t go to regular doctors we go to holistic doctors which health insurance does not cover. The problem is that some people have come to expect the government to be the source of everything. In the past charities especially catholic charities and individuals who weren’t taxed to death helped those in need. The consitiution and the Bill of Rights gave the Feds limited powers, this has been breached and this is why we have people whining about the freebies that they want me and you to pay for. Since when has the government become our Church?:

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The Bishops say that health-care is a basic right for every human being. By your logic, ER’s could just let people die when they show up without health insurance.

Yes, this is what the bishops say. What is meant by this is a matter of some dispute.

Does it mean, simply, that ERs may not turn people away who are uninsured then no new legislation is needed, that is already prohibited.

On the other hand, if what they mean by this is that hospitals have a right to compensation from the public purse, then that is certainly a novel interpretation. We are no longer discussing the poor’s right to health care but the care giver’s right to distribute the cost.

Do care givers have a “human right” to distribute costs?

Did the Good Samaritan have a “human right” to rob others on the road to help pay for the care he gave?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you don’t have health insurance and end up with cancer or some other illness that requires long expesive care, what will you do?

If you show up in an ER, you end up being treated, and they’ll put a lean on your home and assets. If you don’t have any, they’ll chage the state for the cost of your care, which we all end up paying for.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, the Bishops saying heath care is a right, arn’t just talking about people showing up at an ER getting care. They’re also talking about kids getting vacinated and treated for common ailments kids get.

Jim

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, the Bishops saying heath care is a right, arn’t just talking about people showing up at an ER getting care. They’re also talking about kids getting vacinated and treated for common ailments kids get.

Again, if this were the actual goal, it would be solved by asking doctors to provide vaccinations or treat for common ailments.

If you don’t have health insurance and end up with cancer or some other illness that requires long expesive care, what will you do?

If you show up in an ER, you end up being treated, and they’ll put a lean on your home and assets. If you don’t have any, they’ll chage the state for the cost of your care, which we all end up paying for.

So you are now claiming that not only do people have a human right to health care, they have a human right to *free *health care, regardless of their ability to pay.

 

[NYCATHOLICGIRL]

If you don’t have health insurance and end up with cancer or some other illness that requires long expesive care, what will you do?

If you show up in an ER, you end up being treated, and they’ll put a lean on your home and assets. If you don’t have any, they’ll chage the state for the cost of your care, which we all end up paying for.

Jim

I’m putting all taxpayers on notice, if I end up with cancer I promise that I will not take the poison chemo that ends up killing you I will just let the cancer run its course or I will pay my holistic doctor to treat me. I promise that I will NEVER be a burden on society, I will NOT ask anyone to pay for my bills. I am a responsible person who does not take anything from the government.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Again, if this were the actual goal, it would be solved by asking doctors to provide vaccinations or treat for common ailments.

Of course not. No one is asking for doctors to work for free. The unborn have a right to life but we don’t ask hospitals and doctors to deliver babies for free.

So you are now claiming that not only do people have a human right to health care, they have a human right to *free *health care, regardless of their ability to pay.

People have a right to be treated for health, but it isn’t free. Either the person pays themself or society pays. We mandate that children be vactinated for small pox, for their good and for the good of society. But there is still a cost for the vacine and the doctor who administers the vaccination.

The fact is, there are many people who can not afford health insurance. It would be better to have a universal single payer system than the “for-profit,” system we have, but conservatives reject any health-care paid for by the government.

Except of course until they need health care for themselves or their loved ones and discover that they don’t have health insurance.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m putting all taxpayers on notice, if I end up with cancer I promise that I will not take the poison chemo that ends up killing you I will just let the cancer run its course or I will pay my holistic doctor to treat me. I promise that I will NEVER be a burden on society, I will NOT ask anyone to pay for my bills. I am a responsible person who does not take anything from the government.

Yeah right. You’d sing a different tune if you found out you had a treatable form of cancer, but if left untreated, will kill you.

 

[NYCATHOLICGIRL]

Yeah right. You’d sing a different tune if you found out you had a treatable form of cancer, but if left untreated, will kill you.

What form of cancer would that be? BTW are you judging my heart, or are you calling me a liar?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Of course not. No one is asking for doctors to work for free. The unborn have a right to life but we don’t ask hospitals and doctors to deliver babies for free.

If health care is a human right then that is exactly what you are demanding!

People have a right to be treated for health, but it isn’t free. Either the person pays themself or society pays.

This is a false dichotomy. There are, in fact, many ways and you have simply given two here.

We mandate that children be vactinated for small pox, for their good and for the good of society. But there is still a cost for the vacine and the doctor who administers the vaccination.

If people have a right to health care then it is wrong to charge for vaccines or the administration of vaccines.

The fact is, there are many people who can not afford health insurance. It would be better to have a universal single payer system than the “for-profit,” system we have, but conservatives reject any health-care paid for by the government. Except of course until they need health care for themselves or their loved ones and discover that they don’t have health insurance.

I know you think you have the solution. But you don’t even understand the problem.

