What are the reasons I should (or shouldn't) become Catholic?

[AgnosTheist]

But if you truly are an agnostic/atheist be careful.

Agnostic Theist. I believe in God. I dont have religion but I have faith in the Divine.

I’m confused. Which is the real you? Agnos the Christian critic/cynic of your previous posts or Agnos the Catholic sympathizer of this post?

Both. I know its difficult to understand. I rarely criticize the bible, only on discussions such as these. The way I see it, its like believing in Santa Claus, you know its not real but you encourage your kids to believe in him anyway because its a lot of fun. I also cherish the arts & culture that came out of the christian tradition. It would be too bad to lose it. Christians are also good partners in combatting the threat of Islam.

In other words, it’s easier to destroy than to build up.

I defend christianity more than I criticize it, usually from anyone who has an irrational hatred for it.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Many police officers and soldiers have been exonerated for killing children who were pointing loaded guns at them - those children were not morally culpable of their actions, but at the same time, we don’t say, “You are only allowed to defend yourself if your attacker has reached the age of accountability.”

In Palestine those “Children” are 14 to 17 year old thugs.

 

[Contarini]

Thats a little too deep for me, are you trying to say that each section of the bible has to be seen/interpreted according to the context of the culture of the time it occured? Like in the time of Moses it was common to kill someone who took out your eyes?

Well, obviously one part of it is that you don’t automatically take everything to be an eternal prescription directly applicable to you. But primarily it means that if, for instance, the story of Jonah looks like a story making a moral point, then maybe that’s what it is–maybe it is not even claiming that Jonah was literally swallowed by a whale (or, far more problematically from my perspective, that the people of Nineveh did once repent of their vicious imperialistic ways).

Ooooh now I remember! In plain words the bible is perfect only in matters of salvation! So all of those little imperfections that has nothing to do with the message of salvation should be okay. Well thats pure faith. Did not work for me, for how can you trust the message when you know there have been some problems with the text itself.

I see no logical connection here. I think the problem is that you have been poisoned by an untenably literalistic understanding, and you can’t get beyond it. Why would I expect God to prevent all “problems” if it wasn’t necessary for the message to get through? Why shouldn’t God reveal Himself through a book that is, on one level, a product of human culture and imagination with all that that normally implies? I think you are starting out with an assumption about what the Bible should be like, but I haven’t heard you defend that assumption.

You know, I only heard about that doctrine around 5 years ago after bible criticisms became popular online. It was never mentioned in Catholic school back in the 80s.

Well, I can’t speak to what your particular school taught or didn’t teach in the 80s, but in the first place bible criticisms have been popular online for way more than five years; in the second place what Catholic schools and other organs of the Church teach is not dependent on what is online; in the third place you by necessity only went to one school at a time (unless you have supernatural abilities you have not shared with us, or have gotten a hold of Hermione Granger’s Time Turner); and in the fourth place I’m pretty sure that Catholic catechesis has by and large gotten more conservative in the past few years, not less (thanks in large measure to Catholic Answers and similar organizations). Obviously the texts of Vatican II have been around for 40 years, and judging from your remark about when you were in Catholic school they are probably older than you are.

Edwin

 

[AgnosTheist]

Well, obviously one part of it is that you don’t automatically take everything to be an eternal prescription directly applicable to you. But primarily it means that if, for instance, the story of Jonah looks like a story making a moral point, then maybe that’s what it is–maybe it is not even claiming that Jonah was literally swallowed by a whale (or, far more problematically from my perspective, that the people of Nineveh did once repent of their vicious imperialistic ways).

ok. So of what genre is the Amalekite massacre, do you think?

I see no logical connection here. I think the problem is that you have been poisoned by an untenably literalistic understanding,

hey ‘poison’ is a very strong word.

Why would I expect God to prevent all “problems” if it wasn’t necessary for the message to get through?

But it is necessary. If some parts of the text appear corrupted, how can I be certain that the message I am getting isnt corrupted as well?

Why shouldn’t God reveal Himself through a book that is, on one level, a product of human culture and imagination with all that that normally implies?

normally implies? as in mistakes? the trial & error of human culture & imagination?

I think you are starting out with an assumption about what the Bible should be like, but I haven’t heard you defend that assumption.

It should at least be free from literal errors & contradictions. As a bonus, I wish its just as simple as the koran- direct to the point. Not something that authors confusion that you would have to rely on a dictatorial clergy like the Vatican to prevent the fragmentation of the brotherhood.

Can you explain why the current state of the bible makes more sense than my ‘assumptions’.

 

[po18guy]

**Sacrifice offered once **
“For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself” (Heb. 7:26-27).
“So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him” (Heb. 9:28).
“By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all, 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:10-11).
Sacrifice repetition of no value
“For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near” (Heb. 10:1).
“And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins” (Heb. 10:11).

Please allow some teaching here: Christ, the one, eternal sacrifice, is outside of time, as God Himself is outside of time. Knowing this, you may now grasp the concept that the sacrifice, once it was accomplished, exists continuously throught eternity. Thus, what Catholic priests and Bishops do is to make the eternal sacrifice PRESENT to us. It is NOT a repetitive sacrifice. You have been mislead.

The Scripture speaks of Levites-Judaic Priests, NOT Christian! Please read scripture IN CONTEXT.

Are you willing to dialog, or just repeat Biblical sound bites all taken out of context? Scripture is a mosaic picture, to be taken in its totality. When you pick and choose pieces that seem to fit, you must consider the context in which they were written. Each scriptural teaching had a particular audience and purpose. Don’t mix them up.

