What 10 Priests Say About Gay Marriage

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Bob: I would like your company to photograph our wedding

Photographer: No i will not photograph your wedding because its a gay wedding.

Bob: I have a legal right to wedding services, why am i being excluded? I would like to speak to the owner of your company

Photographer: I am the owner. I believe homosexuality is a sin and Gay marriage is an abomination. That is why i am excluding you.

Bob: I am suing your company for discrimination. You can speak to my lawyer.

Comparison: This time its an interracial Marriage.

Bob Marley:
I would like your company to photograph our wedding

Photographer: No i will not photograph your wedding because you’re a negro marrying a white woman.

Bob Marley: I have a legal right to wedding services, why am i being excluded? I would like to speak to the owner of your company

Photographer: I am the owner. Our services are for white people only. We do not believe in interracial marriage. It is a sin and an abomination. That is why i am excluding you.

Bob Marley: I am suing your company for discrimination. You can speak to my lawyer.
You truly do not understand. There is no religious teaching that participating in an inter racial event is considered cooperation with sin. These are completely different examples that address completely different issues. In scenario 1 (which is totally specious as the photographer would just say no he is unable to perform the service and that would end the discussion) the photographer expresses a religious objection to participating in an activity his faith considers cooperating with sin. In scenario 2 (must have dusted off something from the 1950s I guess?) the photographer does not express a religious objection but a racial animus…something that has been against the law for some time now.

Do you not understand we live in something called a free enterprise system? If you are a photographer you do not have to accept everyone who calls wanting your services. With few exceptions (such as life saving medical care) you cannot compel someone to provide a good or service they do not offer. That would be slavery.
 
You truly do not understand. There is no religious teaching that participating in an inter racial event is considered cooperation with sin.
It is irrelevant. If people believe interracial marriage is wrong and refuse services to persons protected by the state then they are in the same boat as you are from a legal perspective.

It is you that does not understand.
 
It is irrelevant. If people believe interracial marriage is wrong and refuse services to persons protected by the state then they are in the same boat as you are from a legal perspective.

It is you that does not understand.
No, they aren’t the same from a legal perspective. The reason you choose to refuse services is relevant because we recognize that people have a right to the free practice of their religious beliefs, including the free practice of their religious beliefs in their workplace. You can’t circumscribe that right by essentially telling them they can’t have a certain job if they want to practice their religion.
 
You truly do not understand. There is no religious teaching that participating in an inter racial event is considered cooperation with sin.
Not in your religion, now, maybe. But religious arguments were used against interracial marriage, and many people still hold such beliefs.

So, in summary, you think your religious beliefs are protected, but not those of others.
In scenario 2 (must have dusted off something from the 1950s I guess?) the photographer does not express a religious objection but a racial animus…something that has been against the law for some time now.
He calls it a ‘sin’ - which is an intrinsically religious concept.
With few exceptions (such as life saving medical care) you cannot compel someone to provide a good or service they do not offer.
But you can sue them for restricting who they offer a service they do provide on the basis of a protected class.
That would be slavery.
No. Slavery is being forced go work for no pay.
 
No, they aren’t the same from a legal perspective. The reason you choose to refuse services is relevant because we recognize that people have a right to the free practice of their religious beliefs, including the free practice of their religious beliefs in their workplace. You can’t circumscribe that right by essentially telling them they can’t have a certain job if they want to practice their religion.
So you can’t say someone cannot work as a slaughterman in an abattoir if their religion forbids them from killing animals? Is the abattoir compelled to pay them to drink tea all day or what? :rolleyes:
 
So you can’t say someone cannot work as a slaughterman in an abattoir if their religion forbids them from killing animals? Is the abattoir compelled to pay them to drink tea all day or what? :rolleyes:
In that instance, the employer has to show that the “government action” or the law in question (not being allowed to discriminate against people for the practice of their religion) creates an undue burden on the employer. If the individual is effectively prevented from doing the job for which they were hired, that would be an undue burden. It’s the same test applied when accommodation for disabilities is at issue.

No right is absolute. When two rights conflict, the courts have to determine how to best balance those rights, and where one party’s rights will be infringed, they must do so in the least restrictive manner necessary.
 
