What are the *True Facts* Regarding the Abortion-Approving Nun?

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I’m sorry, but that is not true. My priest told me that we are not allowed to force people to be catholic and to try to force people to accept catholic teachings. He said we have an obligation to tell people the Truth, and if they choose to accept it, we rejoice, and if they choose not to accept it, we mourn for them. But we cannot force or coerce them to follow the Catholic faith. They have the right to follow their own faith, or none at all. This does not make one ‘not catholic’, this makes one mindful of another’s free will and freedom to choose religion.
We can’t force anyone to believe the Trinity, or Transubstantiation, or the Immaculate Conception.

But the truth that abortion takes the life of an unborn child is true irrespective of what belief system anyone has.

In high school I had a teacher who was an anti-catholic- atheist. She was pro-life. If you search the Internet you will find many groups that are pro-life who are not Catholic, Jews for life, Baptists for Life, even Pagans for Life.

In the US we have freedom of religion, we are free to worship a tree without persecution.

Killing the unborn is evil.
Circa 50% of the population is pro-life. 50% of the population is not Catholic.
 
We can’t force anyone to believe the Trinity, or Transubstantiation, or the Immaculate Conception.

But the truth that abortion takes the life of an unborn child is true irrespective of what belief system anyone has.

In high school I had a teacher who was an anti-catholic- atheist. She was pro-life. If you search the Internet you will find many groups that are pro-life who are not Catholic, Jews for life, Baptists for Life, even Pagans for Life.

In the US we have freedom of religion, we are free to worship a tree without persecution.

Killing the unborn is evil.
Circa 50% of the population is pro-life. 50% of the population is not Catholic.
gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

May 15, 2009
More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First TimeAlso, fewer think abortion should be legal “under any circumstances”by Lydia SaadPRINCETON, NJ – A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves “pro-life” on the issue of abortion and 42% "pro-choice." This is the first time a majority of U.S. adults have identified themselves as pro-life since Gallup began asking this question in 1995.
 
from:

ncregister.com/register_e…_iand_i_child/

INTERVIEW WITH: Dr. Paul Byrne is director of neonatology and pediatrics at St. Charles Mercy Hospital in Toledo, Ohio, and a former president of the Catholic Medical Association. His work in neonatology began in 1963, and he became a board-certified neonatologist in 1975, subsequently developing oxygen masks, an incubator monitor and a blood-pressure tester for premature babies, which he and a colleague adapted from the finger blood pressure checkers used for astronauts. During his interview, Byrne stressed that he was not speaking on behalf of St. Charles Mercy Hospital.



from Doctor Byrne:

"Good medicine follows good morals. You can’t have good medicine without good morals. Life is a gift, and doctors and nurses are called to protect and preserve human life from conception to natural end.

While acknowledging the lack of specific information regarding the Phoenix case, **I cannot recall any similar situation in which abortion was advised to treat pulmonary hypertension. **In my experience, when you think your way through a medical problem, you come up with solutions that provide better treatment for the mother, and these solutions allow the baby to grow large enough to survive outside the uterus. … "

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6735428#post6735428

“Treating Both Mother and Baby”
 
We can’t force anyone to believe the Trinity, or Transubstantiation, or the Immaculate Conception.

But the truth that abortion takes the life of an unborn child is true irrespective of what belief system anyone has.

In high school I had a teacher who was an anti-catholic- atheist. She was pro-life. If you search the Internet you will find many groups that are pro-life who are not Catholic, Jews for life, Baptists for Life, even Pagans for Life.

In the US we have freedom of religion, we are free to worship a tree without persecution.

Killing the unborn is evil.
Circa 50% of the population is pro-life. 50% of the population is not Catholic.
Do you think there will be fewer abortions if a law is passed to outlaw them, or if hearts and minds are changed voluntarily and they are persuaded of the value of life? Hearts and minds are not changed via coercion - this only happens via persuasion.

You might be asking “Why cant we pursue both courses of action?” There are several reasons why this is a bad idea.

First, as mentioned in earlier posts, when you give government the power to enforce your moral beliefs, you are also implicitly giving government the power to enforce the opposite of your moral beliefs as well. For example, you want government to outlaw abortion, and the opposite of that is government paying for abortions. That’s not exactly what you intended, is it?

