What about Maccabees?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Starfish
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Starfish

Guest
This is probably the wrong forum, but I’m new and not sure where this should go.

Maccabees really bothers me! As I read through, I see that the soldiers that were killed had small idols sewn into their clothing. Since they were “good” soldiers, the idea is/was to pray for them, even though the soldiers turned away from God with their idols.

The idea of purgatory bothers me. In my thinking, it means that the horrible death that Jesus endured for me, was just not enough!

If I am wrong, please tell me. Please don’t yell! I’m just looking for answers.

Thank you.
 
Starfish said:
This is probably the wrong forum, but I’m new and not sure where this should go.

Maccabees really bothers me! As I read through, I see that the soldiers that were killed had small idols sewn into their clothing. Since they were “good” soldiers, the idea is/was to pray for them, even though the soldiers turned away from God with their idols.

The idea of purgatory bothers me. In my thinking, it means that the horrible death that Jesus endured for me, was just not enough!

If I am wrong, please tell me. Please don’t yell! I’m just looking for answers.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
That’s the wrong way to look at what happened on the cross. Christ died to redeem us, but after our redemption we still sin and like all things in Life when we do something bad even if we are sorry we have to suffer the consequences for our wrongs.

That is what purgatory is. Instead of the mislead Protestant doctrine we understand that the atonement was a bridge between us and God. That just because we been redeemed does not mean that the sins we do don’t have consequences for our actions.
 
historyb, thanks for your response.

But what of praying for the dead? Once you are dead, that is it! It’s too late, afterward.

What about the soldiers with the idols sewn into their clothes? What a nasty thing – why should they be given Heaven?
 
Starfish said:
historyb, thanks for your response.

But what of praying for the dead? Once you are dead, that is it! It’s too late, afterward.
Click to expand...
That is a Protestant myth, we can pray for those that have died so that there time in purgatory might be shortened.
Starfish said:
What about the soldiers with the idols sewn into their clothes? What a nasty thing – why should they be given Heaven?
Click to expand...
Why should you? Why should anyone? It doesn’t matter the state of their clothing but the state of their souls, of which only God can know.
 
But they sewed the idols into their clothes for protection. That is idolatry.
 
Starfish said:
But they sewed the idols into their clothes for protection. That is idolatry.
Click to expand...
Have you ever said anything that wasn’t true? On no! That’s being a liar! You ever taken something and were told not to? That’s stealing. You ever wanted something that someone else had? That’s coveting!

If you read the whole account they realized it was and knew that God’s justice was done. You still cannot see their soul, only God determines who is allowed in not you or I or anyone.
 
Starfish said:
historyb, thanks for your response.

But what of praying for the dead? Once you are dead, that is it! It’s too late, afterward.
Click to expand...
You still don’t quite get the idea of purgatory. Think of it as the “cleaning room” of heaven, where you are guaranteed heaven, but where you must learn about (which is embarrassing and therefore “painful”) the things of which you are still “polluted”, which ex-purgates them from you, making you fit for heaven.

While YOU (the dead person) can’t do anything (make any more choices) to help in your salvation (which is not necessary actually as you’re guaranteed heaven at this point), people who are alive CAN help you to “purgate faster”, as it were, by prayer for you.
What about the soldiers with the idols sewn into their clothes? What a nasty thing – why should they be given Heaven?
Click to expand...
It’s always God’s decision as to who goes to heaven. The people who were praying for their dead friends (with the idols in their clothing) had hopes that God would be merciful and forgive them their sins.

To pray that God is merciful to all who have died is a very charitable thing, don’t you agree?

It’s still, as always, up to God to make the final decision, and our job is simply to hope for the best for everyone.
 
Starfish said:
Also, I cannot find anything in the Bible about Purgatory.
Click to expand...
Even St. Paul talks about Puragotry
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
Click to expand...
Code: 
                Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from                      the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the                      propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be                      purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want                      to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there                      were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people.                      God is merciful indeed.
Click to expand...
Remember everything does not have to be in the Bible, it is the Church who defines doctrine through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Faith
 
Starfish said:
This is probably the wrong forum, but I’m new and not sure where this should go.

Maccabees really bothers me! As I read through, I see that the soldiers that were killed had small idols sewn into their clothing. Since they were “good” soldiers, the idea is/was to pray for them, even though the soldiers turned away from God with their idols.

The idea of purgatory bothers me. In my thinking, it means that the horrible death that Jesus endured for me, was just not enough!

