What are "demons" accused of doing these days?

[Windfish]

I’d like to see James Randi stay overnight at Bobby Mackey’s Blues Club in Wilder, KY. or the Linda Vista Hospital in Los Angeles and* then* be able to prove that ghosts don’t exist. Good luck to him. As far as exorcisms go they are 100% real and it’s a shame that people don’t believe in them or the fact that demons don’t exist.** They were a big factor in the reason why I came back to the Catholic Church.**

Not pretty experiences, are they?

Incidentally, a lot of secular psychologists have detailed reports on what they saw and what their experiences were at exorcisms. Very interesting stuff. Have you read any?

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Of course the process of performing exorcisms is real. But that does not mean that the demons are real, just like a Uri Geller-type of dishonest magician performing spoon-bending does not mean that there are paranormal forces “out there”.

sounds to me that you have curtains covering your eyes…I for one do believe in demons based upon first-hand experience perhaps you will change your mind one day.

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Not pretty experiences, are they?

Incidentally, a lot of secular psychologists have detailed reports on what they saw and what their experiences were at exorcisms. Very interesting stuff. Have you read any?

what I was referring to was that I “changed sides” in a sense regarding my religious views (a few years ago) and while I returned to the Church I started to meet the “soldiers” of the other team. Obviously they weren’t quite happy of my return into the Church.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I feel very sorry for the so called catholic apologists on this thread. None of them have stepped up to the plate and actually tried to answer your question, and instead broke forum rules in name calling and trying to read minds much like a two bit fortune teller.
I promise you this, if I become a catholic I will surely represent the Church in a much more responsible light than you have seen here so far.
You have questions that make Catholics uncomfortable, and this is painfully obvious.
I am not sure why they are objecting they way that they are when the topic is demons. Yet, if the topic were angels we could go into all sorts of directions.

 

[Windfish]

I feel very sorry for the so called catholic apologists on this thread. None of them have stepped up to the plate and actually tried to answer your question, and instead broke forum rules in name calling and trying to read minds much like a two bit fortune teller.
I promise you this, if I become a catholic I will surely represent the Church in a much more responsible light than you have seen here so far.
You have questions that make Catholics uncomfortable, and this is painfully obvious.
I am not sure why they are objecting they way that they are when the topic is demons. Yet, if the topic were angels we could go into all sorts of directions.

Perhaps you are not familiar with Spock’s history of subtle trolling.

 

[Spock]

They cannot be shown to be false? That is news to me. Werewolves, imps, fairies, etc. do not exist. We have good reasons for their non-existence.

Yes, we do have good reasons to assume that they do not exist. They “may” exist, but there is no good reason to assume that they do. But that is not “proof” that they do not exist.

As for witches, there are women (and men) who call themselves witches. Many of them have claimed to be in touch with the demonic, though I am not asserting that those claims are true. And as for faith healing, this one I will give you. It is hard to prove or disprove. For what it’s worth, my aunt suffered from three tumors on her brain. Thinks were looking pretty dire. She lost a lot of weight and went into depression for several months before telling us. Several nights after my family prayed for her, they all disappeared, as if they were never there. We have all the documentation, and I am considering bringing this case to the Church.

I am glad for her. Of course spontaneous remissions are not unheard of, though they are rare.

So, setting aside that witches DO exist and that faith healing is ambiguous, we are left with werewolves, imps, and fairies, which do not exist. Do I think people that believe in those things are stupid? No. I wouldn’t judge a whole person on that alone. I just think they are false in those particular beliefs. That’s my answer

That is a good answer. I did not mean that those people are “totally” stupid, of course - only in that respect.

What’s with the scare quotes? Your atheism puts you in an interesting position, I think. You have to think I am lying to you, I was hallucinating (lol, I love this explanation), or some other explanation.

No, I would not think that you are lying. Why would I? But being honest about something does not preclude that you can be mistaken.

I was once an atheist. I cannot speak for you, but for me, my disbelief in the supernatural was merely the result of accumulated inertia from an unargued, presumptuous naturalism. Once I saw that, the resistance melted away, and I was able to look at things from a more rational perspective.

Funny. My road was the exact opposite. I was raised a believer, and for quite a long time I did not question my belief. Once I started to do that, I realized that the supernatural assumption is without merit.

