What are the *True Facts* Regarding the Abortion-Approving Nun?

[Julianna]

OK this is where it gets confusing. I talked to former head of the theology department at a Jesuit University. He stated that if a person does not believe an act or intention is wrong, then he is not guilty of sin. He has to knowing believe that his intention was evil and only that person would know that in his heart.

In the catechism it states:
1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience.** Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53**

1790 A human being **must always obey **the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

So if the person acts against his conscience he is condemn but then **he is also condemned **if the person commits an evil act that is against the teaching of the Church, a sort of a no win situation.

If a person is excommunicated for allowing the abortion to go ahead in order to save the mother, I thought the church taught that it was okay if it was to save the life of the mother so apparently I am wrong. Then why are not Catholic professors at Catholic Universities who believe that** abortion is okay not excommunicated**. Why are not priests’ who have taken an oath to uphold the teaching and dogma of the church and who are consecrated to holiness and who commit repeated acts of sexual immorality or pedophilia which is also a grave mortal not excommunicated?**** Abortion and committing sexual immorality on innocent children are grave sins but why is the nun excommunicated and not the priests? It seems like a** double standard** is applied and lends itself to confusion within the Church? Perhaps some one can explain this.

I believe that is called, “The double standard”.

additionally, when sexually abusive priests were discovered…they (the powers that be…hmmmm the Bishop) “moved” him to another diocese or parish…and the “innocent” continued to pay the price. I guess that is morally just, because, the “innocent” that were molested…were already “here”.
How sad.

I will support the excommunication, when and “if”, it is “fair” across the board. It is now, not “fair”…and the Catholic Church continues to bleed $$$green$$$, at the expense of the faithful who put the $$$green$$$ in the collection plate.

 

[Julianna]

You can never murder an innocent person to save the life of another.

Cafeteria Catholic professors are all over like horse blank. Doesn’t rise to the level of automatic excommunication.

**Abortion is worse than molesting **because you destroy a life with no chance of recovery.

Abortion is murder, molesting is not. Abortion is the graver of the two IMHO.

Come again??? A life is destroyed either way. Where is the Church Doctrine that says so? I think the children who were molested would love to read over it…as well as their parents.

 

[kimmielittle]

This is not the same person. Sister Margaret McBride is the nun from St. Joseph’s who was part of the ethics committee and VP of mission integration there who approved the abortion in the case of the woman with pulmonary hypertension.

The article above that you quoted is Sister Keehan at Holy Family Hospital.

Isn’t both Sisters - of the order Of Sisters Daughters ] of Charity.This is what gave rise to my suspicions of Sister Margaret ethical ] stance. in the first place.

 

[Rence]

Come again??? A life is destroyed either way. Where is the Church Doctrine that says so? I think the children who were molested would love to read over it…as well as their parents.

A lot of people on this forum have said that abortion was worse than molesting small boys, and worse than rape, and the worst sin EVAR. Though abortion is a serious sin, I find these comments digusting and appalling, and quite frankly, BULL. However, I haven’t ever seen a Church documenting supporting these so I don’t know if this is an actual Church teaching or not. I would be extremely disappointed if it were, probably beyond repair. So until it’s proven to be an actual Church teaching, I’m just going to say that these are the thoughts of over-zealous anti-abortion folks.

 

[Rence]

Isn’t both Sisters - of the order Of Sisters Daughters ] of Charity.This is what gave rise to my suspicions of Sister Margaret ethical ] stance. in the first place.

I don’t know Kimmie, but these are two different women, out of two different hospitals, and two different cities.

The only reason why I corrected Soutane is because he is mistakenly applying the situation of Sister Keehan at Holy Family’s letter of defiance to her Bishop to Sister Margaret McBride, who is not the same person.

Sister Margaret, OTOH, to my knowledge, never commented on the situation she was involved in, and a follow up article somewhere said that she was reconciled with the Church. I very well could be mistaken about her public comments, but I haven’t seen them. And we really can’t apply someone else’s comments to another person.

We get in enough trouble on our own without our words being added to, twisted, misconstrued, or misquoted from other people saying them instead of us. We generally get enough flack for the words we actually DO say, so there’s no need to not use them exactly as they are said

 

[kimmielittle]

**Correction to my below post **

No,they are not of the same order…both supported the Health care bill, howerver

 

[kimmielittle]

I don’t know Kimmie, but these are two different women, out of two different hospitals, and two different cities.

