WH:No Constitutional Rights Issue in Forcing Catholics to Act Against Their Faith

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You have a right to “LIFE,” liberty and the pursuit of happiness and these rights are endowed by God.

Life requires basic needs, clean air, clean water, food and health care when you become sick or injured, otherwise you can die.

It’s not only a basic prinicible of the US Constitution its the mandate of Christianity, which this forum seeks to uphold.

Jim
Your definition of “right to life” is not the same as is understood by the Constitution or even various pro-life organizations. “Right to life” means that you have the right not to be killed. It does not mean you have the right to the above list which I agree are necessities of a decent life but that doesn’t mean the same thing as the protection provided under the Constitution.

The list above does not represent rights, it represents needs. There is a difference. And it’s a slippery slope to start claiming the Constitution gives us the right to food, medical care, housing etc. From each according to his ability and to each according to his need…sound familiar?

Lisa
 
You have a right to “LIFE,” liberty and the pursuit of happiness and these rights are endowed by God.

Life requires basic needs, clean air, clean water, food and health care when you become sick or injured, otherwise you can die.

It’s not only a basic prinicible of the US Constitution its the mandate of Christianity, which this forum seeks to uphold.

Jim
Jim, I see your point. Probably every Catholic who voted Obama last time holds the same view as yours. But after knowing abortion is a major part of Obamacare, after all what has happened lately, would you still support such a plan? Or at least can you step back and re-evaluate? If there must be a healthcare plan for all, do you rather to have this evil one, or can you hope for a different edition?
 
Jim, I see your point. Probably every Catholic who voted Obama last time holds the same view as yours. But after knowing abortion is a major part of Obamacare, after all what has happened lately, would you still support such a plan? Or at least can you step back and re-evaluate? If there must be a healthcare plan for all, do you rather to have this evil one, or can you hope for a different edition?
Abortion isn’t paid for with federal funds in the health care plan, but unfortunately is mandated for insurance companies to cover it.

Just as our friends from England who have single payer universal healt care where tax dollars pay for abortions directly, they hae no choice about it.

Even the Bishops have stated that in the proposed health care plan, Catholics are not culpable because abortions are covered.

Yeah, I don’t like it, but then, I have Romney Care which has insurance companies paying for abortions and the dioceses of the state, puchase the same insurance as I do, so it’s not much else we can do about it.

Jim
 
You have a right to “LIFE,” liberty and the pursuit of happiness and these rights are endowed by God.

Life requires basic needs, clean air, clean water, food and health care when you become sick or injured, otherwise you can die.

It’s not only a basic prinicible of the US Constitution its the mandate of Christianity, which this forum seeks to uphold.

Jim
Again I repeat:

I have the “right” to life, but no one is obligated to buy me food (as an adult)

The Constitutional right to life means you cant be killed by the State without due process.

Again NO ONE is obligated to provide you with sustanence. That would be an entitlement, not a right.

Jesus never called on Caeser to feed the hungry. He asked us to do it out of love, not govt dictate.
 
Abortion isn’t paid for with federal funds in the health care plan, but unfortunately is mandated for insurance companies to cover it.

Just as our friends from England who have single payer universal healt care where tax dollars pay for abortions directly, they have no choice about it.
This is, in fact, not the same as our friends in England. The bishops do have a choice.

They have the choice to disobey the law.

And they have elected to exercise that choice.
 
Personally I would love to see us as a nation continue to have the political discussion about how to provide health care to those who cannot afford it.

But I’m afraid that may become a moot point.

I watch the news from Greece. There are riots, because the government is cutting thousands of jobs. It is cutting the minimum wage. It is cutting services. And why? It does it to satisfy the European Monetary Fund, which will not lend it money unless it takes such measures. And then when it is able to borrow from the EMF, the borrowed money will not go to the Greek people. It must go to refinance the current debt, in order to stave off bankruptcy.

That’s where we are headed. We argue about health care benefits, but I fear that the next president, of whichever party, may find himself presiding over riots in the streets, when our debt can no longer be rolled over and austerity measures must be imposed.

Sorry, that’s off topic. But street riots can be an excuse for tyranny. And Obama has already threatened the Catholic Church with that.
 
Personally I would love to see us as a nation continue to have the political discussion about how to provide health care to those who cannot afford it.
Why “as a nation” and not “as a Church”?
 
