What are you protesting?

[Benu2007]

GregoryPalamas

I still don’t see how you can think I am wrong for saying that it is by placing our faith in Jesus that we are saved. As I’ve shown in the bible

Why do you get angry with me? I’m not trying to bring you down and I’m sorry if that’s the way it’s come across. In these kinds of debates, as I’m sure you’re well aware of, it’s easy to get harsh on other people. I just want to talk about the truth of Christ with others and you just shut me down after everything I say even though I can back up everything in the Word. If you think I’m wrong then tell me how, but don’t just say I’m wrong.

 

[leonie]

It’s true Jesus conformed to the will of God. However only to the will of God. Jesus spoke out against the pharisees and other religious leaders all the time - one reason why they hated Him. I hardly doubt that throwing over tables in the temple was conforming.

Paul also, in a lot of his letters, is protesting (if you like) against peoples’ beliefs and actions. For example to the Corinthians against their lack of concern about the sexual immorality in their church. He’s also protesting against those who said the gentiles had to be circumcised.

And don’t you realise that by speaking out against protestants like you are, you’re protesting yourself?

By your response, I can see better where the mom in the hs group was coming from. Thank you. I have to admit that this is my second year in this nondenom group and I periodically have difficulties understanding my Protestant friends in the group. It’s been a bit of a culture shock because most of the time I’m with Catholic homeschoolers. The Protestants I have previously associated with have been pretty lukewarm.

I guess my response would be that the this line of reasoning is ill suited. The term “Protestant” was not in rejection of moral difficulties but a title of those rejecting Church Authority. If the Protestants of the Reformation stopped at admonishing the corruption in the Church, I would embrace the term, but they went on to corrupt doctrine, and malign the Church. Paul admonished the Corinthians for their sin, he didn’t leave the Church that Jesus founded.

It’s true that Jesus rejected the Pharisees and the scribes because of their corruption, but he still admonished his disciples to respect the chair of Moses.

But, hey, I am protesting the Reformation! But if I protest the protest, does that make me a protestant?

Truthfully, when I am with my wonderful Protestant homeschool friends, I see their sincerity, their faith, charity, and love for God–I am struck by two emotions: A deep sorrow for the separation of Jesus’ body, and a frustration that so much misunderstanding is out there about the Catholic Church.

 

[reteeks21]

By your response, I can see better where the mom in the hs group was coming from. Thank you. I have to admit that this is my second year in this nondenom group and I periodically have difficulties understanding my Protestant friends in the group. It’s been a bit of a culture shock because most of the time I’m with Catholic homeschoolers. The Protestants I have previously associated with have been pretty lukewarm.

I guess my response would be that the this line of reasoning is ill suited. The term “Protestant” was not in rejection of moral difficulties but a title of those rejecting Church Authority. If the Protestants of the Reformation stopped at admonishing the corruption in the Church, I would embrace the term, but they went on to corrupt doctrine, and malign the Church. Paul admonished the Corinthians for their sin, he didn’t leave the Church that Jesus founded.

It’s true that Jesus rejected the Pharisees and the scribes because of their corruption, but he still admonished his disciples to respect the chair of Moses.

But, hey, I am protesting the Reformation! But if I protest the protest, does that make me a protestant?

Truthfully, when I am with my wonderful Protestant homeschool friends, I see their sincerity, their faith, charity, and love for God–I am struck by two emotions: A deep sorrow for the separation of Jesus’ body, and a frustration that so much misunderstanding is out there about the Catholic Church.

Get your facts straight. No one, especially Luther, called themselves Protestants. That term was used by European monarchs (especially the Germans) as a way to show their refusal to be under the RCC’s temporal power anymore. Luther was disgusted that he would use his simple attempt at reform as a way to start conflicts and major divisions.

 

[leonie]

Get your facts straight. No one, especially Luther, called themselves Protestants. That term was used by European monarchs (especially the Germans) as a way to show their refusal to be under the RCC’s temporal power anymore. Luther was disgusted that he would use his simple attempt at reform as a way to start conflicts and major divisions.

okay, I’d admit some of my Reformation history is a little fuzzy. I have trouble reading it because it’s hard to find an unbiad account.

