Whaddya think???

[rr1213]

So then you agree that we can be saved by faith AND our works?

No. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and unto good works. See Ephesians. However, I think that a devout Protestant who follows the Protestant teaching on this subject will have both faith and works in his life. So will a devout Catholic who follows Catholic teaching on the issue. The only real difference between the two is that the Protestant will believe that his salvation is promised to him by God based on his faith and, thus, the Protestant’s works simply show his love and thanks for God’s promise. In contrast, the Catholic will believe that the promise from God of his salvation is based on the Catholic’s faith and the Catholic’s works. Hence, the origin of the common Catholic angst…“are my works sufficient?”

 

[djrakowski]

No. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and unto good works. See Ephesians. However, I think that a devout Protestant who follows the Protestant teaching on this subject will have both faith and works in his life. So will a devout Catholic who follows Catholic teaching on the issue. The only real difference between the two is that the Protestant will believe that his salvation is promised to him by God based on his faith and, thus, the Protestant’s works simply show his love and thanks for God’s promise. In contrast, the Catholic will believe that the promise from God of his salvation is based on the Catholic’s faith and the Catholic’s works. Hence, the origin of the common Catholic angst…“are my works sufficient?”

Hence, also, a common Protestant angst - one both my wife and I experienced - is, did I really mean it when I ‘asked Jesus into my heart as personal Lord and Savior,’ and thus, was I really saved? (I have a side point about how some Protestant churches almost treat the act of praying a sinner’s prayer as a work, but vehemently deny it as such).

 

[runandsew]

No. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and unto good works. See Ephesians. However, I think that a devout Protestant who follows the Protestant teaching on this subject will have both faith and works in his life. So will a devout Catholic who follows Catholic teaching on the issue. The only real difference between the two is that the Protestant will believe that his salvation is promised to him by God based on his faith and, thus, the Protestant’s works simply show his love and thanks for God’s promise. In contrast, the Catholic will believe that the promise from God of his salvation is based on the Catholic’s faith and the Catholic’s works. Hence, the origin of the common Catholic angst…“are my works sufficient?”

I would say as a Catholic, that my angst would be, are my works out of love?, Not if they are sufficient or have I done enough.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I know you don’t believe it. But, what does the Bible have to say?

You know what it says. I do believe that what RR says is right though and I have been feeling the same way just didnt know how to express it in writing. Post # 51.

 

[rr1213]

Hence, also, a common Protestant angst - one both my wife and I experienced - is, did I really mean it when I ‘asked Jesus into my heart as personal Lord and Savior,’ and thus, was I really saved? (I have a side point about how some Protestant churches almost treat the act of praying a sinner’s prayer as a work, but vehemently deny it as such).

Good point. But since both Catholic and Protestant theology require that the sinner have faith and believe, don’t you also have Catholics wondering if they truly, actually, in the depths of their hearts…believe? That their faith is true?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Lemme see if I got it straight now. So we agree that faith with earn us a seat in Heaven? If yes, I’ll move on.
Works, on the other hand, can only benefit us if we do works in His Name? I’m not trying to sound corny but it’s kinda like earning “brownie points” in Heaven that we don’t know about but are hoping God is noticing?
Again, if this isn’t the case, feel free to correct me. It’s past my bedtime now.

Hi,
This is for you too Damascus. I have not studied this subject. I am by no means a scholar about rewards in heaven. I will give you the bible verses where it talks about them and you can research it yourself and decide for yourself.
2 Timothy 4:84:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
James 1:12
1:12
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
Matthew 5:3-12
5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5:4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5:5
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
5:10
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5:11
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
**5:12
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. **

1 Peter 5:4
5:4
And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Revelation 2:10
2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 4:10
4:10
the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

From what I have heard in the past we receive crowns and lay them at Jesus’s feet. I do not understand anymore about this subject.

 

[djrakowski]

Good point. But since both Catholic and Protestant theology require that the sinner have faith and believe, don’t you also have Catholics wondering if they truly, actually, in the depths of their hearts…believe? That their faith is true?

Perhaps, but there’s a big difference - I’ve never been asked by a Catholic when I ‘accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.’ I don’t have to remember a magic, lightning-bolt moment when I was suddenly convicted of my sins. Furthermore, since I believe that actual saving grace is imparted by sacramental baptism, I see that the process of salvation was started on me waaay back then. It was in my adult years that I decided to appropriate it for myself.

