What are the *True Facts* Regarding the Abortion-Approving Nun?

[catharina]

It does help. Thanks.

But it raises another question. Why have these 3 been singled out?

“abortion, killing of a cleric (deacon, priest or bishop), and killing of a consecrated religious (brother, sister, nun, monk, friar or consecrated virgin).”

First: entirely innocent and defenseless
Others: specially dedicated to service of God in His Church

 

[momor]

“abortion, killing of a cleric (deacon, priest or bishop), and killing of a consecrated religious (brother, sister, nun, monk, friar or consecrated virgin).”

First: entirely innocent and defenseless
Others: specially dedicated to service of God in His Church

A 1 day old child is just as defenseless and innocent as an unborn baby. It has to be more than that.

 

[catharina]

A 1 day old child is just as defenseless and innocent as an unborn baby. It has to be more than that.

There is at least a possibility that a 1-day-old child might be with others to assist him.
A child in the womb is at the mercy of his mother’s good will.

 

[catharina]

Mother Teresa:

“But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”

 

[JReducation]

It does help. Thanks.

But it raises another question. Why have these 3 been singled out?

Abortion was singled out because not only is the child in the womb innocent, but also helpless. He can’t run, hide or fight back Secondly, those who engage in abortions are playing God. They are violating the most sacred of all commandments. “I am the Lord they God …”

The killing of an ordained cleric or a consecrated religious is a direct attack on a person who does not belong to the world and over whom the world has no jurisdiction. This person belongs totally to Christ. It becomes an attack on Christ and those whom he has called into intimicy with him in the here and now. In addition, it has to do with the sacredness of the calling. The Council of Trent declared that there was no higher calling in the Christian life than consecrated celibacy. To attack and kill a consecrated celibate man or woman is to attack the state itself.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Thanks for letting me and the abused children (male and female) by priests that abuse is not considered in the “hierarchy of gravity” and only a sad and shameful act. Christ himself has revealed this through the “Fathers”…and they are?? who??? Is it a man (i.e. human being) from the 3rd or 4th century that started us on this road? Is is someone from the 1200’s, 1600’s, 1800’s? Was this issue relavant at that time? Was abortion relavant and in the forefront at that time?

I can tell you that early 1900’s-1950’s in America had millions of faithful followers of the Church…mostly immigrants who farmed the land in the old country, with barely an education…much less enlightment…and would “never question” a priest, about anything…including the abuse of a child…even if it were “their own child”.

Perhaps the “Sacred Tradition” and the “Teaching Magisterium” need to have another “look see” into this issue…as this “sad and shameful” act is a continual open and infectious wound in the face of the “all seeing, and all knowing” Sacred Tradition.

Churches and schools are closing left and right in this country…not because there aren’t any butt in the pews…because the abuse scandal has drained the coffers.

When the Church realizes (and one doesn’t need a Revelation to prove it), that the Church is made up of “fallible, human beings” and Priests, Sisters/Nuns/Religious, Brothers, Monsignors, Cardinals…and yes…the Pope…don’t walk on water…the Church will begin to address this issue and work through it as a community.

No one has ever said that sexual abuse of children is not on the hierarchy of moral evils. What I said was that it is not a more grave evil than abortion. It actually comes behind it.

This has been revealed to us in the Book of Genesis where we see the first sin is man’s attempt to challenge God. An abortion is such an attempt. The second sin that is revealed to us is Cain killing Able. Abortion is also murder. In third place come Sodom and Ghomorrha, the sins of the flesh.

In the Commandments the order is the same. The first three are about God and man’s duties toward God. The fourth is about our parents. The fifth is about murder. Finally, the sixth is about sins of the flesh. God did not reveal them in a random order, but in the order of hierarchy.

Yes, many of the fathers of the Church had to deal with abortion and sexual abuse of minors. Augustine, for one, places abortion above sexual abuse. However, no one ever says that sexual abuse is permissible or just a tragic accident. It is tragic, because there are victims who are innocent. It is gravely sinful because it violates justice toward neighbor and the fundamental purpose of human sexuality. But it cannot claim the same position on the order of gravity as abortion, because it does not literally murder.

If one does not believe these Fathers, one falls into grave danger. These are the same Fathers who defined the Trinity, the Immaculate Conception, the Hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ, Transubstantiation, the papacy, the sacraments and even organized the bible as we know it today. We know that God speaks to the Church through them. Therefore, they must be obeyed without question, because what they have to teach is what God commands them to teach.

Sacred Tradition is inviolable. The Magisterium is also inviolable. We cannot rewrite what sacred tradition and the Magisterium have always taught. We can explain it better or in different words, but never change the message. This is painful for some people to hear, but we do not have the authority to change what has been revealed or to reorganize it.