No right is absolute. When two rights conflict, the courts have to determine how to best balance those rights, and where one party’s rights will be infringed, they must do so in the least restrictive manner necessary.
:rolleyes:
 
No right is absolute. When two rights conflict, the courts have to determine how to best balance those rights, and where one party’s rights will be infringed, they must do so in the least restrictive manner necessary.
Bingo.

And the courts, and a lot of people, feel that if you choose to open a business offering a service in the public arena, it is reasonable to prevent you from refusing that service to a number of often-persecuted ‘protected classes’.

There are exceptions even then - for example if your religious views are the sticking point, you could choose to make your operation overtly a religious one. Or cite freedom of speech if it is a question of that - I for one feel that businesses can (and should be able to) refuse to carry out an act of speech such as printing a particular slogan. It is debateable where you draw the line of what counts as such ‘speech’ - but I don’t think that taking stock photographs or baking a standard cake with no wording could possibly count as such.
 
Bingo.

And the courts, and a lot of people, feel that if you choose to open a business offering a service in the public arena, it is reasonable to prevent you from refusing that service to a number of often-persecuted ‘protected classes’.

There are exceptions even then - for example if your religious views are the sticking point, you could choose to make your operation overtly a religious one. Or cite freedom of speech if it is a question of that - I for one feel that businesses can (and should be able to) refuse to carry out an act of speech such as printing a particular slogan. It is debateable where you draw the line of what counts as such ‘speech’ - but I don’t think that taking stock photographs or baking a standard cake with no wording could possibly count as such.
First, there is no reason to couch this as a poorly constructed and badly framed “freedom of speech” argument, when there is an entrenched right to freedom of religion. Freedom of speech is not a stronger right than freedom of religion.

Second, if you go back to my original post, you’ll see that nowhere did I suggest that business owners should have an unfettered right to refuse to serve anyone they want, on any grounds. Rather, I said (and the courts in both Canada and the US have supported this as a legal proposition) that where a business owner can show that by providing that service they would be violating one of their own moral precepts, then they should not be forced to provide such a service. Note that the burden is on the business owner to demonstrate how providing the service violates the moral precept; it isn’t presumed by nature of the refusal that the refusal is valid.

Once the owner has shown that providing the service would violate a moral precept, it is then left to the court to determine if compelling the owner to provide that service is the least restrictive method of advancing their objectives. Here, let’s assume that the governmental objective is to discourage discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.

If your answer to this dilemma is, “Provide the service or don’t run that business,” that is not the least restrictive manner of dealing with this conflict of rights. In fact, depriving someone of their livelihood or restricting them from pursuing a given livelihood is incredibly restrictive.

Some alternatives might be, they can refuse to provide the service, but must provide reasonable alternatives (which is the ethical obligations generally imposed on lawyers). Or that they can provide limited services which do not violate their moral precepts. If a bakery is indeed covered, for example, then the bakery could say that they will provide a pre-made cake, but no custom work, or that they will provide a cake, but not be responsible for any delivery and set up - I don’t personally feel a bakery would meet the requisite level of involvement, so I’m just using these as examples.

In Canada, the balance has generally been struck by looking at the nature of the business and the ongoing operation of the business to determine to what extent the ordinary operation of that business is linked to or would be impacted by the service provider’s faith. If, for instance, a bed and breakfast refuses to provide a room to a homosexual married couple on the grounds that they are a “Christian” organization and do not recognize same-sex marriages, but does not bother to screen heterosexual couples who might be staying to ensure they are married, it is an argument which is unlike to succeed. Essentially, you can be Christian, but don’t be hypocritical. A wedding planner, however, who only plans Christian weddings, reviews the faith requirements of each couple, and does refuse couples who are only being married civilly would likely not be required to provide such services.

I am less familiar with the case law in the US, only the broad principles at play, but I think the ruling in Hobby Lobby adequately demonstrates how these interests get balanced. There, the government tried to compel Hobby Lobby to pay for insurance that would allow its employees to access abortifacient contraceptives. The court found that they could not do so, because there were less restrictive means of meeting the government objectives (providing this coverage) than compelling the employer to violate a moral precept.