Really, there’s another component to the doubts I had as an evangelical. We went to one of those churches that preached out of both sides of its mouth regarding suffering. It was either God’s punishment for sin in my life that I had either not realized, or was obstinately denying, or it was an opportunity to grow in knowledge of, commitment to, and/or reliance upon God. More often, it was the former, which I just couldn’t square with scripture (Job, anyone?) or experience (it was my children who were suffering with incurable neurological conditions, and I could hardly believe that God was punishing them for my sins).

When I was most convinced of the first reason - that I was suffering because of sin - is when I had the least assurance of my salvation. If I had a real conversion, I figured, I would be convicted of this mysterious sin that was causing my children (and my wife and I by extension) to suffer, and that suffering would be alleviated. So I was constantly re-commiting myself to Christ, and guess what? There was no healing, so I must not have made a strong enough commitment.

This all reminds me of the case of a very nice gentleman who attends my former church. By outward appearances, this man was the model of a Christian. He served enthusiastically in a number of lay ministry positions, was deeply knowledgable about scripture, and raised wonderful young adults who loved and served Jesus. Yet, one Sunday, he got up in front of the congregation and tearfully admitted that he hadn’t really committed himself to Christ - that he had just come to realize that he hadn’t really understood what it meant when he made his ‘sinner’s prayer’ years ago. If he could be fooled for so many years in thinking he was a Christian, I thought, how much more could I be fooled, when I don’t even have the zeal to serve, and in addition, I was suffering, and he wasn’t. It was a very, very unpleasant phase of my walk with Christ, to say the least.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I would say as a Catholic, that my angst would be, are my works out of love?, Not if they are sufficient or have I done enough.

Hi,
As a born again christian I am constantly checking my motives for doing something good. Am I doing it to make myself feel good or to Glorify God. Sometimes we think we have the right motive and we dont. So many times this happens to me. Our hearts are just so wicked and selfish. Well, I keep working on it with the help of the Holy Spirit:thumbsup:

 

[rr1213]

Really, there’s another component to the doubts I had as an evangelical. We went to one of those churches that preached out of both sides of its mouth regarding suffering. It was either God’s punishment for sin in my life that I had either not realized, or was obstinately denying, or it was an opportunity to grow in knowledge of, commitment to, and/or reliance upon God. More often, it was the former, which I just couldn’t square with scripture (Job, anyone?) or experience (it was my children who were suffering with incurable neurological conditions, and I could hardly believe that God was punishing them for my sins).

When I was most convinced of the first reason - that I was suffering because of sin - is when I had the least assurance of my salvation. If I had a real conversion, I figured, I would be convicted of this mysterious sin that was causing my children (and my wife and I by extension) to suffer, and that suffering would be alleviated. So I was constantly re-commiting myself to Christ, and guess what? There was no healing, so I must not have made a strong enough commitment.

That must have been a terrible experience for you. I have thankfully avoided the suffering you describe relating to your children. As for believing that one’s problems come from a lack of faith, I remember when I first became a Christian as a child. It was through a study group that some of my evangelical neighbors set up. Later, I got sick (nothing big) and thought that it must be because of my sins. My mother brought over the leader of the study group to my bedside and she assured me that wasn’t the case. I suppose I was lucky to have that counsel at that time. You are, of course, correct that reading Job should dissuade anyone that suffering (in this life) necessarily comes from our personal sin. Can it? Yes, I think so, but mostl of the time I think that our individual suffering is the result of the fallen world we live in as opposed to personal sin.

 

[djrakowski]

You are, of course, correct that reading Job should dissuade anyone that suffering (in this life) necessarily comes from our personal sin. Can it? Yes, I think so, but mostl of the time I think that our individual suffering is the result of the fallen world we live in as opposed to personal sin.

From your particular Protestant perspective, how would you interpret Colossians 1:24 (quoted here from the NIV): “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.”

 

[Damascus]

ALL for Him! Hi!

Did not see the part about any rewards in heaven being greater for anyone.

Sorry, I must have missed it. It says no such thing from what you cited.

 

[AlegreFe]

…
Romans 5:
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we [a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Here’s the rest of those verses that go along with the ones you put here; this is sooo needed for this discussion and you did not put it in with your verses. Catholics do actually read the whole Bible.

