Whaddya think???

[Damascus]

Yes, and Peter repented of those sins.

I am so glad we agree. Peter had Jesus right before him and still sinned against his friend, his savior.

We are in another situation. We have the Bible and the Church and (lets not get into that— but the Holy Spirit too)

Yet, what do you see as justice and who do you think will go to hell and why?

 

[PattiC]

Damascus,

will have to pm you on that issue.
It is an amazing thing such standards we hold some people to, yet others who have authority and responsibilities… when they fail or even stumble, they are not castigated and condemed nearly as much as Catholics are.

Is that because folks really do “see” their authority as coming from Jesus Himself and they are so unhappy to see them fall? Or is it glee coming from the other side jumping up and down because of the fall?

Guess I will find out when I get home.

R…All important discussions we have seem to lead into Religion… so I may not talk to him, sadly… but I cannot see myself wasting time reading things that are not going to be edifying to my Catholic faith. There is so much available nowadays, even on the web, though there is nothing like holding a book in your hands.

Mrs. Abbot,
nice thread!

 

[Damascus]

Damascus,

will have to pm you on that issue.

No problem! I understand!

It is an amazing thing such standards we hold some people to, yet others who have authority and responsibilities… when they fail or even stumble, they are not castigated and condemed nearly as much as Catholics are.

Huh? You lost me here!

Is that because folks really do “see” their authority as coming from Jesus Himself and they are so unhappy to see them fall? Or is it glee coming from the other side jumping up and down because of the fall?

Guess I will find out when I get home.

R…All important discussions we have seem to lead into Religion… so I may not talk to him, sadly… but I cannot see myself wasting time reading things that are not going to be edifying to my Catholic faith. There is so much available nowadays, even on the web, though there is nothing like holding a book in your hands.

Mrs. Abbot,
nice thread!

Woah. Please clarify all this as I dont get it. Tell me like I am a 2 year old as I am really wondering what and where you are coming from now.

I will warn you I am very orthodox catholic so if you did not know that , now you do.

your post is a bit fuzzy to me and I hope I am not misunderstanding it…

 

[Damascus]

Dear Pattie-

Lets stick to PM’s or a new thread or —

Lord have mercy!

Mary, hold Pattie in your immaculate mantle and comfort her now!

 

[Damascus]

Mrs Abbott, thank you for this thread!

Let’s all pray for Pattie please!

Mary hear our prayers., Help us!

 

[PattiC]

Sorry, my mind wanders a good bit.
Please forgive me.

I was just pondering how it is that so much Catholic bashing goes on…in the secular news. Not here… in the outside news there are reports on Priests doing this, that and the other… and they are sued in the millions. Yet, public school teachers, police officers, charged with crimes… they are under-reported in comparison… and there is a legal limit to monetary damages.

There are reports FOR homosexuality… about Pro abortion militants, and under-reports of parents attempting to prevent their children from school curricula being forced down their throats to “learn” homosexuality… Little press on the rights of Pro Life groups being violated in their constitutional rights.

Just got my mind going when I started thinking about the irregularity of how “truth” is twisted in this world.

forgive me. I am new to the boards, and am a bit tired so I probably shouldn’t have posted that, but started a new thread.

patti

 

[mrs_abbott]

I think that the old debate over faith/works ultimately does not matter. Yes, fanatical Protestants will deny that Catholics are true Christians because Catholics believe that works are necessary to salvation. Fanatical Catholics will likewise claim that Protestants are not true Christians because they do not hold to Catholic teachings on this subject. Yet, none of these folks grasp that a Christian… a true disciple of Christ who loves the Lord, his God, with all of his heart, mind, soul and strength and his neighbor as himself… will exhibit both faith and works in his life no matter whether such true disciple accepts the Protestant understanding of the debate or the Catholic one.

One day, in heaven, Jesus will observe two friends arguing about faith and works, one a Lutheran, the other a Catholic. They will ask Jesus who is correct. He will turn to the Lutheran and say “in your life you denied that one was saved by works, yet you showed me that you have works flowing from your faith.” Jesus will then turn to the Catholic and say “in your life you denied that one was saved by faith alone and, based on that understanding, showed me faith and works.” He will then say to the two of them: “both of you have faith, and both of you have works, and both of you are saved by my grace. Which part of the Scriptures did you not read?” Jesus will then smile and walk away…

So then you agree that we can be saved by faith AND our works?

 

[mrs_abbott]

None of us are worthy of heaven apart from God’s grace and mercy. If your faith is alive (not dead), it will show fruit. Probably you should not be a grouch, rude and offensive, but I think that is a different issue as to whether you are showing fruit. Think of the parable that Jesus told about the father instructing his two sons to do some work. One cheerfully said “yes sir”, but then went off and did nothing. The other griped and complained but, eventually, went and did his fathers will. Jesus commended the second son. Are there saints in heaven who were cranky old men and women? I suspect so…

I’m not really a grouch. It was just an example. I’m really quite pleasant, most of the time. I’m either one extreme or the other. There’s no happy median.

 

[Damascus]

I’m not really a grouch. It was just an example. I’m really quite pleasant, most of the time. I’m either one extreme or the other. There’s no happy median.

I am a grouch, so I am still waiting to hear what my fate is.

If I die a grouch. And I am not good at math, but I think you meant happy medium?

 

[mrs_abbott]

As Protestants, we see the passages from James as providing us a guide as to how we know if our faith is real or not. If it is not real, then we have real problem…no pun intended.

But James 2:26 plainly states “for just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead”.
We’re not going to come to any conclusion on this, are we? I have a feeling we’re gonna keep going round and round on this.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I am a grouch, so I am still waiting to hear what my fate is.