And I will say this again - I truly think that in this debate, both sides need to take a step back and step down. I think there are times that the “gay rights” activists shove these issues and denials in everyone’s face to make a point; it isn’t necessary. Just have some respect for the fact that even though your position may be legally recognized, that doesn’t mean everyone agrees with it. It doesn’t mean they think you’re evil or horrible or terrible - they just disagree. And, I think there are those in the Christian community who could stand to take a deep breath and acknowledge that same-sex marriage is legal and it isn’t fair to punish those who are simply availing themselves of their legal rights. Unless you really do feel you will be committing a mortal sin to bake a cake because two men asked you to bake it, rather than a man and a woman, just bake the cake. And if you do genuinely feel it is a mortal sin, then find a charitable way to say that and recommend a good alternative.
 
First, there is no reason to couch this as a poorly constructed and badly framed “freedom of speech” argument, when there is an entrenched right to freedom of religion. Freedom of speech is not a stronger right than freedom of religion.

Some alternatives might be, they can refuse to provide the service, but must provide reasonable alternatives (which is the ethical obligations generally imposed on lawyers). Or that they can provide limited services which do not violate their moral precepts. If a bakery is indeed covered, for example, then the bakery could say that they will provide a pre-made cake, but no custom work, or that they will provide a cake, but not be responsible for any delivery and set up - I don’t personally feel a bakery would meet the requisite level of involvement, so I’m just using these as examples.

And I will say this again - I truly think that in this debate, both sides need to take a step back and step down. I think there are times that the “gay rights” activists shove these issues and denials in everyone’s face to make a point; it isn’t necessary. Just have some respect for the fact that even though your position may be legally recognized, that doesn’t mean everyone agrees with it. It doesn’t mean they think you’re evil or horrible or terrible - they just disagree. And, I think there are those in the Christian community who could stand to take a deep breath and acknowledge that same-sex marriage is legal and it isn’t fair to punish those who are simply availing themselves of their legal rights. Unless you really do feel you will be committing a mortal sin to bake a cake because two men asked you to bake it, rather than a man and a woman, just bake the cake. And if you do genuinely feel it is a mortal sin, then find a charitable way to say that and recommend a good alternative.
Wow I feel like I just received some very valuable legal information and I thank you for taking the time. I have a particular interest in these cases, one because I’ve been following them for several years with utter dismay at the sheer nastiness that has resulted when someone wanting a cake or photography or use of a B&B has been refused on religious grounds. The proprietors of the business have not simply been sued but various state agencies have fined them, shut them down and they have been individually harassed, persecuted and attacked publicly and privately.

Because of the “bakery suer” cases I’ve gone from being very supportive of the cause of gays and Lesbians having seen overty bigotry, job loss and other uncharitable action taken simply because of their sexual orientation to complete frustration at the hills these folks wish to die on.

In the cases I followed the proprietors of the business did exactly as you suggested. If they were not able to accommodate the wishes of the gay couple,they offered alternatives or alternative providers. Clearly the point was agenda, not actually obtaining a service. In one of the first cases a very small very Christian B&B was set up by a Lesbian couple. It was well known that this couple were scrupulous in screening potential guests. Couples had to be married, not just living together (I doubt if they looked for copies of licenses but I suspect most people would be honest) They even excluded one of their own children from staying because the son or daughter was cohabitating. However they were pegged to be a test case and a Lesbian couple requested the honeymoon suite making it very clear they were Lesbians. Further they were not even “married” at the time. When refused the couple offered to contact several other B&Bs they knew would accept this couple but instead a suit resulted. I think they were able to avoid damages and fines because it was a small family owned operation and not subject to the same requirements.

We also had a bakery in this town, run out of business over a gay “commitment ceremony” cake. The baker had no problem selling off the shelf items to gays and Lesbians and apparently had a number of loyal gay and Lesbian customers. But aside from the reality that gay “marriage” wasn’t even available, the couple sued, put in a complaint with some state agency and otherwise ruined their lives.

The irony is that bakers, photographers, B&Bs and other service providers have always had the ability to say no to a potential client or customer…and no questions were asked. I took a photography class from a photographer who limited his weddings to churches only. He would not do outdoor, beach, tavern or golf club weddings as he was a religious man and felt that these other venues were disrespectful to marriage as a holy and sacramental act. I don’t recall him being sued by the Gypsy Jokers because he wouldn’t do a biker wedding at the Blue Moon Tavern!