 

[Spock]

Perhaps you are not familiar with Spock’s history of subtle trolling.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I find it insulting. Not that it matters either way. But let me remind you the good advice: “don’t feed the trolls”.

 

[tbcrawford]

Assuming the reality of demoniac possession, for which the authority of Christ is pledged, it is to be observed that Jesus appealed to His power over demons as one of the recognised signs of Messiahship (Matthew 12:23, 28; Luke 11:20). He cast out demons, He declared, by the finger or spirit of God, not, as His adversaries alleged, by collusion with the prince of demons (Matthew 12:24, 27; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15, 19); and that He exercised no mere delegated power, but a personal authority that was properly His own, is clear from the direct and imperative way in which He commands the demon to depart (Mark 9:24; cf. 1:25 etc.): “He cast out the spirits with his word, and he healed all that were sick” (Matthew 8:16). Sometimes, as with the daughter of the Canaanean woman, the exorcism took place from a distance (Matthew 15:22 sqq.; Mark 7:25). Sometimes again the spirits expelled were allowed to express their recognition of Jesus as “the Holy One of God” (Mark 1:24) and to complain that He had come to torment them “before the time”, i.e the time of their punishment (Matthew 8:29 sqq; Luke 8:28 sqq.). If demoniac possession was generally accompanied by some disease, yet the two were not confounded by Christ, or the Evangelists. In Luke 13:32, for example, the Master Himself expressly distinguishes between the expulsion of evil spirits and the curing of disease.

 

[tbcrawford]

Christ also empowered the Apostles and Disciples to cast out demons in His name while He Himself was still on earth (Matthew 10:1 and 8; Mark 6:7; Luke 9:1; 10:17), and to believers generally He promised the same power (Mark 16:17). But the efficacy of this delegated power was conditional, as we see from the fact that the Apostles themselves were not always successful in their exorcisms: certain kinds of spirits, as Christ explained, could only be cast out by prayer and fasting (Matthew 17:15, 20; Mark 9:27-28; Luke 9:40). In other words the success of exorcism by Christians, in Christ’s name, is subject to the same general conditions on which both the efficacy of prayer and the use of charismatic power depend. Yet conspicuous success was promised (Mark 16:17). St. Paul (Acts 16:18; 19:12), and, no doubt, the other Apostles and Disciples, made use of regularly, as occasion arose, of their exorcising power, and the Church has continued to do so uninterruptedly to the present day.

Baptismal exorcism
At an early age the practice was introduced into the Church of exorcising catechumens as a preparation for the Sacrament of Baptism. This did not imply that they were considered to be obsessed, like demoniacs, but merely that they were, in consequence of original sin (and of personal sins in case of adults), subject more or less to the power of the devil, whose “works” or “pomps” they were called upon to renounce, and from whose dominion the grace of baptism was about to deliver them.

From the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

www.newadvent.org › Catholic Encyclopedia

Only Catholic priests who are both legally and morally ordained and are faithful to the teachings of Sacred Scripture, as validly understood through the legitimate moral authority of the Church, and who remain spiritually sound should attempt an exorcism. Devils are powerful beings and can be extremely harmful to the unqualified. Instead; Praying the Exorcism Prayer is encouraged.
Preliminary actions for those recognizing satanic activity in relation to themselves:
Immediately reject any and all types of unnatural insights whether they occur in a dream or while in a waking state. Such insights commonly originate in the occult and are of satanic origin. Such insights may refer to a past, present of future event. They are intended to seem worthy with resultant enhancement of self-esteem. Eventually the evil spirits giving these insights, feelings, or seeing of auroras will seek full control over a captivated persons being. Such possessions or manifestations frequently occur to those who have used or participated in the following:
Ouija boards, Seances, Magic 8 balls, Palm reading (even as a game), Tea leaf reading, Fortune telling, Potions, Incantations, Yoga (even as exercise), Martial Arts (in most cases), Dungeons and Dragons, Harry Potter Books, Eastern Mysticism, Tarrot Cards, etc.
When one begins honestly trying to live the Christian life, one MUST break with all Satanic influences that one has accepted in one’s life. This would include all organized occultic behavior. Many of these things are presented as games or midway attractions at a county fair, but they’re actually portals of access for the attack of one or devils. It may have been years since one was involved but until it is recognized as sin, confessed, and absolved with proper penance, the doors remain open for Satan’s entry.
Many people never know that the games they were involved with as children are mortal sins that will send them to hell without proper repentance.
It is not enough to say that you never did it yourself. To be aware that any of these things are being done and not to say something against it is to give tacit approval by your presence. Such failure jeopardizes your own soul.
Avoid other conditions and associations that breed satanic influence concerning one’s spiritual life:

Catholic World News – January 1999
VATICAN RELEASES NEW RITE FOR EXORCISM

VATICAN (CWNews.com) – The Devil exists. That unpopular reality is brought into sharp focus by the promulgation of a new rite of exorcism for the Catholic Church.

De Exorcismus et supplicationibus quibusdam, approved by Pope John Paul II on October 1, 1998, was formally released by the Vatican on January 26. The document sets out a new and precise liturgical form for the rite of exorcism. The 84-page form, introduced by the Congregation Divine Worship, was published entirely in Latin; the episcopal conferences of different nations may now prepare their own versions in the vernacular languages.

This new Vatican document clearly recognizes both the existence of the Devil and the reality of diabolical possession. In a short introduction, the document calls attention to the existence of both “angelic creatures” and others “called demons, who are opposed to God.” Since the influence of the demonic can become apparent in people, places, or things, the document continues, the Church “has prayed, and continues to pray, that men will be freed from the snares of the Devil.”

Hope some of this clarifies things for you

Hi Strawberry, I did try to do my best when he first started the thread.

I hope you have a very Happy Christmas my friend x

 

[rel1]

My goodness, it’s a *DARK *world you live in.
Nonetheless you’re entitled to your beliefs. And that’s what I’m seeing here, beliefs without substance.
I mean sure, it’s very clear that there are sad individuals that focus on money as their god and even do so under the guise of religion. These are the exception to the rule, however; the “wolves in sheep’s clothing” that Jesus warns us about in Matt 7:15.

Considering one of the principal tenet of Catholicism is care of the poor,
newadvent.org/cathen/12236a.htm
I find it a bit difficult to swallow your lumping of so many disparate ideas under one overarching umbrella of money driven motivation. As I said, you’re welcome to your theory, but it paints a bleak picture of humanity indeed.

Ignorance is bliss! I’m definitely short on substance but I’m not sure what you were looking for from reading the 2 cents that I contributed. Tell me and I’ll be more than happy to discuss any issues of faith with you. It appears that you agree with me, to some extent, so I’m not sure what you mean by living in a dark world.
As far as charity…Remember that people give to the poor. Money does not fly down from the sky into the churchs coffers. It comes from the people that support the church and the charities it designates.
I’m a true believer of supporting those who are less fortunate and I feel that we need to do much more as Christians.

Have a Merry Christmas!

 

[rel1]

Wow. How easy it is to pull unreferenced “facts” out of the air. Your assumptions are to such a degree as to be astounding. All people for all times including most people before this time … until “Spock” and a few special elite are gullible idiots. When I think of the brilliant minds, including Einstein, that you resign to idiocy, it; well just blows me away.

I’m very familiar with Randi’s challenge.
Are you familiar with Randi’s agenda?
Have you personally perused all the documentation that has been submitted to him?
Do you understand what is required to “prove” supernatural activity?
Supernatural activity is not a side-show that sends out fliers telling us where the next “happening” is going to take place in order that we can set up all our equipment and document every moment of what is taking place. Even if we could or did, all Randi has to say is: this could have been faked. Please try to think of a scenario in THIS day and age that couldn’t be faked. If you thought of one, you’re deluded and ignorant.

Rel1 is with you Spock. Hang in there!

It’s fascinating that you have such keen insight into the minds of those who don’t step forward. I’m curious as to how you are able to accomplish said feat. Hmm… is it ESP? Better call Randi and see if he’ll for over his money.

Gee. Did it ever occur to you that by bringing a private thing like an exorcism or healing or anything else to Randi’s door makes them subject to his authority? It is not for Randi or anyone else to judge what God allows. Besides the Church is not in the business of proving the supernatural. It was not until very recently that this religion of non-religion even came into being.