 

[InLight247]

I know many Catholics believe in the universal health care. Indeed, that is ideal, but we cannot support a universal health care like Obamacare which contains so many immoral laws in it.

Yes, everyone ought to have health care, but not at the cost of killing the unborn and the aged. Obamacare supports abortion, it also put limits on senior citizens above age 65. Aged people have to apply for government approval before receiving healthcare. In other words, this plan sacrifices the most vulnerable. Kill babies and kill grandma and grandpa. It is totally immoral and evil.

People who are against Obamacare are not against universal health care, they are against this immoral model. We are not saying not to have coverage for everyone, we are saying not to have such an evil plan.

Plus, insurance should not be imposed on individual. The very poor already have the safety net. I personally know two people both have no income, but they never have any problem to receive any health care, not emergency care, but regular health care and hospitalization. They did not have to pay anything. This is under the current system. The very poor already have the safety net.

The Obamacare will pay for these people who are already under safety net. As for other people who do not fall under such poverty line, they have to pay the insurance out of their own pocket. It is not free for them. That is totally unfair. One lady attends my church is so furious about this. She is a single Mom, young and healthy. She does not buy health insurance right now and all is fine for her. She is very furious that she will be forced to pay out of her own pocket to buy health insurance under Obamacare.

 

[NYCATHOLICGIRL]

"People who are against Obamacare are not against universal health care, they are against this immoral model. We are not saying not to have coverage for everyone, we are saying not to have such an evil plan. "

Don’t speak for me, I am against universal healthcare. I know MANY people who are against Obamacare and any type of universal healthcare.

It is NOT the governments place to be involved in healthcare…period. The constitution does not give it those powers.

 

[InLight247]

NYCATHOLICGIRL: I am not speaking for you, I am speaking for many people I know who have the same opinion. Plus, you did not read what I said. I said it should not be imposed on individual.

Maybe I should make it clearer. If government wants to pay for those extremely poor under the name of “universal healthcare”, that is fine, the current system is already doing that part. You can call this part universal healthcare to the poorest. The regulation for insurance company not to refuse any pre-exist condition is also necessary. This is universal to everyone so no one would be rejected by the insurance company. Everyone who wants to buy health insurance will be able to get it. Other than that, to buy or not to buy health care should be each individual’s choice. I hope this is a little clearer.

 

[NYCATHOLICGIRL]

NYCATHOLICGIRL: I am not speaking for you, I am speaking for many people I know who have the same opinion. Plus, you did not read what I said. I said it should not be imposed on individual.

Maybe I should make it clearer. If government wants to pay for those extremely poor under the name of “universal healthcare”, that is fine, the current system is already doing that part. You can call this part universal healthcare to the poorest. The regulation for insurance company not to refuse any pre-exist condition is also necessary. This is universal to everyone so no one would be rejected by the insurance company. Everyone who wants to buy health insurance will be able to get it. Other than that, to buy or not to buy health care should be each individual’s choice. I hope this is a little clearer.

Universal healthcare is healthcare that is designed for ALL members of a society. I was referring exactly to this. If we have universal healthcare then we will have no choice but to buy it.

 

[InLight247]

Universal healthcare is healthcare that is designed for ALL members of a society. I was referring exactly to this. If we have universal healthcare then we will have no choice but to buy it.

Then I guess my definition is different. My definition of “universal” is everyone should have the right to get health care. Entitled does not mean required. I believe the health insurance should be “available” to everyone, i.e. no one should be denied it, whether due to pre-existed cases, or extreme poverty. The universal I mean is the availability, but not being forced to buy. If universal healthcare means we have no choice but buy it, then I would not use the word "universal’ for my ideal belief.

 

[LisaA]

The hospital bills the state.

Actually, it was written by the insurance industry, the same people who put out the false information to shoot down Hillary’s single payer universal health care, which I’m sure you’d oppose as well, so we’d end up with nothing.

I believe it said many showed up for dental. It wouldn’t be most because dental was a minor part of the overall opperation.

I happen to know people right now, who are on the verge of becoming homeless, because their father developed early alzhiemers and has no insurance. Medicaid will kick in after his assests are spent down to $2000, then they’ll put a lean on the house, which his mother and adult children live in. One he dies, they’ll have to find a place to live, because of the lean on the property, which is in his name.

Obama had nothing to do with my situation.

The government has the moral obligation to mandate that people have insurance, so as not to burden the rest of society, when they end up getting sick.

I live in Massachusetts under Romney Care, and it’s mandated, as Obama care will be.

Do I like it? No, I’d rather have universal health-care where I won’t have to worry that if my wife or myself become sick, we don’t have to spend ourselves into destitution before we get governent help.