Do you see what I mean?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julianna]

No one has ever said that sexual abuse of children is not on the hierarchy of moral evils. What I said was that it is not a more grave evil than abortion. It actually comes behind it.

This has been revealed to us in the Book of Genesis where we see the first sin is man’s attempt to challenge God. An abortion is such an attempt. The second sin that is revealed to us is Cain killing Able. Abortion is also murder. In third place come Sodom and Ghomorrha, the sins of the flesh.

In the Commandments the order is the same. The first three are about God and man’s duties toward God. The fourth is about our parents. The fifth is about murder. Finally, the sixth is about sins of the flesh. God did not reveal them in a random order, but in the order of hierarchy.

Yes, many of the fathers of the Church had to deal with abortion and sexual abuse of minors. Augustine, for one, places abortion above sexual abuse. However, no one ever says that sexual abuse is permissible or just a tragic accident. It is tragic, because there are victims who are innocent. It is gravely sinful because it violates justice toward neighbor and the fundamental purpose of human sexuality. But it cannot claim the same position on the order of gravity as abortion, because it does not literally murder.

If one does not believe these Fathers, one falls into grave danger. These are the same Fathers who defined the Trinity, the Immaculate Conception, the Hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ, Transubstantiation, the papacy, the sacraments and even organized the bible as we know it today. We know that God speaks to the Church through them. Therefore, they must be obeyed without question, because what they have to teach is what God commands them to teach.

Sacred Tradition is inviolable. The Magisterium is also inviolable. We cannot rewrite what sacred tradition and the Magisterium have always taught. We can explain it better or in different words, but never change the message. This is painful for some people to hear, but we do not have the authority to change what has been revealed or to reorganize it.

Do you see what I mean?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

As long as they are/were “mortal”, I will ask the question and I will debate the issue as it pertains to this day and time. The same way I debate the political right wing when they bring up the Founding Fathers. During that time, women did not have any rights, could not vote, own property or land. Same during Augustine’s time. Do we really want to go back there? I certainly do not.

Truth be told…growing up in the Diocese in Springfield, MA…heavily Catholic…I have never heard the word Magisterium until CAF. I was born in '58…so I’m not a newbie to the Church. I remember all my catechism books from 2nd grade through high school and I have never seen that word in print…in any of them…nor a catechist say the word.

I understand Sacred Tradition…I don’t understand how a Church I grew up in would have me believe all these years that it was the end all and be all…when all the time, the Priests and Bishops who “know” all the ins and out of the faith…allowed abuse to flourish throughout the Church…and then dismiss it as not a grave sin…on equal with abortion. This boggles the mind…until…at long last…I realized…“the Church” is made up of “fallible” human beings…not smarter…not better…not above…not below…just human…just like me. I am now in perspective and clear.

I find it odd that it was mostly men that received all the “important” teachings “inside info” throughout the ages from God. Puzzling indeed…and quite suspect. Until I realize again…that was the “order of the day” back in early, early Church. Let’s move up a notch…to say the 21st Century.

JR…I am not advocating across the board changes to Sacred Tradition…I would rather see “discussion” will “all” persons present around the table…about grave matters such as abortion and abuse.

Let me ask a question of you…since I really don’t know…are the Magisterium a group of people? I hope I get an honest answer.

 

[Rence]

Thanks for letting me and the abused children (male and female) by priests that abuse is not considered in the “hierarchy of gravity” and only a sad and shameful act. Christ himself has revealed this through the “Fathers”…and they are?? who??? Is it a man (i.e. human being) from the 3rd or 4th century that started us on this road? Is is someone from the 1200’s, 1600’s, 1800’s? Was this issue relavant at that time? Was abortion relavant and in the forefront at that time?

That’s how I feel about it and more. I’m shocked to read about these determinations by the Church. And sickened. Yes, Jesus promised the help of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church leaders but nowhere does it say that Free Will was taken away from these Church leaders so that they had no choice but to interpret the influence of the Holy Spirit correctly. They were still influenced by their own beliefs, values and opinions. And it’s in these instances, and actually a few others, and it shows quite blatantly the more I learn about the Church and it’s “infallible” rules. I have a very difficult time trusting the human element of the Church - more and more. And this certainly didn’t help.

I can tell you that early 1900’s-1950’s in America had millions of faithful followers of the Church…mostly immigrants who farmed the land in the old country, with barely an education…much less enlightment…and would “never question” a priest, about anything…including the abuse of a child…even if it were “their own child”.

