Whaddya think???

[rr1213]

Oh come on Im sure your not a grouch Remember NO ONE is worthy of heaven. If you truly have faith and trust in Christ—dont worry the Holy Spirit is in you and He will convict of your crankiness and you will change. I call it sanctification. It doesnt happen over night–just ask my husband. Sanctification takes a lifetime.

Well, I’m sure that MY wife would say that I’m perfectly fine…NOT! In actuality, I’ve been called a “curmudgeon” on a fairly regular basis…

 

[Damascus]

None of us are worthy of heaven apart from God’s grace and mercy. If your faith is alive (not dead), it will show fruit. Probably you should not be a grouch, rude and offensive, but I think that is a different issue as to whether you are showing fruit. Think of the parable that Jesus told about the father instructing his two sons to do some work. One cheerfully said “yes sir”, but then went off and did nothing. The other griped and complained but, eventually, went and did his fathers will. Jesus commended the second son. Are there saints in heaven who were cranky old men and women? I suspect so…

Yes, and after they got out of Purgatory to be cleansed of their cantakerous ways they were unrepentant of I am sure they finally got to home base.
Whew I bet they said. That was close!

 

[rr1213]

Sorry, I never heard this one before. God likes to play games with salvation?

Did I misunderstand this? Maybe its the eggnog kicking in?

No, God does not play games with our salvation. I put the word in quotes, but probably shouldn’t have used it. What I mean is that we all agree that none of us is good enough to earn salvation on our own merits, right? So, if nothing unclean ever enters heaven, we have problems…big ones. But praise be to God that Jesus has died for our sins and, by God’s mercy, God considers us to be cleaned by Jesus’ blood when we are still sinners. We still sin, but we are nonetheless deemed to be sinless because of God’s grace, imparted to us through faith …and which then leads us to perform good works.

 

[Damascus]

No, God does not play games with our salvation. I put the word in quotes, but probably shouldn’t have used it. What I mean is that we all agree that none of us is good enough to earn salvation on our own merits, right? So, if nothing unclean ever enters heaven, we have problems…big ones. But praise be to God that Jesus has died for our sins and, by God’s mercy, God considers us to be cleaned by Jesus’ blood when we are still sinners. We still sin, but we are nonetheless deemed to be sinless because of God’s grace, imparted to us through faith …and which then leads us to perform good works.

Okay!

Whew. Again, if it does not lead us to preform good works, and lets say we die in a state of adultery? But We love and believe in God blah blah, and do the whole golden rule stuff except for that ----then what?

Is it Hellfire?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Use of the plural here is confusing… How can we have rewards in heaven?
Like some in heaven get a better spot?

The reward I thought was heaven… Hmmmmmm

Yes heaven is the reward, but God says we get other rewards in heaven. We dont know what they are until we get them. Isnt God GREAT!!! I have to go to a spa party so I cant look up any verses right now. Maybe tom.

 

[Damascus]

Yes heaven is the reward, but God says we get other rewards in heaven. We dont know what they are until we get them. Isnt God GREAT!!! I have to go to a spa party so I cant look up any verses right now. Maybe tom.

Beware of vanity All for Him. I think its a sin, not sure.

Just kidding! Have a good time!

But I am expecting Biblical backup for this assertation.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What if you … God forbid! Perish the thought, DIE before that happens!

We have already been justified so we will go to heaven. I believe the CC defines justification and sanctification differently then we do. Besides, God takes us when He is ready so I guess if He feels He is done sanctifying us then WHO AM I TO ARGUE.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Beware of vanity All for Him. I think its a sin, not sure.

Just kidding! Have a good time!

But I am expecting Biblical backup for this assertation.

LOL Yes and God help me because I do live in NJ.

Maybe someone will beat me to it(bible verses)

Ok gotta go

 

[Damascus]

We have already been justified so we will go to heaven. I believe the CC defines justification and sanctification differently then we do. Besides, God takes us when He is ready so I guess if He feels He is done sanctifying us then WHO AM I TO ARGUE.

