What are the reasons I should (or shouldn't) become Catholic?

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Your religion is anti-religion. *

you cant even prove how a single one-liner belief qualifies as a religion.

If you care not to see how that works, that’s your problem. Your requirements for “proof” are pathologically perverse

You just see what you want to see. You have made up your mind and there is no way you would understand another person whose beliefs differs from yours. Bigotry.

I understand you entirely. You understand me relatively well. We simply disagree on a few things, and my not giving in to you you call “Bigotry”.

Your god tells you that you are right, and that those who disagree with you need to be forced to agree with you.

My God tells me that it’s alright to agree to disagree about things, but that it is necessary to try to help those who disagree with the truth do themselves (and others) damage, and should be informed of what they lack.

For me thats a mighty good reason why one shouldnt become a catholic (or any other monotheistic organized religion for that matter). Though catholics can be very nice people, they can also be be very annoyingly narrow minded when it comes to things religious.

You will find that your religion will force you into a painful choice, as per that description a bit further back in the thread.

When that happens, home and Father is lovingly waiting.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[BrewMax]

It remains God’s church, founded by Christ. I was called to it, and decided, just as love is a decision, to remain obedient. All other Christian churches have splintered away, losing one thing or another (sometimes many things) in the process. As Bishop Sheen said, “Do not join the perfect church, because you will ruin it”.

Does the church need work? Yes! That is why you are here, interacting with us. There is nothing to gain from leaving, only from joining together in the one Body of Christ.

Christ’s peace.

I’m terribly sorry if I offended anyone. I just thought that we shouldn’t be threatening hell upon folks if they don’t share our exact beiefs. Doesn’t sound Christianlike to me. That’s all I was saying, I didn’t mean to offend.

 

[Janet_S]

Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. As he piles doctrine on doctrine and conclusion on conclusion in the formation of some tremendous scheme of philosophy and religion, he is, in the only legitimate sense of which the expression is capable, becoming more and more human. When he drops one doctrine after another in a refined scepticism, when he declines to tie himself to a system, when he says that he has outgrown definitions, when he says that he disbelieves in finality, when, in his own imagination, he sits as God, holding no form of creed but contemplating all, then he is by that very process sinking slowly backwards into the vagueness of the vagrant animals and the unconsciousness of the grass. Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded.

I can imagine thats how christians found it worthwhile to burn alleged witches, heretics & infidels on the stake. By mindlessly agreeing together with a religious rationalization that reduces a fellow human being into “vagrant animals”.

Shame on you both.

I don’t think that was Chesterton’s point. It would be nice if you would comment on the quote itself, the point of which is the irony that the medieval man (who made dogmas and believed in truth) is viewed as “backward” by the modern man yet the medieval man is actually more advanced (more human) that the modern man who prides himself on his “tolerance” to any and all ideas and his denial of objective truth. And why is that? Because the modern man who claims to accept everything really accepts nothing.

Did you miss his point? I’m guessing you did else why would you totally switch gears and pull out the familiar but totally unrelated topic of Catholics burning heretics at the stake. I guess you had nothing to add to the discussion. Too bad.

(Oh, and BTW, sorry for calling you a turnip.)

 

[po18guy]

I’m terribly sorry if I offended anyone. I just thought that we shouldn’t be threatening hell upon folks if they don’t share our exact beiefs. Doesn’t sound Christianlike to me. That’s all I was saying, I didn’t mean to offend.

No offense taken here! I was just wondering a little about your point of view, and what brought you here. As far as hell goes, we all risk it, that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But, Jesus decides on that one. I struggle to be something that He will not be shamed of.

Where are you coming from, church-wise? Only reason to ask is so we have some idea of your views and beliefs. We’re not just nosy. Well, some of us are, but they are blushing right now.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet S
Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. As he piles doctrine on doctrine and conclusion on conclusion in the formation of some tremendous scheme of philosophy and religion, he is, in the only legitimate sense of which the expression is capable, becoming more and more human. When he drops one doctrine after another in a refined scepticism, when he declines to tie himself to a system, when he says that he has outgrown definitions, when he says that he disbelieves in finality, when, in his own imagination, he sits as God, holding no form of creed but contemplating all, then he is by that very process sinking slowly backwards into the vagueness of the vagrant animals and the unconsciousness of the grass. Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded.