Second, the government is an abject failure in curtailing things that are not universally regarded as wrong. If this were not true, then the ‘war on drugs’ would have eliminated drug use years ago. You may want everyone to view abortion as wrong, and you wonder why everyone doesn’t see the issue as you do, but you admitted in your post that there is disagreement on this issue. Do not allow the emotional nature of the issue to cloud your understanding of the unfortunate reality of government.
 
Brother JR,
I found your recent posts to be very dense and contradictory. I am trying to figure out your meaning.

On a practical level are you saying that Catholics have the responsibility to work for Catholic truth in our society in the way we vote, which charities we give to, if a politician - which bills we support, any public demonstrations we attend, policies we implement in our workplace, our participation in professional organizations, etc.? As individuals we should oppose that which is contradictory to our Truth within the framework of our constitutional laws and rights? All the while acknowledging that the same way we have a right to work for Catholic values, we cannot deny someone else the right to work for their particular values? If so, I agree with that. I also think that it is practically impossible for a Catholic to be a politician, a judge, etc. and remain faithful to our Truth while upholding the pluralistic civil values and laws in our country. I know I could not do it.

I was recently in a situation that put me at some personal risk at work. My company has a strong LGBT association of which it is very proud and for which it has won a national workplace equality award. We recently had a corporate sponsored day to ‘celebrate and support’ our LGBT co-workers. The company passed out rainbow ribbons for people to wear in support. My manager is very openly gay and living with another man who is generally understood to be his ‘spouse’. There are other openly gay co-habiting workers in my dept as well, including other managers.

I chose not to wear a ribbon even though I was concerned that my manager might find it offensive and that it could have veiled repercusions. I didn’t speak in opposition to the ‘celebration’ but I decided that if anyone offered me a ribbon or asked why I wasn’t wearing one I would be truthful but respectful in my explanation. When the day came almost the only ones wearing the ribbon were managers so I needn’t have worried. I did wonder though how many of the managers felt forced into wearing them to appear PC and out of fear that a gay employee might have complained. I decided management in the company is another area that I cannot participate in as a Catholic.
 
There are not a multitude of truths there is but one.The One who was standing before Poncious Pilate,when he asked ,“What is Truth”?. All else is Relativism which means… .there is no Truth at all.One might look in one’s bathroom mirror for the Truth and I guarantee you won’t find it
.Christ said,"I am the way,the Truth,and the Life."Not Mohammed,not John Smith,not Henry VIII,not Calvin,nor Martin Luther,and certainly not Jimmy Swaggert,nor Buddha …Christ-Truth Himself.Represented by the Body of Christ on earth the Holy Catholic Church and His Vicar-the Pope.
you know, after a few months on these forums the plug your ears and yell “I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you” act is getting a little tired. An honest discussion is not possible when you mistake faith for fact.
 
Do you think there will be fewer abortions if a law is passed to outlaw them, or if hearts and minds are changed voluntarily and they are persuaded of the value of life? Hearts and minds are not changed via coercion - this only happens via persuasion.

You might be asking “Why cant we pursue both courses of action?” There are several reasons why this is a bad idea.

First, as mentioned in earlier posts, when you give government the power to enforce your moral beliefs, you are also implicitly giving government the power to enforce the opposite of your moral beliefs as well. For example, you want government to outlaw abortion, and the opposite of that is government paying for abortions. That’s not exactly what you intended, is it?

Second, the government is an abject failure in curtailing things that are not universally regarded as wrong. If this were not true, then the ‘war on drugs’ would have eliminated drug use years ago. You may want everyone to view abortion as wrong, and you wonder why everyone doesn’t see the issue as you do, but you admitted in your post that there is disagreement on this issue. Do not allow the emotional nature of the issue to cloud your understanding of the unfortunate reality of government.
I lived in the Bronx in 1990. The murder rate in NYC at the time was about 7 murders a day. At the time should NYC have conducted a PR campaign saying, “Please don’t murder other New Yorkers, we are trying to change your hearts… :love:” ?