Randi’s lack of “test” results only proves something to the truly gullible and the incredibly ignorant. Think *OUTSIDE *the box. Spock. Don’t be afraid to use your own mind instead of parroting mainstream rhetoric. You’ll be surprised to learn that the world is a MUCH bigger place than you ever imagined.

Judging, by the fact that you patently ignore all my good points and pick one that affords you an opportunity to soapbox… I’m not holdin’ my breath for you bud.

 

[rel1]

rel1:
Is the BOTTOM LINE…Demons do exist or don’t? What is the consensus in this thread? I’ve never encountered any demons that I’m aware of but suppose they can exist for those that want to believe in them…

 

[CB_Catholic]

What are “demons” doing these days? Busily convincing people they don’t exist. Most effective tactic they have to draw people away from God.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

 

[Spock]

They’re still around. You may be well within their clutches yourself. They are not likely to show themselves to you, lest you become frightened and run to the Church.

Not likely. Even if I did believe in God, I would never believe in the devil, and since the Church asserts that there is one (or many?), it is not a likely prospect that I would turn to it for consolation. So they can manifest themselves at their leisure. My open house invitation also includes them, just as it includes God. Especially if they pay me a visit together. Now that would be fun company. Too bad both of them are so shy and bashful.

If you want to experience evidence of their existence, try living according to the Gospel. Demons hate to lose a soul that they thought was theirs.

I have no idea what you mean, and how do you know about my lifestyle. Apart from the worship part, I live my life pretty much as Christians do. Many a times I was “accused” (tongue-in-cheek usage of the word) to be an exemplary Christian. When I came “clean”, there was some very serious astonishment.

Here’s a story, one of many …

Stories like that carry no weight.

If you do not wish to believe, do so on your own recognizance. I may be the last person in your life who will tell you in no uncertain terms about this metaphysical reality.

Well, I did not wet my pants, no matter how scary this warning was meant to be.

 

[Spock]

What are “demons” doing these days? Busily convincing people they don’t exist. Most effective tactic they have to draw people away from God.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

How funny! Timotheos just said that they hide, because if they would show their face, people would run to the Church. You guys fight it out.

 

[cassini]

Catholic World News – January 1999
VATICAN RELEASES NEW RITE FOR EXORCISM

VATICAN (CWNews.com) – The Devil exists. That unpopular reality is brought into sharp focus by the promulgation of a new rite of exorcism for the Catholic Church.

De Exorcismus et supplicationibus quibusdam, approved by Pope John Paul II on October 1, 1998, was formally released by the Vatican on January 26. The document sets out a new and precise liturgical form for the rite of exorcism. The 84-page form, introduced by the Congregation Divine Worship, was published entirely in Latin; the episcopal conferences of different nations may now prepare their own versions in the vernacular languages.

This new Vatican document clearly recognizes both the existence of the Devil and the reality of diabolical possession. In a short introduction, the document calls attention to the existence of both “angelic creatures” and others “called demons, who are opposed to God.” Since the influence of the demonic can become apparent in people, places, or things, the document continues, the Church “has prayed, and continues to pray, that men will be freed from the snares of the Devil.”

Hope some of this clarifies things for you

I support you on many things you say above tbcrawford, but could ask WHY DID ROME FEEL THE NEED TO RELEASE NEW RITE FOR EXORCISM?

What was wrong with the old one?

Do you know the traditional rite for baptism included an exorcism of the Child? Did you know that was abandoned after Vatican II? WHY? Did the devils do a deal with the Vatican on babies? That is why I wonder about the new rite, does it work as good as the old one? Why did they have to CHANGE everything? Was the old Catholicism not good enough for them?

 

[tbcrawford]

I support you on many things you say above tbcrawford, but could ask WHY DID ROME FEEL THE NEED TO RELEASE NEW RITE FOR EXORCISM?

What was wrong with the old one?

Do you know the traditional rite for baptism included an exorcism of the Child? Did you know that was abandoned after Vatican II? WHY? Did the devils do a deal with the Vatican on babies? That is why I wonder about the new rite, does it work as good as the old one? Why did they have to CHANGE everything? Was the old Catholicism not good enough for them?

I agree with you cassini and I do not understand why there was a need for change.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Is the BOTTOM LINE…Demons do exist or don’t? What is the consensus in this thread? I’ve never encountered any demons that I’m aware of but suppose they can exist for those that want to believe in them…

We don’t make things exist by believing in them.