Ohh no. So if I am Protestant and I cheat like mad, but do everything else right, I am heaven bound, but maybe I get a back row seat since we dont know all the extras that some might get?

And God takes me ---- hmmm… What about in suicide? Is it me taking me, or God taking me then? Hmmmmm

Its sounding pretty tempting to go Protestant if I can get away with all this!

Not to mention the fact no one is going to make me fast, or give me a lot of other restrictions that are sorta inconvienient really lets face it.

I have been beating myself up for too long worrying about hell like I have.

 

[runandsew]

I like to think of Paul and James writings on faith to be “bookends” on the part faith play in salvation.

Paul is talking about faith apart from “works of the law”, circumcision, dietary laws and such. He is responding to the Judiazors who said that you had to be circumcised. Paul is arguing against "false religiosity” While James is coming from the other end of the spectrum, saying that the faith that we have needs to be infused with works of mercy or it is dead. If we want to see how our faith is supposed to be lived, you need to read what Jesus said in the Gospels, he explains it very clear.
Both James and Paul are talking about the same kind of Justification, but they are talking about two different types of works, you can see this since they both quote from the same Old Testament verse about Abraham.
Unfortunately Martin Luther misread what Paul was trying to say and came up with the Saved by faith alone theology that is so prevalent in Protestant churches today.

The quote they use from Genesis is from Chapter 15
Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an act of righteousness.

Paul is saying that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised (in chapter 17.)
Paul is not saying that Chapter 15 is where Abraham came to faith and was saved, because Abraham came to faith back in Chapter 12, where he believed and obeyed.

 

[rr1213]

I think that the old debate over faith/works ultimately does not matter. Yes, fanatical Protestants will deny that Catholics are true Christians because Catholics believe that works are necessary to salvation. Fanatical Catholics will likewise claim that Protestants are not true Christians because they do not hold to Catholic teachings on this subject. Yet, none of these folks grasp that a Christian… a true disciple of Christ who loves the Lord, his God, with all of his heart, mind, soul and strength and his neighbor as himself… will exhibit both faith and works in his life no matter whether such true disciple accepts the Protestant understanding of the debate or the Catholic one.

One day, in heaven, Jesus will observe two friends arguing about faith and works, one a Lutheran, the other a Catholic. They will ask Jesus who is correct. He will turn to the Lutheran and say “in your life you denied that one was saved by works, yet you showed me that you have works flowing from your faith.” Jesus will then turn to the Catholic and say “in your life you denied that one was saved by faith alone and, based on that understanding, showed me faith and works.” He will then say to the two of them: “both of you have faith, and both of you have works, and both of you are saved by my grace. Which part of the Scriptures did you not read?” Jesus will then smile and walk away…

 

[Damascus]

I like that rr1213.

I agree with that. I am still wondering what happens if I die an adulterer?

 

[rr1213]

I am still wondering what happens if I die an adulterer?

I don’t know, I wouldn’t advise it.

I don’t want to get into a discussion about mortal sin/venial sin, once-saved-always-saved, preserverance of the elect, etc.

 

[PattiC]

Getting back to the original when it was asked how Protestants would answer Catholics over various questions, I have issues with a friend who is so nice in so many other ways, but refuses to see that there is succession of the apostles, and uses circular arguments in an attempt to wear me down. When that doesn’t work, the Catholic bashing goes on, and he won’t listen to the truth about the anti-Catholocism that has gone on in this country and others for years.

We could have a really nice relationship if he would stop this Catholic bashing of his… Even though I tell him that infallibility only counts in Faith and Morals, he tries to use it as a trump card way too often, knowing he gets my goat with it. Plus I won’t read his Gordon Clark books and still want him to read books about The Mass (so he will know the TRUTH, instead of what it is he thinks he knows)… Triumph (history, very condensed)… and oh, the fights over how many things the church Fathers (call no man Father, yikes) changed their minds over throughout the years…

So, I thought I should write with hopes that you all will pray for my protestant friend Jim who takes me into circular arguments way too often when we discuss Faith. Right now we are not speaking to each othere because he went way overboard about his erroneous thinking on INFALLIBILITY… (this particular one over one priest not knowing about radical sanation, and another not keeping mute as regards things said in the confessional … poor guy ended up having a breakdown… human, not Jesus, a human being I told him… :banghead: ) made me nutsykookoo. And ya, he used to try to just wear me down too using those circular arguments, not hearing what I had to say about being RC as he hasn’t quite decided which of the tens of thousands of denominations he is going to be… sigh… Pray for his conversion will you please?