Rom 5:1-5 (DR-V)
1 Being justified therefore by faith, let us
have peace with God, through our Lord
Jesus Christ
2 By whom also we have access through
faith into this grace, wherein we stand,
and glory in the hope of the glory of the
sons of God.
3 And not only so; but we glory also in
tribulations, knowing that tribulation
worketh patience;
4 And patience trial; and trial hope;
5 And hope confoundeth not: because
the charity of God is poured forth in
our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is
given to us.

Catholics highly believe in the Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope & Love. That is what it takes to keep on that journey to Heaven in the eyes and mind of a well learned and Faithful Catholic.

Paul here talks about trials and tribulations and having patience and hope. Hope in Jesus Christ! Hope that one day we can see Him! But trials and tribulations to me sounds like we have to “work out our salvation” and therefore we are not saved by faith alone. We believe in faith, hope & love; love being our good works or “works of mercy.” When I think of “works” I think of the Ten Commandments. Jesus tied them all up into two great commandments and that is to Love God and Love our neighbor. That is where “love” comes in for our “Faith, Hope & Love.”

1. We need Faith in order to be Baptized. (parents’ faith if infant)
----***** Baptism means we are “born again” and adopted by God.
----***** When we were baptized we received Sanctifying Grace.
----******* Grace** is a “share in Divine Life” which we all need.
I was saved!

2. Once “born again” we are to stay alive.
----***** stay alive with God’s Grace.
----***** accept Grace in order to show faith which we need to stay alive.
----***** show faith by loving God and loving others as ourselves (works of mercy).
I am being saved!

3. We should have hope that we can see God.
----***** put your hope and trust in Jesus Christ.
----***** Do not despair. God’s mercy is greater than your sin.
----***** Trust in the Faith of Jesus Christ.
----***** Jesus Christ is our Divine Mercy!
I hope to be saved!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
"Jezu Ufam Tobie"

cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont

rr1213:

These passages, and others in Scripture such as Ephesians, are the basis for the Protestant belief that we are saved through faith apart from works.

That’s only the beginning. It takes Faith to be “born again.” then we have to stay alive once we’re born. God did not allow for the Gentiles to be “born again” (as in being Baptized) just by being circumcized or them offering up burnt sacrifices or bringing two doves for sin offerings. Neither did He allow their own works to save them. What was needed was Faith in Jesus Christ. But only God, with His Grace, can bring forth these people to profess their faith.

So it is Grace that saves us. But we have to accept and cooperate with that Grace. Then and only then can we show our Faith with our Love or “good works.” If we reject God by our sin we do not accept Grace. But we know that when we sin, God’s Grace is poured out for us, so we have to accept it in order to confess that we have sinned and accept God into our hearts again; therefore being “born again” in a sense.

That can happen in the Sacrament of Confession for Catholics. And I guess for Protestants they have to repent and amend their lives by asking Jesus Christ for His mercy. That is what Catholics do in Confession. Jesus is just “hidden” by the flesh of the Priest. We have to make a good confession and have a perfect act of contrition. A perfect act of contrition is when we are sorry for our sins out of Love for God as opposed to out of fear of Hell. It is said that in the Sacrament of Confession we do not need to have a perfect act of contrition in order to be absolved of our sins; it is enough to be sorry out of fear of Hell. But that for me, just doesn’t cut it. I love Jesus Christ so much that I hate to sin. I don’t want to offend Jesus Christ in any way, (even though I do a lot. ) because I Love Him a lot and it’s not so much out of fear of Hell. I mean I do fear Hell but I Love God more than I fear Hell.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved
through faith, and this is not from
you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may
boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created
in Christ Jesus for the good works that
God has prepared in advance, that we
should live in them.

When you mentioned that verse you failed to mention the next verses. They are very important. God has prepared good works for us; so we have to “live in them” in order to “stay alive.”

The way a Catholic could answer if they are “saved” is by replying;

• I was saved by Grace through Faith when I was baptized.
• I am being saved by Loving God and showing love to my neighbor.
• I hope to be saved by trusting in God’s Mercy for me.

Acts 24:15-16
15 I have the same hope in God as they
themselves have that there will be a
resurrection of the righteous and the
unrighteous.
16 Because of this, I always strive to keep
my conscience clear before God and man.