If I die a grouch. And I am not good at math, but I think you meant happy medium?

No, median like the lines in the center of the road. I can never be in the middle. I’m either really happy or very much not.
I’m only grouchy when I have to talk to my mother-in-law. lol j/k

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hey,

I dont believe works do anything for our salvation. What I do believe is that anything I do for the Glory of God and not me PLEASES GOD. We are given rewards in heaven for works done here in HIS name. Works that are done in our name are burned up on judgement day.
Ok now I have entered a whole different realm and do not want to confuse you anymore. I wonder if that is the verse that catholics use for purgatory. Im not sure where that verse is but Im sure someone will put it up.

Lemme see if I got it straight now. So we agree that faith with earn us a seat in Heaven? If yes, I’ll move on.
Works, on the other hand, can only benefit us if we do works in His Name? I’m not trying to sound corny but it’s kinda like earning “brownie points” in Heaven that we don’t know about but are hoping God is noticing?
Again, if this isn’t the case, feel free to correct me. It’s past my bedtime now.

 

[Damascus]

Lemme see if I got it straight now. So we agree that faith with earn us a seat in Heaven? If yes, I’ll move on.
Works, on the other hand, can only benefit us if we do works in His Name? I’m not trying to sound corny but it’s kinda like earning “brownie points” in Heaven that we don’t know about but are hoping God is noticing?
Again, if this isn’t the case, feel free to correct me. It’s past my bedtime now.

I vote to split it down the middle (or median LOL!) and call it a day.

The issue is far to confusing to me the way its been explained so far IMHO.

Does it make sense to you? I guess I am too stupid to be a Protestant. I just dont get it.

 

[runandsew]

Well, Ephesians 2:8 says “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Emphasis added). The only mention to works is to emphasize that we are not saved by works, but by faith so no one can boast of their works.

This passage is talking about salvation in the past tense – “you have been saved.” Paul is talking about “initial salvation”, the type we receive when we first came to God and were justified.
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach us that we receive that initial justification by good works. The Council of Trent states: “And we are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).
So even if Paul is using the word “works” here to mean “good works” there is no conflict with Catholic theology.
But Paul is probably talking about “works of the Law” here as he usually does, those works done out of the Law of Moses.
He is making the point here that we are saved by faith in Jesus and not by obeying the Mosaic Law. He is telling the Jews that they can’t boast of having a privileged relationship with God because they keep the Mosaic Law, ie. circumcision.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I have already addressed James in my earlier post, how do you account for Romans 5:1: “since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”

…or, even more directly, Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The classic Anglican description of the relationship between grace, works and faith, which I cited in my previous post, is that we are “saved by grace, through faith, and unto good works.” This seems to be what Romans and Ephesians tell us. James does not contradict Romans and Ephesians (and the other Pauline letters). How do you address Romans and Ephesians?

The easiest answer is that it’s not your faith that saves you. It is Jesus’ faith that saves you.

In other words, Jesus is living within you by the Holy Spirit and sharing his faith with you-- effectively believing on your behalf for you.

It’s not about us believing in God. In about God believing in us-- quite literally living within us and believing in God for us. Believing in God is therefere a manifestation of the Holy Spirit being active-- so we can’t even claim to have done this much. God does it through us.

 

[djrakowski]

I dont believe works do anything for our salvation.

I know you don’t believe it. But, what does the Bible have to say?

 

[djrakowski]

What if you … God forbid! Perish the thought, DIE before that happens!

When I was an evangelical, I was taught that sanctification happened after the moment I was saved and sealed for heaven for all eternity, regardless of any sins I would commit from that point forward. Apparently, sanctification had nothing to do with my salvation, and was used as either a credit for bigger rewards in heaven (can anyone imagine a better reward than the Beatific Vision. Not to mention, they say we’re mechanistic with indulgences and such!) or to enhance my ‘witness’ to non-Christians while here on earth, in effect bringing them into relationship with Christ.

 

[rr1213]

… in the outside news there are reports on Priests doing this, that and the other… and they are sued in the millions. Yet, public school teachers, police officers, charged with crimes… they are under-reported in comparison… and there is a legal limit to monetary damages.

If you are talking about claims against individual priests, school teachers, police officers, I would seriously doubt that any state has a law that would limit available damages against one as opposed to the other. On the other hand, the entity that employs the individuals–if it is a governmental entity-- may be immune from damages as the result of sovereign immunity or the damages against the government may be capped, such as with a Tort Claims Act. A Church on the other hand, Catholic or otherwise, would not enjoy any claim of soverign immunity. (Although diplomatic representatives of the Catholic Church may since Vatican City is an indepenent state, but individual dioceses are not).

 

[rr1213]

When I was an evangelical, I was taught that sanctification happened after the moment I was saved and sealed for heaven for all eternity, regardless of any sins I would commit from that point forward.

Justification or sanctification?

 

[djrakowski]

Justification or sanctification?

Sorry, I’ll clarify. I was taught that I was justified and sealed for eternity when I ‘accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior,’ which kicked off a lifelong process of sanctification that had no purpose other than to bolster the reward I would receive in heaven (which makes absolutely no sense to me, as I repeat - what’s more rewarding than the Beatific Vision) or to strengthen my ‘witness’ in sharing my faith with non-Christians (which, in our church, included heavy ‘witnessing’ to pagan Catholics) - in effect, having the ability to say, “see what God did in my life? imagine what he could do in yours!”

Sorry for the imprecision, and thanks for catching it. I should’ve been more careful in what I wrote the first time.