OH,… that’s some GOOD stuff…!! Woof…!

I can imagine thats how christians found it worthwhile to burn alleged witches, heretics & infidels on the stake. By mindlessly agreeing together with a religious rationalization that reduces a fellow human being into “vagrant animals”.

Shame on you both.

Let’s see, you misunderstand these words (things):

Dogma
The Church
People as sinners
Mindlessness
Rationalization
How being without God MAKES YOU a “vagrant animal”

You are spouting invective at misidentified targets.

“You hate Papa because he is an evil man who does evil and who manipulates people into doing evil, especially by harming the innocent, and should be destroyed for his evil.”

That is your “philosophy” of religion.

You will see nothing else, because of your history. That is your right. It is also your error, and will serve you very badly, and cause you no end of pain.

Best to 'ya.

 

[Delraek]

lets see…
You know, you talk like as if you are God. Can you read my mind like Jesus?

Wow! If you believe Jesus can read your mind, He must be God! But that would make you a … Christian?

Couldn’t help myself!

 

[BrewMax]

No offense taken here! I was just wondering a little about your point of view, and what brought you here. As far as hell goes, we all risk it, that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But, Jesus decides on that one. I struggle to be something that He will not be shamed of.

Where are you coming from, church-wise? Only reason to ask is so we have some idea of your views and beliefs. We’re not just nosy. Well, some of us are, but they are blushing right now.

I guess I don’t understand risking hell. Jesus saved me from that when he died on the cross. I have the joy of Christ in my life, I don’t tremble and fear for my salvation. Sounds like maybe you need some Biblical reassurance my friend. If your priest told you this or someone else in the church, then shame on them!! The Bible is what you have to go by, not people’s opinions.

 

[geezerbob]

I guess I don’t understand risking hell. Jesus saved me from that when he died on the cross. I have the joy of Christ in my life, I don’t tremble and fear for my salvation. Sounds like maybe you need some Biblical reassurance my friend. If your priest told you this or someone else in the church, then shame on them!! The Bible is what you have to go by, not people’s opinions.

No, and no offense intended, but is sounds as if you should read the rest of the Bible. What he said about working out his salvation with fear and trembling is straight from St. Paul. The problem with using the Bible as your sole authority is that you don’t know whose interpretation to go by, and your interpretation is obviously different from mine. Now, how do you establish your authority to say that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and mine is wrong?

 

[Janet_S]

I guess I don’t understand risking hell. Jesus saved me from that when he died on the cross. I have the joy of Christ in my life, I don’t tremble and fear for my salvation. Sounds like maybe you need some Biblical reassurance my friend. If your priest told you this or someone else in the church, then shame on them!! The Bible is what you have to go by, not people’s opinions.

You’re going by people’s opinions too, but don’t seem to be aware of it. You’re being taught Protestant theology first, then led to the Bible for verses to support their theology.

Do you believe “once saved, always saved” (OSAS)? It sounds like you do from what you wrote. If you do believe it, I have no doubt it was because some well-intentioned but misguided Protestant taught you this, then took you down the “Roman Road to Salvation.”

There are some problems with the Roman Road, though. We Catholics agree that the “Roman Road” is based on Scripture, but it is Scripture taken out of context for the purpose of trying to get Scripture to say something that it does not say. Did you ever wonder why is it such a crooked road? First you go to Romans 6:23, then detour to 5:8, then take a hairpin curve to 10:13 and 10:9-10? I guess Protestants disagree with Paul about the order these verses should have been written.

(As an aside, I’ve often thought Catholics should come up with a similar “Road to Rome,” first Matthew 16, then John 6, etc, etc. I might sit down and do that some day. I’ll PM you when I work out the details.)

Anyway, one thing I am sure of is that no one who independently reads the Bible on his own, without the aid of Protestant tradition, will come to believe the doctrine of OSAS. It’s impossible, especially when you come to the synoptic Gospels, particulary Matthew 5-8. Jesus never taught this. Shame on the people who are teaching it to you.

 

[richardwy]

Truth, this life, and eternity are the 3 reasons to become Catholic.

 

[Janet_S]

Truth, this life, and eternity are the 3 reasons to become Catholic.

As they say on Family Feud, Good answer!

 

[jmcrae]

Truth, this life, and eternity are the 3 reasons to become Catholic.