Phil 3:8-14
8 More than that, I even consider everything
as a loss because of the supreme good of
knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.
For his sake I have accepted the loss of all
things and I consider them so much rubbish,
that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having any
righteousness of my own based on the law
but that which comes through faith in Christ,
the righteousness from God, depending on
faith
10 to know him and the power of his
resurrection and (the) sharing of his sufferings
by being conformed to his death,
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection
from the dead.
12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it
or have already attained perfect maturity, but
I continue my pursuit in hope that I may
possess it, since I have indeed been taken
possession of by Christ (Jesus).
13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider
myself to have taken possession. Just one
thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining
forward to what lies ahead,
14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the
prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.

cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont

rr1213:

In reality, we are saved only by grace…something that Catholics and Protestants agree on. What about James? Obviously, Scripture cannot contradict itself so -]James must be read in context with Romans…and Romans read in context with James/-]. What James tells us is that a faith which does not show fruit (i.e., good works) is not a real faith. It is an “intellectual only” faith, a “dead faith”. You say that God is one? Good. The demons believe…and shudder. If you read these passages together, it tells you that you are saved by grace, through faith and unto good works. The good works are the evidence of a real faith.

I somewhat agree with you.

But what James means is in the “now.” Not what happened one time when we professed our Faith and were “saved.”

So the passage in James is simple cut & dry when you look at it from that perspective. Nothing else to it. Faith is dead when you don’t show it by works, period. Once “saved” I have to stay alive with my works. But I have to put my trust and hope in Jesus Christ in order to be saved when that time comes. If we despair, then we stop trusting in Jesus. That is the worst sin one can have; to think that our sin is greater than God’s mercy for us. That could be one of the sins against the Holy Spirit. You can’t go back on that one. To think one refuses salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ through the working of the Holy Spirit by the blood shed of Jesus Christ on the Cross…
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/huhh.gif that’s frightening.

We also know that our works alone will not save us. So I believe that the Grace that comes from the cross of Christ is what saves me and with that I have to have Faith but it can’t be “dead” faith. I have to show my faith with my works of mercy. I have to Love God and Love my neighbor as myself. So Love is a huge part of my salvation. Otherwise I have dead empty faith.

We can’t forget about being holy and perfect.

 

[rr1213]

From your particular Protestant perspective, how would you interpret Colossians 1:24 (quoted here from the NIV): “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.”

Paul certainly suffered many persecutions and problems while teaching the Gospel. From his writings we are familiar with some of these, although no one has ever really definitively discovered the nature of his particular “thorn in the flesh”. I don’t know what Paul means by saying that he “fill up in [his] flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions.” I would have to research that point.

 

[djrakowski]

Paul certainly suffered many persecutions and problems while teaching the Gospel. From his writings we are familiar with some of these, although no one has ever really definitively discovered the nature of his particular “thorn in the flesh”. I don’t know what Paul means by saying that he “fill up in [his] flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions.” I would have to research that point.

I have to prod a little bit more on this point: what exactly is lacking in Christ’s afflictions? Is this not inspired, inerrant scripture? Is it not possible that Paul’s sufferings somehow have a redemptive value - that is, that they contribute, and in an essential way, to his sanctification?

It seems that Paul’s particular thorn in the flesh is rather beside the point he is trying to make, which is this: that there is a shared component to the suffering of Christ that we experience, and that contributes to our sanctification.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I have already addressed James in my earlier post, how do you account for Romans 5:1: “since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”

…or, even more directly, Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The classic Anglican description of the relationship between grace, works and faith, which I cited in my previous post, is that we are “saved by grace, through faith, and unto good works.” This seems to be what Romans and Ephesians tell us. James does not contradict Romans and Ephesians (and the other Pauline letters). How do you address Romans and Ephesians?

AMEN Fellow Christian. We are saved by Faith just as your scripture passages say, but it also requires works, just as James says. The problem is adding alone where it doesn’t belong.

Your passages say we are saved by Faith which is compatible with James says we are not saved by Fatih ALONE. However the same cannot be said if you reverse the prosess and claim your passages mean FAITH ALONE then compare it to James.

 

[Damascus]

I am kinda wondering who came up with the formula that one must read James with Ephesians and Romans to begin with? I am lost on that one.

 

[djrakowski]

I am kinda wondering who came up with the formula that one must read James with Ephesians and Romans to begin with? I am lost on that one.

So am I. These letters were written to specific churches by specific individuals to address specific matters, and not in mind of picking off and stringing together unrelated verses to make theological points.

 

[Damascus]

So am I. These letters were written to specific churches by specific individuals to address specific matters, and not in mind of picking off and stringing together unrelated verses to make theological points.