The only reason why I corrected Soutane is because he is mistakenly applying the situation of Sister Keehan at Holy Family’s letter of defiance to her Bishop to Sister Margaret McBride, who is not the same person.

Sister Margaret, OTOH, to my knowledge, never commented on the situation she was involved in, and a follow up article somewhere said that she was reconciled with the Church. I very well could be mistaken about her public comments, but I haven’t seen them. And we really can’t apply someone else’s comments to another person.

We get in enough trouble on our own without our words being added to, twisted, misconstrued, or misquoted from other people saying them instead of us. We generally get enough flack for the words we actually DO say, so there’s no need to not use them exactly as they are said

Agreed

 

[JReducation]

Come again??? A life is destroyed either way. Where is the Church Doctrine that says so? I think the children who were molested would love to read over it…as well as their parents.

Actually, he is theologically correct. On the hierarchy of gravity, abortion is a more grave sin than sexual abuse. In an abortion you are mudering an innocent person. In sexual abuse you are doing a grave injustice to an innocent person, but you are not taking the person’s life. It is the murder that makes is a more heinous crime and sin. That’s why it is an excommunicable offense.

In an abortion you are attributing yourself authority that belongs only to God. You are commiting a double sin. You are commiting a sin of injustice against an innocent person. This is a sin against neighbor. Your are also commiting a sin of obstinancy against God, because you are challenging his authority to control life.

Moral law is not governed by the emotional repurcussions of a sin, but by Revelation. In revelation, abortion is addressed very specifically through the Magisterium, which is infallible.

While the sexual abuse of an innocent is a very sad and shameful act, Revelation tells us that it is not as grave as abortion. It is not the Church that has made up these rules, but Christ himself. He has revealed this through the Fathers, Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the Teaching Magisterium. None of these can ever make a mistake.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Rence]

**Correction to my below post **

No,they are not of the same order…both supported the Health care bill, howerver

One day, I’m going to give you a research project

 

[kimmielittle]

One day, I’m going to give you a research project

I will do my best

 

[catharina]

Isn’t both Sisters - of the order Of Sisters Daughters ] of Charity.This is what gave rise to my suspicions of Sister Margaret ethical ] stance. in the first place.

No. None of the hospital-affiliated Sisters are Daughters of Chrity.
All at the three abortion-hospitals are Sisters of Mercy.
The sister involved with obamacare is a Daughter of Charity.

 

[kimmielittle]

No. None of the hospital-affiliated Sisters are Daughters of Chrity.
All at the three abortion-hospitals are Sisters of Mercy.
The sister involved with obamacare is a Daughter of Charity.

Yeppers!!!

BUT all hospitals are Under US Catholic Health Association, I believe.This is the group who supported, against the Bishops, ObamaCare.

 

[catharina]

Yeppers!!!

BUT all hospitals are Under US Catholic Health Association, I believe.This is the group who supported, against the Bishops, ObamaCare.

Actually, the group is called
“Catholic Health Association of the United States (CHA)”.

The Sisters of Mercy have member-hospitals.
The Daughters of Charity do NOT have member hospitals.
Only Carol Keehan functions in the group.
She is the only Daughter of Charity affiliated with the group, as an employee only.

The group is a lobbying group - no more, no less.

 

[momor]

Actually, he is theologically correct. On the hierarchy of gravity, abortion is a more grave sin than sexual abuse. In an abortion you are mudering an innocent person. In sexual abuse you are doing a grave injustice to an innocent person, but you are not taking the person’s life. It is the murder that makes is a more heinous crime and sin. That’s why it is an excommunicable offense.

In an abortion you are attributing yourself authority that belongs only to God. You are commiting a double sin. You are commiting a sin of injustice against an innocent person. This is a sin against neighbor. Your are also commiting a sin of obstinancy against God, because you are challenging his authority to control life.

Moral law is not governed by the emotional repurcussions of a sin, but by Revelation. In revelation, abortion is addressed very specifically through the Magisterium, which is infallible.

While the sexual abuse of an innocent is a very sad and shameful act, Revelation tells us that it is not as grave as abortion. It is not the Church that has made up these rules, but Christ himself. He has revealed this through the Fathers, Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the Teaching Magisterium. None of these can ever make a mistake.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Are all murderers who take innocent life excommunicated?

 

[JReducation]

Are all murderers who take innocent life excommunicated?

The answer to this question is kind of tricky. Anyone who takes an innocent life has committed a very grave sin and cannot receive the Eucharist until he repents and receives absolution. But not everyone who murders is formally excommunicated.