But for some reason, the smallest, most helpless, most fragile, innocent of all humanity don’t deserve protection from the government because we need to wait to change hearts. The “pro-choice” side won’t give an inch. They have lawyers ready to challenge any law enacted to curtail abortion, be it parental notification, be it waiting periods, be it sonograms.

And we need to wait for a change of heart? After almost 40 years of legalized abortion, how much time do we need to change hearts.
 
I lived in the Bronx in 1990. The murder rate in NYC at the time was about 7 murders a day. At the time should NYC have conducted a PR campaign saying, "Please don’t murder other New Yorkers, we are trying to change your hearts
Your analogy doesn’t work. You are talking about something that is near universally recognized as wrong. Abortion is not viewed that way, despite what anyone on this forum wishes were true.
And we need to wait for a change of heart? After almost 40 years of legalized abortion, how much time do we need to change hearts.
You have essentially made my point for me. The pro-life movement has spent an inordinate amount of time trying to work towards a government solution - instead of putting the majority of their efforts into persuasion and trying to change hearts and minds.
 
Your analogy doesn’t work. You are talking about something that is near universally recognized as wrong. Abortion is not viewed that way, despite what anyone on this forum wishes were true.

You have essentially made my point for me. The pro-life movement has spent an inordinate amount of time trying to work towards a government solution - instead of putting the majority of their efforts into persuasion and trying to change hearts and minds.
The fact that not everyone views the destruction of pre-born life as evil is very odd to me. It is evil, it is very evil.

Many years ago people thought it was morally acceptable to own black people. Did we wait for “hearts and minds” to be changed, or were they freed?

Not so long ago, a large population of people thought that Jews had no rights, and many people closed their eyes when they were rounded up and brought to death camps. Should we have waited for hearts to change?

What about you? Are you trying to change hearts?
 
The fact that not everyone views the destruction of pre-born life as evil is very odd to me.
I completely understand your feelings. That doesn’t change the fact that roughly half the population views this issue differently, hence the issue needs to be approached differently.
Many years ago people thought it was morally acceptable to own black people. Did we wait for “hearts and minds” to be changed, or were they freed?
Slavery was repugnant and wrong. There was a groundswell of opposition to slavery well before the Civil war, the EP, etc. It would have ended even without these events.
Not so long ago, a large population of people thought that Jews had no rights, and many people closed their eyes when they were rounded up and brought to death camps. Should we have waited for hearts to change?
This is not an appropriate analogy, as this is something that is near universally recognized as wrong.
What about you? Are you trying to change hearts?
I am trying to change hearts and minds with regard to the perils of big government and the dangers of using coercion to tackle moral issues. And I am trying to convince those who are passionate about this issue to focus their efforts where it will actually do some good - i.e. persuasion instead of coercion.
 
In the 1850’s half the American population thought slavery was just dandy. Evolution of morality and a war changed that.We are in the midst of such a war metaphorically speaking and the consequences aremore significant as the casualties are babies and the souls of mothers and abortionists

.This is part of the greater Culture War and everyone is a soldier in this battle.There will be no"I didn’t know what was going on"defense in this one.People have to be hit over the head metaphorically as often as possible to wake them up to the fact that there are thousands of serial killers amongst us and that babies are being murdered by the millions in North America.

The only difference between this holocaust and the one the Jews,Gypsies,homosexuals,Poles,Ukrainians,Rwandans,and Armenians suffered is that this one is happening behind the closed doors of the Abortuaries and their murder is being abetted by our governments and courts.If those innocents could scream you would be deafened.We will ALL be held accountable by our actions or sins of ommission.
 
Personally I’d rather coerce a murderer rather than "persuade"them.The only way to coerce muderers in this instance is to protect the unborn by making it a civil rights issue.
 
Brother JR,
I found your recent posts to be very dense and contradictory. I am trying to figure out your meaning.

On a practical level are you saying that Catholics have the responsibility to work for Catholic truth in our society in the way we vote, which charities we give to, if a politician - which bills we support, any public demonstrations we attend, policies we implement in our workplace, our participation in professional organizations, etc.? As individuals we should oppose that which is contradictory to our Truth within the framework of our constitutional laws and rights? All the while acknowledging that the same way we have a right to work for Catholic values, we cannot deny someone else the right to work for their particular values? If so, I agree with that. I also think that it is practically impossible for a Catholic to be a politician, a judge, etc. and remain faithful to our Truth while upholding the pluralistic civil values and laws in our country. I know I could not do it.
The position of the Church was laid out by St. Paul in his letter to the Galatians. There is only one truth and only one truth can exist. That truth is what was revealed by Jesus Christ.