If I am wrong, please tell me. Please don’t yell! I’m just looking for answers.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
The soldiers were waring something more along the lines of good luck charms, than actually worshipping idols in place of God.

Christ suffering on the Cross merits us salvation, but we still have to bring forth “fruits worthy of repentence” as the Gospel says (Matt. 3:8). When we have died reconciled to God, but before we can bring forth those fruits, we must go through purgation.

However, since we are all one Body, some members can produce the fruits for the others. This is why St. Paul says he is making up in his own suffering what is lacking in the sufferings of the Body of Christ, the Church (Col. 1:24).

This is what praying for the dead is all about. By our own prayers we produce the fruits they did not have the opportunity to produce.

This is not in addition to what Christ did for us on the Cross, but rather it is the fruit of it.

You are right, once you die that’s it. It’s either Hell, or Heaven, or Heaven via purification. Purgatory is the love of God, like a consuming fire, burning away our impurities like a smith purifying precious metal (as the Scriptures describe God) (Wis. 3:5-6, Mal. 3:2-3).
 
Starfish said:
Also, I cannot find anything in the Bible about Purgatory.
Click to expand...
Matthew 18:26

26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest. 29 And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt.

28 “Pence”… The Roman penny was the eighth part of an ounce, that is, about sevenpence half-penny English.

31 Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers **until **he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
 
We are forgiven for our sins when we confess them/repent, but there is temporal punishment for our sins. Take this example - your son/daughter breaks a neighbor’s window, confesses it to you and the neighbor, and you both say he is forgiven. But then he has to make up for the consequences of the sin, so he cuts the neighbor’s lawn to make up for the cost of replacing it.

MAny people fail to remember that all sin has damaging effect, and that damage must be corrected. That’s what Purgatory is, the Church teaches it’s a “state” (may or may not be a place") where we are totally purified to be with God, if any effects of sin are still with us.

As for Biblical references to Purgatory, read these and ask yourself what they mean:

1 Cor 3:15 - if someone’s work is burned, the person will be saved, but only through fire (but their work is burned). This is the final purification.

1 Peter 3:18-20 - Jesus preaches to the spirits in prison (can’t be Hell, must be in grace of God but not in heaven)

1 John 5:16-17 - distinction made between deadly and non-deadly sins
 
If one has confessed all sin, why would there be need of Purgatory? When the sin(s) have been confessed, God has no memory of that sin.
 
Starfish said:
If one has confessed all sin, why would there be need of Purgatory? When the sin(s) have been confessed, God has no memory of that sin.
Click to expand...
well think of it this way. If you were to break your neighbor’s window, and you go and confess it are you done and forgiven? You maybe forgiven but now you will also need to replace that broken window. Confession is the same. You say you are sorry and than you have to make up for those sins.
 
Starfish said:
If one has confessed all sin, why would there be need of Purgatory? When the sin(s) have been confessed, God has no memory of that sin.
Click to expand...
Don’t take the literally. He is omniscient. He always knows what was, is, and is to come, nor that there is not temporal effects of that sin that justice will require you to rectify–confessing to God doesn’t mean you don’t have to fix the damage your sin caused as St. Lucy explained above–in fact, restoring the damage of your sin is a proper fruit of repentence.

What is meant by what you said, is that your relationship to God is restored, not that you have produced the proper fruits of repentence yet nor that God will not chastise you to bring forth the peaceable fruit of justice (Heb. 12:11).
 
Starfish said:
If one has confessed all sin, why would there be need of Purgatory? When the sin(s) have been confessed, God has no memory of that sin.
Click to expand...
There are consequences to every Sin and when you commit a sin you must pay, weather here are after death. We can not have perfect confession unless we are perfect, which we are far from.
 
Starfish said:
About sin…

All are grievous to God.
Click to expand...
That’s true, but they have different grades of grivousness. That’s why in the OT some warranted death, while some warranted lesser punishments.

Sins that you haven’t confessed yet, but which have not been sins unto death (1 John 5:15-17) still need to be purified from your soul–this is another aspect of purgatory, or final purification–we will still be saved, but through fire (1 Cor. 3:13-15).
 
Starfish said:
About sin…

All are grievous to God.
Click to expand...
There are two kinds of sin. Venial sin and mortal sin.

Venial sin is a less serious sin against the law of God. The sin done is not seriously wrong. It is like say your mom asks you to help with the dishes and you tell her no. But later on you realize how you sinned and was sorry and was willing to say yes next time.

Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God. This sin takes away the life of the soul.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top