I just have to truly wonder if gay activists think this helps their cause. In my opinion it does not but makes them look petty, vengeful and unreasonable.

I AM interested at the latest iteration where a Muslim barber refused to cut the hair of a Lesbian based on religious grounds. The Secular Progressives are really going to have a dilemma as they decide which of these two interest groups they want to pander to more. FWIW there have been a number of Muslim cab drivers who refused blind persons who have seeing eye dogs as well as refusing to transport clients who have alcohol with them or are inebriated. Ah the clash of civilizations…bring on the popcorn.
 
First, there is no reason to couch this as a poorly constructed and badly framed “freedom of speech” argument, when there is an entrenched right to freedom of religion. Freedom of speech is not a stronger right than freedom of religion.

If your answer to this dilemma is, “Provide the service or don’t run that business,” that is not the least restrictive manner of dealing with this conflict of rights. In fact, depriving someone of their livelihood or restricting them from pursuing a given livelihood is incredibly restrictive.

Some alternatives might be, they can refuse to provide the service, but must provide reasonable alternatives (which is the ethical obligations generally imposed on lawyers). Or that they can provide limited services which do not violate their moral precepts. If a bakery is indeed covered, for example, then the bakery could say that they will provide a pre-made cake, but no custom work, or that they will provide a cake, but not be responsible for any delivery and set up - I don’t personally feel a bakery would meet the requisite level of involvement, so I’m just using these as examples.

I am less familiar with the case law in the US, only the broad principles at play, but I think the ruling in Hobby Lobby adequately demonstrates how these interests get balanced. There, the government tried to compel Hobby Lobby to pay for insurance that would allow its employees to access abortifacient contraceptives. The court found that they could not do so, because there were less restrictive means of meeting the government objectives (providing this coverage) than compelling the employer to violate a moral precept.

And I will say this again - I truly think that in this debate, both sides need to take a step back and step down. I think there are times that the “gay rights” activists shove these issues and denials in everyone’s face to make a point; it isn’t necessary. Just have some respect for the fact that even though your position may be legally recognized, that doesn’t mean everyone agrees with it. It doesn’t mean they think you’re evil or horrible or terrible - they just disagree. And, I think there are those in the Christian community who could stand to take a deep breath and acknowledge that same-sex marriage is legal and it isn’t fair to punish those who are simply availing themselves of their legal rights. Unless you really do feel you will be committing a mortal sin to bake a cake because two men asked you to bake it, rather than a man and a woman, just bake the cake. And if you do genuinely feel it is a mortal sin, then find a charitable way to say that and recommend a good alternative.
👍 I responded to this yesterday but apparently there were some problems with the list. I appreciate your cogent and rational post, laying out both the arguments and the possible responses.

Just as an aside, I do know for example that in one of the first cases, a Christian B&B, the proprietors were very clear that they operated their B&B on their faith and as a result there were restrictions as to whom they would accept. In fact they were so strict about this they would not allow their cohabiting child and partner to stay there. They were deliberately set up by a Lesbian couple who made it very clear they were Lesbians and wanted a special “honeymoon” suite. Had they simply wanted to stay there, they probably could have simply booked the room for two females…girlfriends weekend, that type of thing but it was clear it was agenda driven with legal action planned. When the couple told them their Christian faith wouldn’t allow them to stay, they gave several references for other local B&Bs and offered to make calls. Again, not what the Lesbians wanted and it went to court. Last I heard they were able (after spending a fortune in legal bills) to get off on a technicality as their B&B was too small to fall within the rule the Lesbians were using to make this a case.

Ditto with our local situation where the cake shop had no problem serving gay and Lesbian clients but refused to provide a cake for a homosexual “commitment” ceremony. There was no gay “marriage” in the state. Again they offered to give the couple a cake that they could decorate but they didn’t want to be a part of the ceremony. But of course since the issue was an agenda, not a cake that was refused. I know people say “it’s just a cake” but tell me what wedding DOESNT have a wedding cake, how important the symbolism of sharing the first piece of cake together. It’s not as if this was the person printing the invitations or filling out the little bags of rice. A cake IS an important part of the ceremony and of course the decorating is very personalized and artistic. This poor couple was hounded, harassed, sued, fined and basically put out of business.