Jim

1. Hospital bills the state? Maybe in your state but not in the majority of them. Our hospitals simply “eat” the uncompensated care. If not for donations our hospital would be broke.
2. Universal payer as the solution? Are you kidding? Government bureaucrats in charge of yours and my healthcare? You need to spend some time at the DMV if you want to see how that would work out.
3. The article on the tent hospital said the majority came for dental care. Please re-read it
4. You apparently think your friends have a right to their father’s home. Really? Is housing another right? Who is going to pay for all this?
5. I maintain Obama is the reason our country is suffering the most prolonged downturn in history. He has blocked so many potential jobs, the latest being Keystone, that our unemployment will never decrease until he is out of office. Trillions of tax dollars went to his political friends and donors. Solyndra anyone? Beacon Light? There are more. The man is a drag on the economy.
6. You mistake health INSURANCE for healthcare. You can have a gold plated policy but if you can’t find a doctor or a nurse or a hospital because Obama’s policies have driven them out of business good luck. Insurance guaranties NOTHING but that a third party will pay some portion of your bill. An insurance company will not heal you.
7. I thought you said RomneyCare WAS universal insurance. How’s that workin out for you?

Lisa

 

[Tbrightson]

The Bishops say that health-care is a basic right for every human being.

By your logic, ER’s could just let people die when they show up without health insurance.

Jim

The Bishops are not in charge of writing the Constitution. When I see it in the Constitution, I will recognize the “right”

And when the “right” is established, fine, the person has the “right” to obtain healthcare.
but that does not mean someone else is to be forced to provide it for free, wether it
be the doctor or the taxpayer.

I have the “right” to free speech, but no one is obligated to buy me a megaphone.

I have the “right” to firearms, but no one is obligated to buy me a weapon.

I have the “right” to life, but no one is obligated to buy me food (as an adult)

I have a “right” to persue happiness, but no one is obligated to provide me happiness

I have a “right” to worship my God, but no one is obligated to buy me a church

I have a “right” to assembly, but no one is obligated to provide me the meeting place

Dont confuse “rights” with “entitlement”

My solution would be unshackle the current health care system; let the market place figure it out. But also have a govt run plan whose members can CHOOSE to partipate with
no penalty for NOT doing so, and is totally funded by the contributions from the members.

 

[Tigg]

The Bishops say that health-care is a basic right for every human being.

By your logic, ER’s could just let people die when they show up without health insurance.

Jim

If you read earlier social encyclicals, you will see that the new “social justice” is somewhat distorted from papal documents to say the least. This is what happens when we try to inordinately mix politics with moral truth.

Despite what the USCCB apparently maintains, there is no right to national health care in authentic Catholic doctrine:
douglawrence.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/despite-what-the-usccb-apparently-maintains-there-is-no-right-to-national-health-care-in-authentic-catholic-doctrine

“The teaching of the Universal Church has never been to suggest a government socialization of medical services. Rather, the Church has asserted the rights of every individual to have access to those things most necessary for sustaining and caring for human life, while at the same time insisting on the personal responsibility of each individual to care properly for his or her own health.”

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9101

 

[LisaA]

If you read earlier social encyclicals, you will see that the new “social justice” is somewhat distorted from papal documents to say the least. This is what happens when we try to inordinately mix politics with moral truth.

Despite what the USCCB apparently maintains, there is no right to national health care in authentic Catholic doctrine:
douglawrence.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/despite-what-the-usccb-apparently-maintains-there-is-no-right-to-national-health-care-in-authentic-catholic-doctrine

“The teaching of the Universal Church has never been to suggest a government socialization of medical services. Rather, the Church has asserted the rights of every individual to have access to those things most necessary for sustaining and caring for human life, while at the same time insisting on the personal responsibility of each individual to care properly for his or her own health.”

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9101

Reason actually prevails in authentic Catholic teaching but so often it’s co-opted by those who pick and choose whom or what teaching to follow.

The best way to increase access to care is to reduce the roadblocks to providing care that serve to restrict this access. Government interference has created far more problems with both access and cost than it has solved. Not allowing individuals or groups to buy health insurance that works for them means we all pay for care we neither want nor need (note the contraception mandate as a manisfestation of this). Not allowing health insurance to be sold on a national basis as is auto and fire insurance means that large insurers can lock up a state and without competition can both increase cost and limit benefits. Tort liability reform is another cost reducer and also attracts physicians and health care providers to those states where malpractice premiums aren’t through the roof. Add to that giving medical volunteers protection would encourage more of them to get involved in volunteering.

There are many ways to actually address the problems in our medical system but because of certain interest groups (abortion lobby, trial lawyers, big pharma, insurance companies) we have been unable to solve these problems. The last thing needed is MORE government involvement and it’s great to hear that our faith does not support this plan.

Ditto with asking people to bear responsibility for their healthcare costs. It amazes me how people will pay $5 for a cup of fancy coffee but scream if they have to pay a deductible to see a doctor or if their co-pay goes up a few bucks. We do not value things that come without cost, whether it’s medical care or God’s grace.

Lisa

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Bishops are not in charge of writing the Constitution. When I see it in the Constitution, I will recognize it as a right.

You have a right to “LIFE,” liberty and the pursuit of happiness and these rights are endowed by God.

Life requires basic needs, clean air, clean water, food and health care when you become sick or injured, otherwise you can die.

It’s not only a basic prinicible of the US Constitution its the mandate of Christianity, which this forum seeks to uphold.

Jim