Oh, pray for me too, please, that the Holy Spirit might give me the words that will open his closed mind. You see, he thinks he is an “intellectual”.

And how I have pleaded with Mother Mary to open his heart. I am really glad that I was born into the Catholic Church, I didn’t have to go looking for the Truth, it was in my backyard the whole time… no, don’t live in Kansas.

Thanks for letting me vent.
Isn’t this the best Feast Day?

 

[Damascus]

I don’t know, I wouldn’t advise it.

I don’t want to get into a discussion about mortal sin/venial sin, once-saved-always-saved, preserverance of the elect, etc.

Fair enough. So then you agree that a person who does this is not saved by faith?

 

[Damascus]

Dear Patti, I am worried about your aching head!

Can you give me the facts involving the priest who violated the confessional seal?

I need it badly please if you could, it would come in handy in another matter I am working on…

Getting back to the original when it was asked how Protestants would answer Catholics over various questions, I have issues with a friend who is so nice in so many other ways, but refuses to see that there is succession of the apostles, and uses circular arguments in an attempt to wear me down. When that doesn’t work, the Catholic bashing goes on, and he won’t listen to the truth about the anti-Catholocism that has gone on in this country and others for years.

We could have a really nice relationship if he would stop this Catholic bashing of his… Even though I tell him that infallibility only counts in Faith and Morals, he tries to use it as a trump card way too often, knowing he gets my goat with it. Plus I won’t read his Gordon Clark books and still want him to read books about The Mass (so he will know the TRUTH, instead of what it is he thinks he knows)… Triumph (history, very condensed)… and oh, the fights over how many things the church Fathers (call no man Father, yikes) changed their minds over throughout the years…

So, I thought I should write with hopes that you all will pray for my protestant friend Jim who takes me into circular arguments way too often when we discuss Faith. Right now we are not speaking to each othere because he went way overboard about his erroneous thinking on INFALLIBILITY… (this particular one over one priest not knowing about radical sanation, and another not keeping mute as regards things said in the confessional … poor guy ended up having a breakdown… human, not Jesus, a human being I told him… :banghead: ) made me nutsykookoo. And ya, he used to try to just wear me down too using those circular arguments, not hearing what I had to say about being RC as he hasn’t quite decided which of the tens of thousands of denominations he is going to be… sigh… Pray for his conversion will you please?

Oh, pray for me too, please, that the Holy Spirit might give me the words that will open his closed mind. You see, he thinks he is an “intellectual”.

And how I have pleaded with Mother Mary to open his heart. I am really glad that I was born into the Catholic Church, I didn’t have to go looking for the Truth, it was in my backyard the whole time… no, don’t live in Kansas.

Thanks for letting me vent.
Isn’t this the best Feast Day?

 

[rr1213]

If discussion of your respective faiths is going to lead to these type of arguments, then I’d refrain from talking religion to your friend. Tell him that you value his friendship, you hope that he values your friendship, and that being the case maybe there are some subjects we should avoid. As you noted, you can always pray for him…and he for you.

 

[rr1213]

Fair enough. So then you agree that a person who does this is not saved by faith?

The real question is that if such a person commits adultery, and fails to promptly and truly repent of that sin, what type of faith did he possess in the beginning?

 

[Damascus]

The real question is that if such a person commits adultery, and fails to promptly and truly repent of that sin, what type of faith did he possess in the beginning?

But even Peter denied Christ 3 times! What are your parameters?

 

[rr1213]

But even Peter denied Christ 3 times! What are your parameters?

Yes, and Peter repented of those sins.