To say that there is our truth and their truth is equate two positions as being of equal value and both true. That is impossible unless it’s the same position being expressed by two parties. For example, Muslims and Catholics believe in the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. This truth was revealed by Jesus Christ to both Muslims and Christians. The fact that the Muslims do not give Christ credit for it is irrelevant. Christ is not looking for credit, just for submission to his truth.

We cannot deny anyone the right to work out of their framework. But we may never say that their framework is as valid as our own and has equal rights in society. That is immoral and heresy. It is enough material to separate us from the Catholic Church and to deny us the Eucharist. What we are doing is creating a false communion between two points of vew. We are saying that they should co-exist as equals. In which case, the person who subsribes to this is trying to be in communion withe the truth revealed by Jesus Christ while placating what someone else believes to be true. We cannot do that, because we do not have the right to do that. St. Paul makes it very clear in the first chapter of Galatians. We cannot set out to make people happy at the expense of truth revealed by Christ. What we are allowed to do is let people discover truth on their own time and at their own pace. That is humane and just.

If we take a moral law such as abortion. That is not a Catholic opinion. That is a truth that was revealed by God 4,000 years ago, long before Catholicism existed. It is held in common by Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and many other faiths. God implanted this the truth about the sacredness of human life in the heart of man long before the Church was born. The Church’s job is to remind man of this reality.

Since this law was implanted into human history by God, no human government has the authority to grant permission to kill anyone, with very few exceptions. When Catholics go to the poles and allow politicians to vote for abortion, they abdicate their fidelity to revealed truth and their fidelity to the Commandments. No where do the OT or the NT say that man can abdicate the law of God to civil authority. Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s means just that. Caesar is entitled to that power and authority that is given by divine right. The authority to grant license to kill has never been given to Caesear. Therefore, we cannot accept this as a legitimate exercise of government. It is contrary to revealed truth. If we accept this as legitimate, in the name of pluralism, then we have reduced our own value system to relativism. In which case, we must not receive the Eucharist on Sunday, because we are no longer in full communion with Christ or the Church.

On you work situation, you did the right thing. You treated people with respect, but you did not show support for a lie. We can never be unkind to people and we can never show support for a lie. Same-sex marriages are a lie. The truth is that there are people with same-sex attractions. They have the same rights that other human beings have. No human being has the right to sexual relations with a person of his or her own gender.

GLBT people have the right to work, hold public office, worship, belong to a family, own property, be safe from violence and hate crimes, be treated with courtessy and kindness. They have a right to healthcare, eduction, a home, to be welcome into the Church and to receive the sacraments. They have a right to go to heaven too. Finally, they have a right not to be judged by the rest of us. We can judge an action, not a person. We do not know what is in the heart of a person. Only God knows this and maybe the confessor. That’s maybe.

If you have not read it, I would strongly recommond reading John Paul’s GOSPEL OF LIFE. It gives all of the rules that governments and people of faith must follow. It tells you where you can be lenient and tolerant of pluralism and the limits of pluralism. Like all social pehonomena, this one too has its limits. It must conform to revelation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Personally I’d rather coerce a murderer rather than "persuade"them.The only way to coerce muderers in this instance is to protect the unborn by making it a civil rights issue.
And how has that line of reasoning worked so far?
 
And how has that line of reasoning worked so far?
It’s working-you have eyes to see and ears to hear-this is a battle but we will win the war.Look at the progress being made in the various states and especially within my country.Your secretary of State had the nerve to come to Canada and shake her finger at MY government for refusing to support the G8 In including abortion in women’s health care for 3rd world countries.So it’s working just fine,friend.Rome wasn’t built in a day but built it was.Thanks for your concern,though:)
 
you know, after a few months on these forums the plug your ears and yell “I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you” act is getting a little tired. An honest discussion is not possible when you mistake faith for fact.
Your personal attack upon me has been reported to the moderator.You can challenge my posits all you want but when you attack me personally you cross the line.I suggest you reread the rules of deportment.I had to learn the hard way too.
 