Could you give me a link for this?

But, I imagine most Protestants accept the term readily.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Get your facts straight. No one, especially Luther, called themselves Protestants. That term was used by European monarchs (especially the Germans) as a way to show their refusal to be under the RCC’s temporal power anymore. Luther was disgusted that he would use his simple attempt at reform as a way to start conflicts and major divisions.

If Luther was disgusted why did he consistently call the Pope the AntiChrist? If Luther was digusted then explain his open letter to the German Princes commending their efforts and tell me what it means. If Luther was disgusted why did he approve the the killing of 130,000 peasants when they revolted? If Luther was disgusted why did Lutherans murder hundreds of Catholics in Rome?

CDL

 

[reteeks21]

okay, I’d admit some of my Reformation history is a little fuzzy. I have trouble reading it because it’s hard to find an unbiad account.

Could you give me a link for this?

But, I imagine most Protestants accept the term readily.

^ a b Hillerbrand, Hans J. “Martin Luther: Indulgences and salvation,” Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2007.

^ Bainton, Roland. Here I Stand: a Life of Martin Luther. New York: Penguin, 1995, 60; Brecht, Martin. Martin Luther. tr. James L. Schaaf, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985–93, 1:182;

Kittelson, James. Luther The Reformer. Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress Publishing House, 1986),104.

Schaff, Philip. History of the Christian Church. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1910, 7:99; Polack, W.G. The Story of Luther. St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1931, 45.

These are just a few places to start. I am a history teacher, and I will be glad to look up some more references for you if you would like. And you are right: most Protestants would accept that term to define themsleves. Since I have learned more about it I have been more reticent to use it. Unfortunately, I have to use it on here to distinguish myself for others. Sometimes that seems like an automatic strike against me, but hey, differences of opinion are to be expected.

 

[c659smith]

Did you not read the passages I gave you? They clearly point that the way to God is by faith. It’s not by eating the Eucharist. The Eucharist is important because we do it to remember Christ’s sacrifice. But taking it doesn’t actually give eternal life. It is faith that does.

Then we must live for God by walking in the Spirit I could give you a million more passages on that. Sadly when I talk to the more hard out Catholics, the emphasis is not on living for God but trying to tell me that the bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood. That Mary was a virgin her whole life (the Bible even says she was not, read Matt 1:24-25), that we should pray to Mary so that she can talk to God on our behalf. This is not Biblical either (John 16:26-27). And pennance! How can pennance be biblical. That implies that we have to work to get to heaven. It’s a free gift as those scriptures made it claer.

You guys say you know scripture well but you don’t. If you actually read the bible and took it as a whole then you would see why it is pointless to go on arguing as you do. But you don’t you take scriptures and twist them to fit them with your own beliefs and miss the important points of actually living for God.

Matt 1:24-25 Until she bore a son: the evangelist Matthew is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus.
The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.
So this does not help your point that Mary was not a perpetual Virgin.

These things I have spoken to you in proverbs. The hour cometh when I will no longer speak to you in proverbs, but will show you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day, you shall ask in my name: and I say not to you that I will ask the Father for you. 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and am come into the world: again I leave the world and I go to the Father. 29 His disciples say to him: Behold, now thou speakest plainly and speakest no proverb. 30 Now we know that thou knowest all things and thou needest not that any man should ask thee. By this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 31 Jesus answered them: Do you now believe? 32 Behold, the hour cometh, and it is now come, that you shall be scattered every man to his own and shall leave me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress. But have confidence. I have overcome the world.

I do not understand what the above has to do with pennance?

However the beginning of John does:

For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin and of justice and of judgment. He will convince the world of sin, etc… The Holy Ghost, by his coming brought over many thousands, first, to a sense of their sin in not believing in Christ. Secondly, to a conviction of the justice of Christ, now sitting at the right hand of his Father. And thirdly, to a right apprehension of the judgment prepared for them that choose to follow Satan, who is already judged and condemned.