To be formally excommunicated means that you cannot receive absolutioin unless it is granted by the bishop or with the authority of the bishop. There are three cases of murder where the priest does not have faculties to absolve, only a bishop does: abortion, killing of a cleric (deacon, priest or bishop), and killing of a consecrated religious (brother, sister, nun, monk, friar or consecrated virgin).

These murders can only be absolved by the local bishop. However, the local bishop has the authority and power to grant faculties to any priest to absolve from these murders. In the United States and other countries, where the number of Catholics is so large, the bishops have granted faculties to priests who are in full communion with the Church. These priests can absolve from these sins and they can lift the excommunication.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julianna]

Actually, he is theologically correct. On the hierarchy of gravity, abortion is a more grave sin than sexual abuse. In an abortion you are mudering an innocent person. In sexual abuse you are doing a grave injustice to an innocent person, but you are not taking the person’s life. It is the murder that makes is a more heinous crime and sin. That’s why it is an excommunicable offense.

In an abortion you are attributing yourself authority that belongs only to God. You are commiting a double sin. You are commiting a sin of injustice against an innocent person. This is a sin against neighbor. Your are also commiting a sin of obstinancy against God, because you are challenging his authority to control life.

Moral law is not governed by the emotional repurcussions of a sin, but by Revelation. In revelation, abortion is addressed very specifically through the Magisterium, which is infallible.

While the sexual abuse of an innocent is a very sad and shameful act, Revelation tells us that it is not as grave as abortion. It is not the Church that has made up these rules, but Christ himself. He has revealed this through the Fathers, Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the Teaching Magisterium. None of these can ever make a mistake.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks for letting me and the abused children (male and female) by priests that abuse is not considered in the “hierarchy of gravity” and only a sad and shameful act. Christ himself has revealed this through the “Fathers”…and they are?? who??? Is it a man (i.e. human being) from the 3rd or 4th century that started us on this road? Is is someone from the 1200’s, 1600’s, 1800’s? Was this issue relavant at that time? Was abortion relavant and in the forefront at that time?

I can tell you that early 1900’s-1950’s in America had millions of faithful followers of the Church…mostly immigrants who farmed the land in the old country, with barely an education…much less enlightment…and would “never question” a priest, about anything…including the abuse of a child…even if it were “their own child”.

Perhaps the “Sacred Tradition” and the “Teaching Magisterium” need to have another “look see” into this issue…as this “sad and shameful” act is a continual open and infectious wound in the face of the “all seeing, and all knowing” Sacred Tradition.

Churches and schools are closing left and right in this country…not because there aren’t any butt in the pews…because the abuse scandal has drained the coffers.

When the Church realizes (and one doesn’t need a Revelation to prove it), that the Church is made up of “fallible, human beings” and Priests, Sisters/Nuns/Religious, Brothers, Monsignors, Cardinals…and yes…the Pope…don’t walk on water…the Church will begin to address this issue and work through it as a community.

 

[catharina]

When the Church realizes (and one doesn’t need a Revelation to prove it), that the Church is made up of “fallible, human beings” and Priests, Sisters/Nuns/Religious, Brothers, Monsignors, Cardinals…and yes…the Pope…don’t walk on water…the Church will begin to address this issue and work through it as a community.

The Church knows this.

 

[Julianna]

The Church knows this.

Cat…you wouldn’t know it by reading posts on here.

 

[catharina]

Cat…you wouldn’t know it by reading posts on here.

Hi. My name has never been Cat.
People can defend the Church while not defending sinners in the Church.

 

[momor]

The answer to this question is kind of tricky. Anyone who takes an innocent life has committed a very grave sin and cannot receive the Eucharist until he repents and receives absolution. But not everyone who murders is formally excommunicated.

To be formally excommunicated means that you cannot receive absolutioin unless it is granted by the bishop or with the authority of the bishop. There are three cases of murder where the priest does not have faculties to absolve, only a bishop does: abortion, killing of a cleric (deacon, priest or bishop), and killing of a consecrated religious (brother, sister, nun, monk, friar or consecrated virgin).

These murders can only be absolved by the local bishop. However, the local bishop has the authority and power to grant faculties to any priest to absolve from these murders. In the United States and other countries, where the number of Catholics is so large, the bishops have granted faculties to priests who are in full communion with the Church. These priests can absolve from these sins and they can lift the excommunication.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

It does help. Thanks.

But it raises another question. Why have these 3 been singled out?