Why “as a nation” and not “as a Church”?
As a Church is fine. The Church is the Body of Christ, and we are all members of His body. We are obligated to care for our neighbor, whether the nation is in the midst of prosperity or depression. If it’s in the midst of depression, then the federal government won’t be of much help.
 
Personally I would love to see us as a nation continue to have the political discussion about how to provide health care to those who cannot afford it.

But I’m afraid that may become a moot point.

That’s where we are headed. We argue about health care benefits, but I fear that the next president, of whichever party, may find himself presiding over riots in the streets, when our debt can no longer be rolled over and austerity measures must be imposed.

Sorry, that’s off topic. But street riots can be an excuse for tyranny. And Obama has already threatened the Catholic Church with that.
The real issues that Obamacare should have addressed are increased access and reduced costs. The Republicans to their credit put forth numerous ideas and proposals for both objectives but were shot down. In fact Howard Dean even admitted that the reason some of these proposals were not considered was “Democrats know better than to fight with the trial lawyers.”

Here are some of the ideas that would/could work if implemented:

Change our system to a patient oriented, market driven system where the patient is involved in his/her healthcare decisions. Most patients don’t have a clue what something costs because of third party payers…both insurance companies and government healthcare. They have no incentive to shop around, look for better prices or shift their families to a particular clinic/doctor/hospital that provides the best quality care for the best price.

Try a different payment model. Our clinic has been involved in two protocols that tried different payment structures than fee for service which tends to encourage maximizing use. We did both a global contract for specific DRGs (diagnoses) for Medicare patients and another capitation contract for a large insurance company where we promised to provide all the care their patients needed for a specific rate per patient (total population). Both methods controlled costs and because the doctors worked in a collaberative basis, patient outcomes were outstanding.

Another area is tort reform and believe me, the trial lawyers are right there with abortion lobby in protecting their turf. Instituting “loser pays” would be a huge benefit to our system as one of the major costs is frivolous lawsuits where the damages are nebulous at best but attorneys hope to get a small settlement as a nuisance that is not worth a trial. No one wants to see someone truly damaged by malpractice not get justice. That is not the problem. The problem is lawsuit roulette. It’s too easy to sue in this country.

Something I thought was rather novel but never proposed was providing malpractice coverage for doctors who volunteer their services. Just an example, one of our clinic’s docs retired and wanted to do part time volunteer work. His malpractice premium would be over $10000 a year for part time office consulting (not surgery or obgyn). Needless to say he volunteers in third world countries where he won’t be sued. He’d be happy to help his neighbors but can’t take the risk.

As to the people who have pre-existing conditions, this would be a good place for the government to help with larger risk pools and underwriting support to allow them to obtain insurance for a reasonable cost. Again were insurance sold across state lines people would be able to find a suitable plan but most of us are captive to one or two payers.

Encouragement and support for the many religious based hospitals and clinics, instead of making their job more difficult by such things as these mandates.

Reducing cost and increasing access is possible. But with the various interest groups in control, it’s become a turf war and the patients are the ones who suffer. Obamacare was the worst of all worlds and we’re just starting to see how bad it is.

Lisa
 
As a Church is fine. The Church is the Body of Christ, and we are all members of His body. We are obligated to care for our neighbor, whether the nation is in the midst of prosperity or depression. If it’s in the midst of depression, then the federal government won’t be of much help.
It may be, however, that running all this wealth through the government is the cause of the lack of prosperity. If that is the case then correcting that would have two effects, first it would reduce the number in need of support, and it would increase the funds available for support for those remaining.
 
It may be, however, that running all this wealth through the government is the cause of the lack of prosperity. If that is the case then correcting that would have two effects, first it would reduce the number in need of support, and it would increase the funds available for support for those remaining.
Certainly one cause of lack of national prosperity is the government sucking up a great deal of the wealth and then some. Each day the government spends 5 billion dollars more than it takes in. It’s unsustainable. We are headed the way of Greece. No amount of government programs will help anyone if we can’t routinely refinance the debt. And the Fed won’t be able to hold interest rates down indefinitely.

As to the original question, of course there are constitutional rights at issue in the HHS mandate. Catholics will be allowed to practice their religion only at the price of paying a fine for doing so.
 
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