If you are seeking honest dialog, then please engage us. Don’t fall into the pit of those who come on here to set the rest of the world straight. We have bibles, too. We read them.

Now, let’s roll.

 

[qui_est_ce]

If some parts of the text appear corrupted, how can I be certain that the message I am getting isnt corrupted as well?

NONE of the texts of the Bible are corrupted, you just don’t understand them so you think they’re corrupted. We’re talking about the Divine here, so much bigger than our dinky little brains can fathom

It should at least be free from literal errors & contradictions.

Why? The writers were not writing history, they were telling a story. The story of the growing faith as God was revealing Himself.

Can you explain why the current state of the bible makes more sense than my ‘assumptions’.

No I can’t because you are a fallable human being and you are making assumptions about what God should be, based on your itty bitty little fallable brain.

You should stop talking and start listening. Let God tell you who He is, don’t tell God who He is. It works

 

[qui_est_ce]

.

Are you willing to dialog, or just repeat Biblical sound bites all taken out of context? Scripture is a mosaic picture, to be taken in its totality. When you pick and choose pieces that seem to fit, you must consider the context in which they were written. Each scriptural teaching had a particular audience and purpose. Don’t mix them up.

If you are seeking honest dialog, then please engage us. Don’t fall into the pit of those who come on here to set the rest of the world straight. We have bibles, too. We read them.

Now, let’s roll.

Great reply,

 

[AgnosTheist]

NONE of the texts of the Bible are corrupted, you just don’t understand them so you think they’re corrupted. We’re talking about the Divine here, so much bigger than our dinky little brains can fathom

Thats a very convenient excuse.

No I can’t because you are a fallable human being and you are making assumptions about what God should be, based on your itty bitty little fallable brain.

hey at least i use my brain. I’m just being the Thomas type…no proof no deal.

You should stop talking and start listening. Let God tell you who He is, don’t tell God who He is. It works

If God doesnt like the way I think, I wanna hear it from him, not from you, and not from some obscure book whose authorship i cant even tell for sure.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I think the problem is that you have been poisoned by an untenably literalistic understanding, and you can’t get beyond it.

but in the first place bible criticisms have been popular online for way more than five years; in the second place what Catholic schools and other organs of the Church teach is not dependent on what is online; in the third place you by necessity only went to one school at a time (unless you have supernatural abilities you have not shared with us, or have gotten a hold of Hermione Granger’s Time Turner); and in the fourth place I’m pretty sure that Catholic catechesis has by and large gotten more conservative in the past few years, not less (thanks in large measure to Catholic Answers and similar organizations). Obviously the texts of Vatican II have been around for 40 years, and judging from your remark about when you were in Catholic school they are probably older than you are.

Edwin

It was a sad day for Protestantism when Contarini became a Catholic Apologist

 

[AgnosTheist]

It was a sad day for Protestantism when Contarini became a Catholic Apologist

I wonder why he aint Catholic yet.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Thats a very convenient excuse.

You think it is an excuse. I stated it as fact.

hey at least i use my brain. I’m just being the Thomas type…no proof no deal.

But not for the greater glory of God, as it was intended.

If God doest like the way I think, I wanna hear it from him, not from you, or from some obscure book whose authorship nobody can even tell for sure.

Good, then this discussion is over. Start listening.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Good, then this discussion is over. Start listening.

Alright, here goes…

Agnos to God!

Agnos to God!

Are you there?

Im listening!

hmmm nothing…

maybe im tuning in to the wrong frequency.

lets see…squeeek…squeeek…

still nothing. must be on vacation or something. i will just leave a voice mail.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I wonder why he aint Catholic yet.

He will be soon. Probably ST class of 2008 or 2009. He’s just going to have to get over going through RCIA to be Confirmed in the CC. :bigyikes:

BTW, Agnos, don’t you think the whole deal with the human brain is unfathomnable? How did your brain get to be what it is, how do your thoughts happen. How did you become you?
(you like that little shrug guy, don’t you)?

 

[po18guy]

Alright, here goes…

Agnos to God!

Agnos to God!

Are you there?

Im listening!

hmmm nothing…

maybe im tuning in to the wrong frequency.

lets see…squeeek…squeeek…

still nothing. must be on vacation or something. i will just leave a voice mail.

Agnos, you must have a HEART, because God speaks to hearts.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Alright, here goes…

Agnos to God!

Agnos to God!

Are you there?

Im listening!

hmmm nothing…

maybe im tuning in to the wrong frequency.

lets see…squeeek…squeeek…

still nothing. must be on vacation or something. i will just leave a voice mail.

You’re still not listening…He already answered you, but you were too busy talking to His vm when you could have been talking to Him directly.

 

[AgnosTheist]

BTW, Agnos, don’t you think the whole deal with the human brain is unfathomnable? How did your brain get to be what it is, how do your thoughts happen. How did you become you?

what do you mean?

(you like that little shrug guy, don’t you)?

Being agnostic makes me an expert in admitting what i dont know.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Being agnostic makes me an expert in admitting what i dont know.

How does your brain make thoughts? Where do they come from?

 

[AgnosTheist]

How does your brain make thoughts? Where do they come from?

its still a big mystery for me. i know much about the rest of the anatomy, i know a couple of stuff in psychology, but the actual thought process…

 

[qui_est_ce]

its still a big mystery for me. i know much about the rest of the anatomy, i know a couple of stuff in psychology, but the actual thought process…

See, you’re not listening. You’re answering my stupid questions that nobody can answer.

 

[AgnosTheist]

me and my loud mouth. ok i’m shutting up now. just listening.