Can we git a AAAAYYY MENNN ovah here!!!

 

[BrewMax]

No, and no offense intended, but is sounds as if you should read the rest of the Bible. What he said about working out his salvation with fear and trembling is straight from St. Paul. The problem with using the Bible as your sole authority is that you don’t know whose interpretation to go by, and your interpretation is obviously different from mine. Now, how do you establish your authority to say that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and mine is wrong?

Didn’t Paul preach to Timothy about reading and studying Scripture? I never took that as not trusting yourself enough to know God’s word. Just my opinion.

 

[BrewMax]

You’re going by people’s opinions too, but don’t seem to be aware of it. You’re being taught Protestant theology first, then led to the Bible for verses to support their theology.

Do you believe “once saved, always saved” (OSAS)? It sounds like you do from what you wrote. If you do believe it, I have no doubt it was because some well-intentioned but misguided Protestant taught you this, then took you down the “Roman Road to Salvation.”

There are some problems with the Roman Road, though. We Catholics agree that the “Roman Road” is based on Scripture, but it is Scripture taken out of context for the purpose of trying to get Scripture to say something that it does not say. Did you ever wonder why is it such a crooked road? First you go to Romans 6:23, then detour to 5:8, then take a hairpin curve to 10:13 and 10:9-10? I guess Protestants disagree with Paul about the order these verses should have been written.

(As an aside, I’ve often thought Catholics should come up with a similar “Road to Rome,” first Matthew 16, then John 6, etc, etc. I might sit down and do that some day. I’ll PM you when I work out the details.)

Anyway, one thing I am sure of is that no one who independently reads the Bible on his own, without the aid of Protestant tradition, will come to believe the doctrine of OSAS. It’s impossible, especially when you come to the synoptic Gospels, particulary Matthew 5-8. Jesus never taught this. Shame on the people who are teaching it to you.

You totally lost me. So then, the Bible says that we must earn our salvation then??

 

[Janet_S]

You totally lost me. So then, the Bible says that we must earn our salvation then??

In your previous post, you implied that your church goes by the Bible while Catholics rely on people’s opinions. I’m just pointing out that your church most definitely does rely on people’s opinion–especially regarding people’s opinion of what the Bible teaches.

To illustrate my point, I took the example of how you believe in OSAS even though it’s not taught in the Bible. You are being taught this by your Protestant pastor, but, still, it’s not in the Bible. Historically (before Luther), Christians did not believe this, and even now, Protestants are divided on this issue. If you don’t believe me, read Matthew 5-8. Jesus is not teaching OSAS in the sermon on the mount. People can lose their salvation.

You ask if the Bible says we must earn our salvation. That’s not what the Catholic Church teaches, so I’m not sure why you ask. But, if you are interested, you can read what the Church teaches about salvation (with the Bible quotes to support it) in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Grace and Justification (Sections #1987 through #2029)
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P70.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P71.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P72.HTM

I’ve heard the difference between the Protestant and Catholic idea of salvation can be summed up this way:

Protestant: We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ.

Catholic: We are saved by grace (and our free will response to God’s grace), through faith (and a life of obedience), because of Christ (and His Church).

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach we earn our salvation, but many Protestants mistakenly believe that it does.

 

[BrewMax]

In your previous post, you implied that your church goes by the Bible while Catholics rely on people’s opinions. I’m just pointing out that your church most definitely does rely on people’s opinion–especially regarding people’s opinion of what the Bible teaches.

To illustrate my point, I took the example of how you believe in OSAS even though it’s not taught in the Bible. You are being taught this by your Protestant pastor, but, still, it’s not in the Bible. Historically (before Luther), Christians did not believe this, and even now, Protestants are divided on this issue. If you don’t believe me, read Matthew 5-8. Jesus is not teaching OSAS in the sermon on the mount. People can lose their salvation.

You ask if the Bible says we must earn our salvation. That’s not what the Catholic Church teaches, so I’m not sure why you ask. But, if you are interested, you can read what the Church teaches about salvation (with the Bible quotes to support it) in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Grace and Justification (Sections #1987 through #2029)
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P70.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P71.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P72.HTM

I guess I don’t understand what you are saying. You either go by the Bible or you don’t. If Scriptures weren’t for us to understand, then why do they read them in church?