Yes. I can personally confirm that demons most definitely DO exist. Considering I was quite certain that they did NOT when I fell into this remarkable discovery; I really don’t expect anyone to take my word on it. However, just to clear the air; my BS is in Computer Science. I have an extensive background in Systems Design. I would MUCH prefer to explain things in a natural way. In other words NO I do not “want them to exist”. My husband has a triple Major BS from Vanderbilt: Math, Computer Science and Electrical Engineering. We are VERY rational people who don’t scare easily.

For example, when the window rolled down by itself in the car recently as my husband was approaching it; he was able to take the door apart and find a faulty switch. However, when our crucifixes turn themselves around or disappear entirely, we are much more hard pressed to find an explanation. We have VERY large dogs; new locks and our children are all under 5. We recently put together 8+ pages of thorough documentation about the events we have experienced so far only to share with the Archbishop and his specialist… Many independent people have, without being told anything about the house, had issues to report, themselves. We have video documentation and pictures.

I will not share. This is our cross to bear. It is NOT a side-show for all those demon-freaks who get their kicks out of watching this stuff.

If I seem obtuse in my previous posts it is because I thoroughly understand and appreciate the belief that demons don’t exist. I am not too proud to admit I have been a fool in many ways.

“Spock” may be an antagonistic “troll” (this is not name calling - it is a clearly defined term that fits this kind of behavior perfectly), but I like him. He’s not afraid to throw his ideas out there for the world to remark upon. Unfortunately, his mind is in “closed” mode right now. It’s a stage in the growth process. Hopefully he won’t die there. It reminds me of something a black friend once shared with me. He said he much preferred interacting with whites in the South because at least there he knew where he stood. They don’t hide their prejudice. Now, Spock doesn’t hide his contempt or his arrogance. If you missed that, then I suggest you re-read the posts.

StrawberryJam - People get frustrated when the person in question patently ignores sound responses and instead “trolls” for inflammatory material. Please note that I soundly refuted every one of Spock’s arguments yet he chooses to engage with those who are actually bothered by what he says.

Again; it REALLY doesn’t matter what people think. Spock or anyone can say the sky is green and the grass is blue all day and all night, it doesn’t make it so. People are welcome to believe that demons don’t exist, but they do so at their own peril.

And rel1, the “darkness” I refer to in your post is from your statement that religion is money based and money driven. If that is not what you meant, I suggest you clarify what you wrote. Catholicism is God based. Check out this short, but enlightening exchange: askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2009_09SEPT/2009SeptWhyNotGive_It_AllToThePoor.cfm . If you have not seen all of the good that Catholics and most Christians have done and are currently doing in the world, then 1. You need to get out more and 2. you need to do your own research instead of accepting what you are spoon fed from the media and in school and likely by your friends who are just parroting popular thinking anyway. (Broad generalization here - and remembering back to my circles of friends - not passing specific judgment).

BTW - The good thing about being actively attacked by demons is you get see how actively God works in our lives. I mean if you have a demon in your room trying to suffocate you, you begin to pray a St. Michael with your husband’s help, almost instantly you hear a scream fleeing down your hallway; well… let’s just say, that MAKES you see the world in a very different way.

 

[InspiritCarol]

How funny! Timotheos just said that they hide, because if they would show their face, people would run to the Church. You guys fight it out.

Umm. They agree. They said the exact same thing in a different way…

What you just said makes NO sense. (In a pleasantly succinct fashion I might add).

 

[InspiritCarol]

Money does not fly down from the sky into the churchs coffers. It comes from the people that support the church and the charities it designates.

Yes, but it is through the direction of the church that those monies are redistributed in the most effective way. Seeing as how poorly our government handles our tax money, it’s really quite miraculous that so much of what is donated gets to where it needs to go. I was bookkeeper of our parish for 4 years, so I have first hand experience in witnessing this.

BTW: We also shouldn’t be so quick to label things “incredibly, idiotic inventions of a sick mind”; or other such pejoratives. I’m sorry it seems that way to you. Perhaps you could pray for more charity toward your fellow man. (Meeee toooo!)

I’m a true believer of supporting those who are less fortunate and I feel that we need to do much more as Christians.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Amen, brother. And a Merry Christmas to you also!