If you have not read it, I would strongly recommond reading John Paul’s GOSPEL OF LIFE. It gives all of the rules that governments and people of faith must follow.
Thank you for the reading recommendation - I will search for this and read it.

If you would permit me to make a recommendation as well. The late Harry Browne’s 1995 book ‘Why Government Doesn’t Work’ is the best book on government that I have ever read.
 
Thank you for the reading recommendation - I will search for this and read it.

If you would permit me to make a recommendation as well. The late Harry Browne’s 1995 book ‘Why Government Doesn’t Work’ is the best book on government that I have ever read.
Thanks, never heard of that one. I’ll look it up and ask my superior for permission to read it. I hope he knows something about it. Otherwise I may not get permission to read it. But thanks for the tip.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
And how has that line of reasoning worked so far?
The number of abortions is actually going down. In the diocese where I’m stationed, which has the dubious honor of sharing second place for the highest number of abortions in the country, we had 39,000 abortions in 2008 and 31,000 in 2009.

We also have a very large contingent of Brothers of Life and Sisters of Life and over 200 Catholic volunteers running pregnancy centers, teaching courses on the Gospel of Life, leading discussion groups on the immorality of the current law, speaking to university and high school students and lobbying the state legislature on a daily basis. We also have a partnership with the Orthodox Jewish community, the Lutherans for LIfe, and the Protestant Pro-Life Movement.

When you have enough people of faith and even those who are not religious, but have a sense of social justice, behind an issue, you can make a great deal of difference. Cardinal O’Connor managed to bring down the number of abortions in NYC by bringing in the Franciscans of the Renewal and founding the Sisters of Life who spend hours every day lobbying legislators, visiting abortionists, and providing services to women seeking abortions.

What we need is the Catholic laity to get behind this and we also need more men and women who would be willing to consecrate their lives as religious Franciscan Brothers of Life or Sisters of Life or Franciscans of the Renewal or Franciscan Brothers of Peace. These are the religious orders that dedicate their entire lives to teaching, preaching and defending the Gospel of Life. They give up property, marriage, family, home, their free will, and even their freedom to proclaim the Incarnation of Christ and its impact on the dignity of human life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
We cannot deny anyone the right to work out of their framework. But we may never say that their framework is as valid as our own and has equal rights in society. That is immoral and heresy.
The values that other people have, that differ from our own, are NOT valid to us, but they are to them. They they do have equal rights in society. That’s not immoral or heresy. It’s having respect for the individual.
It is enough material to separate us from the Catholic Church and to deny us the Eucharist. What we are doing is creating a false communion between two points of vew. We are saying that they should co-exist as equals. In which case, the person who subsribes to this is trying to be in communion withe the truth revealed by Jesus Christ while placating what someone else believes to be true. We cannot do that, because we do not have the right to do that.
Respecting other people’s rights is not enough material to separate us from the Catholic Church. My priests have told me this, and I believe them. We Catholics do not have the right to snuff the rights of others who do not share our beliefs. They ARE our equals. Catholics are not superior because God created all of us equal. What we don’t have the right to do, is infringe our rights on others.
St. Paul makes it very clear in the first chapter of Galatians. We cannot set out to make people happy at the expense of truth revealed by Christ. What we are allowed to do is let people discover truth on their own time and at their own pace. That is humane and just.
Recognizing that those of different religions (or those that lack religion) have the right to their beliefs is not “to make people happy” but it is rather respecting them as individuals who have the right to choose their religion.
If we take a moral law such as abortion. That is not a Catholic opinion. That is a truth that was revealed by God 4,000 years ago, long before Catholicism existed. It is held in common by Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and many other faiths. God implanted this the truth about the sacredness of human life in the heart of man long before the Church was born. The Church’s job is to remind man of this reality.
The law was also revealed to the Jews, long before Catholicism existed. The Jews regard abortion as an abomination but makes exception when the life of the woman is at risk. This is not evil, this is their belief. And they are not less than we are, and we are not “better” than they are. They are a people rich in culture and tradition and are as devoted to God as we are. They deserve respect and dignity, and have the right to practice their faith as we do.
 
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