 

[guanophore]

Theoretically. But there have been divisions even before the term “Roman Catholic Church” was invented. Anyway Ive seen Catholics & Protestants who believe that all these christian factions, this diversity, are all part of the same body.

This is the Catholic Teaching.

What do you think, of all the protestants out there, are they all false christians? what about the orthodox? the coptics?

All who are “in Christ” are members of His Body. there is only one Body.

 

[Janet_S]

Here’s more (in a condensed form) about what the Catholic Church teaches about Salvation (from the Compendium OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH):
422. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

1. What is the grace that justifies?

1996-1998
2005
2021

That grace is the gratuitous gift that God gives us to make us participants in his trinitarian life and able to act by his love. It is called habitual, sanctifying or deifying grace because it sanctifies and divinizes us. It is supernatural because it depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative and surpasses the abilities of the intellect and the powers of human beings. It therefore escapes our experience.

1. What other kinds of grace are there?

1999-2000
2003-2004
2023-2024

Besides habitual grace, there are actual graces (gifts for specific circumstances), sacramental graces (gifts proper to each sacrament), special graces or charisms (gifts that are intended for the common good of the Church) among which are the graces of state that accompany the exercise of ecclesial ministries and the responsibilities of life.

1. What is the relationship between grace and human freedom?

2001-2002

Grace precedes, prepares and elicits our free response. It responds to the deep yearnings of human freedom, calls for its cooperation and leads freedom toward its perfection.

1. What is merit?

2006-2010
2025-2026

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.

1. What are the goods that we can merit?

2010-2011
2027

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

1. Are all called to Christian holiness?

2012-2016
2028-2029

All the faithful are called to Christian holiness. This is the fullness of Christian life and the perfection of charity and it is brought about by intimate union with Christ and, in him, with the most Holy Trinity. The path to holiness for a Christian goes by way of the cross and will come to its fulfillment in the final resurrection of the just, in which God will be all in all.

 

[geezerbob]

BrewMax, one of the hardest things to get across to most Protestants is that a lot of things in the Bible are not mutually exclusive, such as grace and works. It’s not one or the other, but both. Matthew 25: 31-46, makes it perfectly clear that works are required, what they are, and also describes how those who fail to do as He commands will spend eternity. Jesus says nothing about getting extra stars in your crown or a bigger mansion in heaven for your obedience (works), but whether you will get in or be cast into the fiery pit prepared for the devil and his angels.

Without going any further, please explain how you can read this parable from Matthew and say that Our Savior requires no works from us? Isaiah 58 says essentially the same thing, but goes a bit farther and says that we should not even expect God to hear our prayers until we are obedient to His commands.

If we can come to an agreement on this point, maybe we can then move on to something else without talking past each other.

 

[BrewMax]

Here’s more (in a condensed form) about what the Catholic Church teaches about Salvation (from the Compendium OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH):
422. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

1. What is the grace that justifies?

1996-1998
2005
2021

That grace is the gratuitous gift that God gives us to make us participants in his trinitarian life and able to act by his love. It is called habitual, sanctifying or deifying grace because it sanctifies and divinizes us. It is supernatural because it depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative and surpasses the abilities of the intellect and the powers of human beings. It therefore escapes our experience.

1. What other kinds of grace are there?

1999-2000
2003-2004
2023-2024

Besides habitual grace, there are actual graces (gifts for specific circumstances), sacramental graces (gifts proper to each sacrament), special graces or charisms (gifts that are intended for the common good of the Church) among which are the graces of state that accompany the exercise of ecclesial ministries and the responsibilities of life.

1. What is the relationship between grace and human freedom?

2001-2002

Grace precedes, prepares and elicits our free response. It responds to the deep yearnings of human freedom, calls for its cooperation and leads freedom toward its perfection.

1. What is merit?

2006-2010
2025-2026

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.

1. What are the goods that we can merit?

2010-2011
2027

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

1. Are all called to Christian holiness?

2012-2016
2028-2029

All the faithful are called to Christian holiness. This is the fullness of Christian life and the perfection of charity and it is brought about by intimate union with Christ and, in him, with the most Holy Trinity. The path to holiness for a Christian goes by way of the cross and will come to its fulfillment in the final resurrection of the just, in which God will be all in all.

Why all of this when we can just plainly see what the Bible says about salvation? My trust is in God’s word.