I remember when nuns and priests could physically reprimand children and no one would blink. Some of my friends told me that if they told their mom that the nun hit them, their mom would hit them again for ‘making Sister hit you’. No way today. When I was a kid, a nun hit my brother and my mom told “Sister” if she did it again, she’d have my mom to contend with. And that’s repeating it back nicely. Priests and nuns working with children should not be physically striking kids. I’d never let them put a hand on my kid. It’s not small wonder why clergy found it advantageous to sexually abuse a child because no one dared question the clergy about it.

Perhaps the “Sacred Tradition” and the “Teaching Magisterium” need to have another “look see” into this issue…as this “sad and shameful” act is a continual open and infectious wound in the face of the “all seeing, and all knowing” Sacred Tradition.

Churches and schools are closing left and right in this country…not because there aren’t any butt in the pews…because the abuse scandal has drained the coffers.

When the Church realizes (and one doesn’t need a Revelation to prove it), that the Church is made up of “fallible, human beings” and Priests, Sisters/Nuns/Religious, Brothers, Monsignors, Cardinals…and yes…the Pope…don’t walk on water…the Church will begin to address this issue and work through it as a community.

They need to revisit this “sad and shameful” issue and others as well. The fact that some of these issues were “settled” 2000 years ago by medieval men means it’s time for them to be revisited. People do what they want, when they want as it is. Give them more reasons to rebel and they will, especially if that other denomination protects the interests of their children.

 

[Rence]

As long as they are/were “mortal”, I will ask the question and I will debate the issue as it pertains to this day and time. The same way I debate the political right wing when they bring up the Founding Fathers. During that time, women did not have any rights, could not vote, own property or land. Same during Augustine’s time. Do we really want to go back there? I certainly do not.

Truth be told…growing up in the Diocese in Springfield, MA…heavily Catholic…I have never heard the word Magisterium until CAF. I was born in '58…so I’m not a newbie to the Church. I remember all my catechism books from 2nd grade through high school and I have never seen that word in print…in any of them…nor a catechist say the word.

I understand Sacred Tradition…I don’t understand how a Church I grew up in would have me believe all these years that it was the end all and be all…when all the time, the Priests and Bishops who “know” all the ins and out of the faith…allowed abuse to flourish throughout the Church…and then dismiss it as not a grave sin…on equal with abortion. This boggles the mind…until…at long last…I realized…“the Church” is made up of “fallible” human beings…not smarter…not better…not above…not below…just human…just like me. I am now in perspective and clear.

I find it odd that it was mostly men that received all the “important” teachings “inside info” throughout the ages from God. Puzzling indeed…and quite suspect. Until I realize again…that was the “order of the day” back in early, early Church. Let’s move up a notch…to say the 21st Century.
.

It’s like the thoughts leaked out of my mind and onto your response. The only thing I’d add at the moment was. I’d never heard of “the sin of relativism” or “absolutism” until reading it on CAF either. I’d never heard of it in all my years in Catholic schools of all levels.

 

[Julianna]

That’s how I feel about it and more. I’m shocked to read about these determinations by the Church. And sickened. Yes, Jesus promised the help of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church leaders but nowhere does it say that Free Will was taken away from these Church leaders so that they had no choice but to interpret the influence of the Holy Spirit correctly. They were still influenced by their own beliefs, values and opinions. And it’s in these instances, and actually a few others, and it shows quite blatantly the more I learn about the Church and it’s “infallible” rules. I have a very difficult time trusting the human element of the Church - more and more. And this certainly didn’t help.

I remember when nuns and priests could physically reprimand children and no one would blink. Some of my friends told me that if they told their mom that the nun hit them, their mom would hit them again for ‘making Sister hit you’. No way today. When I was a kid, a nun hit my brother and my mom told “Sister” if she did it again, she’d have my mom to contend with. And that’s repeating it back nicely. Priests and nuns working with children should not be physically striking kids. I’d never let them put a hand on my kid. It’s not small wonder why clergy found it advantageous to sexually abuse a child because no one dared question the clergy about it.

They need to revisit this “sad and shameful” issue and others as well. The fact that some of these issues were “settled” 2000 years ago by medieval men means it’s time for them to be revisited. People do what they want, when they want as it is. Give them more reasons to rebel and they will, especially if that other denomination protects the interests of their children.

You got that right. You are the second person, other than myself who brought up that fact.
My lil ol Italian grandmother would have never questioned a priest. However, she knew "which priest’ to go to, when the other priest said “I will not allow a Catholic to marry a Protestant in THIS Church.” By the way the priest that screamed at my dad when he wanted to marry my mom…a few years later the very same priest ran off with one of the female parishoners. So there proves my point…“human”.