Ironically now there is another case where a baker refused to do an anti-gay cake and they are also being sued!

I have yet to hear a rational for not simply taking your business somewhere else. I didn’t get the first baker I wanted for my cake either…but I didn’t sue, I just went somewhere else. These cases are making the gay rights movement look nasty, petty and vindictive.
 
It is irrelevant. If people believe interracial marriage is wrong and refuse services to persons protected by the state then they are in the same boat as you are from a legal perspective.

It is you that does not understand.
This sounds like a good argument against making same sex marriage legal, since it would deny the free exercise of religion to whole classes of people. But religious liberty is protected by the Second Amendment.
 
This sounds like a good argument against making same sex marriage legal, since it would deny the free exercise of religion to whole classes of people. But religious liberty is protected by the Second Amendment.
What was I thinking? Religious liberty is protected by the First amendment!
 
As to your comment the Church doesn’t want “homosexual” priests, in using this term you infer they are ACTIVELY homosexual. The Church accepts candidates who experience SSA as long as they are sincerely focused on remaning celibate just like heterosexual priests who also feel temptations in life.
That is simply not true.

Pope Benedict came out and said very clearly that men with deep seated homosexual tendencies should not be admitted to the priesthood. He didn’t limit that simply to those who acted upon it.

In 2005 the Congregation for Catholic Education put out:

Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders

It was later re-confirmed in 2008 in a letter from Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone (Vatican Secretary of State at the time) to all Bishops (with the approval of Pope Benedict) with further instruction that it applies not only to diocesan seminaries but also to religious orders and congregations and to those located in mission territories.

Note that there are three people who are not to be admitted:

1 - those who practise homosexuality.
2 - present with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.
3 - support the so-called ‘gay culture’.

Point two isn’t a disqualifier only if either point one or three are present. It is a disqualifier in and of itself.

If we use the Catechism as our guide, in addition to what else is said in that document, then we can’t assume those with tendencies are only those who are not chaste or who are struggling with chastity. The catechism uses the same word and is clearly referring to all who experience homosexual attractions. The linked document explains that there is a difference between tendency and acts. If by saying tendency it really meant “acts”, then there would be no need to highlight that there is a difference and that both disqualify one from entering the priesthood.

Now there are some seminaries that ignore this. As much as I don’t personally like the instruction they are wrong to do so. The instruction can be changed but until that happens then seminaries should be refusing such candidates. As many, both diocesan and religious, are.

So, no. The Church does not want homosexual (or ssa affected if you prefer that term) Priests. Not even if they’re chaste.

For clarity: I am not commenting on whether or not this is a good thing. Simply highlighting what the expectation from the Vatican is presently.
 
That is simply not true.

Pope Benedict came out and said very clearly that men with deep seated homosexual tendencies should not be admitted to the priesthood. He didn’t limit that simply to those who acted upon it.

In 2005 the Congregation for Catholic Education put out:

Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders

It was later re-confirmed in 2008 in a letter from Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone (Vatican Secretary of State at the time) to all Bishops (with the approval of Pope Benedict) with further instruction that it applies not only to diocesan seminaries but also to religious orders and congregations and to those located in mission territories.

Note that there are three people who are not to be admitted:

1 - those who practise homosexuality.
2 - present with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.
3 - support the so-called ‘gay culture’.

Point two isn’t a disqualifier only if either point one or three are present. It is a disqualifier in and of itself.

If we use the Catechism as our guide, in addition to what else is said in that document, then we can’t assume those with tendencies are only those who are not chaste or who are struggling with chastity. The catechism uses the same word and is clearly referring to all who experience homosexual attractions. The linked document explains that there is a difference between tendency and acts. If by saying tendency it really meant “acts”, then there would be no need to highlight that there is a difference and that both disqualify one from entering the priesthood.

Now there are some seminaries that ignore this. As much as I don’t personally like the instruction they are wrong to do so. The instruction can be changed but until that happens then seminaries should be refusing such candidates. As many, both diocesan and religious, are.

So, no. The Church does not want homosexual (or ssa affected if you prefer that term) Priests. Not even if they’re chaste.

For clarity: I am not commenting on whether or not this is a good thing. Simply highlighting what the expectation from the Vatican is presently.
Yes. I think the new instruction was needed. It was probably a response to the well documented ‘lavender mafia’ in some seminaries in past decades as well as the scandal of homosexual predation on minors which caused so much grief.
 
That is simply not true.

Pope Benedict came out and said very clearly that men with deep seated homosexual tendencies should not be admitted to the priesthood. He didn’t limit that simply to those who acted upon it.

In 2005 the Congregation for Catholic Education put out:

Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders

It was later re-confirmed in 2008 in a letter from Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone (Vatican Secretary of State at the time) to all Bishops (with the approval of Pope Benedict) with further instruction that it applies not only to diocesan seminaries but also to religious orders and congregations and to those located in mission territories.

Note that there are three people who are not to be admitted:

1 - those who practise homosexuality.
2 - present with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.
3 - support the so-called ‘gay culture’.

Point two isn’t a disqualifier only if either point one or three are present. It is a disqualifier in and of itself.

If we use the Catechism as our guide, in addition to what else is said in that document, then we can’t assume those with tendencies are only those who are not chaste or who are struggling with chastity. The catechism uses the same word and is clearly referring to all who experience homosexual attractions. The linked document explains that there is a difference between tendency and acts. If by saying tendency it really meant “acts”, then there would be no need to highlight that there is a difference and that both disqualify one from entering the priesthood.

Now there are some seminaries that ignore this. As much as I don’t personally like the instruction they are wrong to do so. The instruction can be changed but until that happens then seminaries should be refusing such candidates. As many, both diocesan and religious, are.

So, no. The Church does not want homosexual (or ssa affected if you prefer that term) Priests. Not even if they’re chaste.

For clarity: I am not commenting on whether or not this is a good thing. Simply highlighting what the expectation from the Vatican is presently.
I think we are saying the same thing. As I said if a candidate experiences SSA but demonstrates he is sincere about his commitment to the Church and his vows of celibacy then he would not be dismissed as ineligible. As Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI said DEEP SEATED homosexual (infers active or contemplating being active) tendencies. I firmly believe I have encountered priests who have SSA but I also know priests who have admitted being attracted to women, before and after ordination. One of the best known priests Fr James Martin said he told his Spiritual Director he had fallen in love and was considering leaving the priesthood. Obviously he prayed about it and discerned that his commitment was to the priesthood and that his SD had said that “falling in love” (or lust frankly) was very common.

The issue isn’t so much the orientation but the character of the man, his commitment to the Church and his seriousness about keeping his vows.

Believe me you will not find anyone MORE outspoken in my condemnation of the abusive priests who were MOSTLY homosexuals. Had there been better discernment, better oversight of seminaries, some of which were literally a “gay parade” of debauchery, and a greater understanding of predatory behavior of some this would not have happened.
 
=ChainBreaker;12697071]It is irrelevant. If people believe interracial marriage is wrong and refuse services to persons protected by the state then they are in the same boat as you are from a legal perspective.
Race is not a behavior. That’s the difference. Besides, either we live in free society where people can choose who to do business with or we don’t and the government makes us.
It is you that does not understand.
Oh, but she does!

PS—what do you get out of defending so-called gay “marriage” anyways?
 
=DrTaffy;12697873]Not in your religion, now, maybe. But religious arguments were used against interracial marriage, and many people still hold such beliefs.
You know this is a Catholic Forum. If you have an issue with another religion, take it up with them.
No. Slavery is being forced go work for no pay.
It can be more than just that.
 
You know this is a Catholic Forum. If you have an issue with another religion, take it up with them.

It can be more than just that.
Doggone those Catholics…always spouting that Catholic teaching on a Catholic forum…what are they thinking?

And yes slavery is not necessarily simply working for room and board but being compelled to do something you do not wish to do. That service providers are being compelled to provide services they do not offer that are against their religious beliefs is just shocking. That any administrative authority or court would decide that the right to get a wedding cake from a specific bakery designed a specific way is greater than the right to religious freedom…well God help us if this stands. It is so un American.
 
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