 

[Julianna]

It’s like the thoughts leaked out of my mind and onto your response. The only thing I’d add at the moment was. I’d never heard of “the sin of relativism” or “absolutism” until reading it on CAF either. I’d never heard of it in all my years in Catholic schools of all levels.

and neither have I. Grew up in a “heavily” Catholic area in Massachusetts in the early 60’s…all the bells and smells…never heard that either.

 

[momor]

Yes, many of the fathers of the Church had to deal with abortion and sexual abuse of minors. Augustine, for one, places abortion above sexual abuse. However, no one ever says that sexual abuse is permissible or just a tragic accident. It is tragic, because there are victims who are innocent. It is gravely sinful because it violates justice toward neighbor and the fundamental purpose of human sexuality. But it cannot claim the same position on the order of gravity as abortion, because it does not literally murder.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

What about murder of the soul? I think priestly sexual abuse has done exactly that to many children and turned them away from God forever. In the hierarchy of things, that is far more serious than the murder of just the body.

 

[Rence]

You got that right. You are the second person, other than myself who brought up that fact.
My lil ol Italian grandmother would have never questioned a priest. However, she knew "which priest’ to go to, when the other priest said “I will not allow a Catholic to marry a Protestant in THIS Church.” By the way the priest that screamed at my dad when he wanted to marry my mom…a few years later the very same priest ran off with one of the female parishoners. So there proves my point…“human”.

I had a response prepared and decided not to post it. It’s not worth the effort. Something is wrong with an establishment if they can’t commit to protecting born children like Jesus did.

Suffice it to say, I don’t buy it anymore…

 

[momor]

Abortion was singled out because not only is the child in the womb innocent, but also helpless. He can’t run, hide or fight back Secondly, those who engage in abortions are playing God. They are violating the most sacred of all commandments. “I am the Lord they God …”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I don’t see anything here that does not apply just as much to a one day old baby.

 

[Rence]

What about murder of the soul? I think priestly sexual abuse has done exactly that to many children and turned them away from God forever. In the hierarchy of things, that is far more serious than the murder of just the body.

I agree that sexual abuse is murder of the soul, but apparently, it’s not seen that way by the Catholic Church by their own definitions. Being that we’re all human, I guess we’re all entitled to our opinions.

 

[catharina]

What about murder of the soul? I think priestly sexual abuse has done exactly that to many children and turned them away from God forever. In the hierarchy of things, that is far more serious than the murder of just the body.

I might know what you’re trying to say, but if so, you’re mis-stating Scripture.

**The Scripture, Matthew 10 states:

“28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”**

IOW, the one with the power to kill the soul is the devil.
Popular culture (e.g., pop psych) has blamed “abusers” for this, but it’s not the truth.

 

[Julianna]

What about murder of the soul? I think priestly sexual abuse has done exactly that to many children and turned them away from God forever. In the hierarchy of things, that is far more serious than the murder of just the body.

I was going to say “murder of the soul”…I was concerned it would fall on “blind eyes”. Thank you for courage for stating so. Yes, it would be common knowledge that an abused child would totally “separate” themselves from their abuser in all aspects. Sadly, not just the Church…but to God Himself…and that…is scary. A living soul…broken…angry…afraid of the very ones who were supposed to “teach” about our Lord.

And no…they were not all homosexuals…geez louise…just in case someone brings that up.

 

[catharina]

I had a response prepared and decided not to post it. It’s not worth the effort. Something is wrong with an establishment if they can’t commit to protecting born children like Jesus did.

Suffice it to say, I don’t buy it anymore…

Hope you can remember that Jesus too protected children from His disciples.
The issue there was their disrespect and harshness -
but Jesus demonstrated that abusive actions can arise among any folks.

 

[catharina]

I was going to say “murder of the soul”…I was concerned it would fall on “blind eyes”. Thank you for courage for stating so. Yes, it would be common knowledge that an abused child would totally “separate” themselves from their abuser in all aspects. Sadly, not just the Church…but to God Himself…and that…is scary. A living soul…broken…angry…afraid of the very ones who were supposed to “teach” about our Lord.

And no…they were not all homosexuals…geez louise…just in case someone brings that up.

Again see Scripture, MATT 10:28.
‘Soul murder’ is a myth perpetrated by pop-psych.

 

[Julianna]

I might know what you’re trying to say, but if so, you’re mis-stating Scripture.

**The Scripture, Matthew 10 states:

“28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”**

IOW, the one with the power to kill the soul is the devil.
Popular culture (e.g., pop psych) has blamed “abusers” for this, but it’s not the truth.

When a person has been abused…they no longer trust. That is not pop psychology. When the “trust” is betrayed…the cause and affect leaves the person vunerable for “evil”. The abuser…has a hand in killing the soul…don’t kid yourself, honey.