The above speaks of sin, why is Jesus speaking of sin here for once the resurrection and the Ascension has ocurred your response was we are all saved and need to do nothing once saved always saved. Remember there are 3 points here not one but 3 on sin.

Remember when reading this that the Apostles have not yet received the Holy Ghost yet. What is written later in the bible of these accounts describes sin and what must be done.

 

[Benu2007]

Matt 1:24-25 Until she bore a son: the evangelist Matthew is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus.
The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.
So this does not help your point that Mary was not a perpetual Virgin.

These things I have spoken to you in proverbs. The hour cometh when I will no longer speak to you in proverbs, but will show you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day, you shall ask in my name: and I say not to you that I will ask the Father for you. 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and am come into the world: again I leave the world and I go to the Father. 29 His disciples say to him: Behold, now thou speakest plainly and speakest no proverb. 30 Now we know that thou knowest all things and thou needest not that any man should ask thee. By this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 31 Jesus answered them: Do you now believe? 32 Behold, the hour cometh, and it is now come, that you shall be scattered every man to his own and shall leave me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress. But have confidence. I have overcome the world.

I do not understand what the above has to do with pennance?

However the beginning of John does:

For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin and of justice and of judgment. He will convince the world of sin, etc… The Holy Ghost, by his coming brought over many thousands, first, to a sense of their sin in not believing in Christ. Secondly, to a conviction of the justice of Christ, now sitting at the right hand of his Father. And thirdly, to a right apprehension of the judgment prepared for them that choose to follow Satan, who is already judged and condemned.

The above speaks of sin, why is Jesus speaking of sin here for once the resurrection and the Ascension has ocurred your response was we are all saved and need to do nothing once saved always saved. Remember there are 3 points here not one but 3 on sin…

I wasn’t quoting John to talk about pennance. I was saying if Jeus won’t talk to the Father on our behalf because we can go straight to the Father, then we certainly won’t have to pray to Mary so that she can make requests on our behalf.

Believe me. I certainly do not believe in the saying “once saved always saved”, It frustrates me so much when I see people who call themselves Christians but then don’t live for God. When we truely live by faith then the law is naturally written on our hearts Romans 3:31. I am not saying that when we become a Christian that we never sin. However we have made God our Lord and not our sin nature. We are to walk in the Spirit. Galations 5 is an excellent chapter on this.

Think about it this way. If you marry your wife but don’t love her but just try not to do things like not commit adultery or not lie to her or be mean to her etc the marriage will probably still not go very well. However if you love your wife, then anything that you could do upset her won’t even come to mind because you love her. That’s how Christianity is with God. Galations 5:6 says “what is important is faith expressing itself through love”. So when we have faith we love God and thus satisfying our sin nature (lusts of the flesh) won’t be a desire.

 

[Benu2007]

Truthfully, when I am with my wonderful Protestant homeschool friends, I see their sincerity, their faith, charity, and love for God–I am struck by two emotions: A deep sorrow for the separation of Jesus’ body, and a frustration that so much misunderstanding is out there about the Catholic Church.

But don’t you see that living by faith and loving God like your protestant friends do (and I’m sure you do to) is why God accepts us. Because we put our faith in Christ. Why have sorrow when they are saved and pleasing God?

Also the reformers and all other protestants did not leave the Church. Since Christ is the head of the Church and protestants like Catholics have made Christ their Lord (or Head) then that means they are part of the Church. The church is not an organisation run by man but by God. There is one Church and the pope is not the head it is Christ, who we all call Lord. The reformers were not protesting againgst the church, in fact they were protesting against corruption in the Church, such as the indulgences.

 

[Benu2007]

If Luther was disgusted why did he consistently call the Pope the AntiChrist? If Luther was digusted then explain his open letter to the German Princes commending their efforts and tell me what it means. If Luther was disgusted why did he approve the the killing of 130,000 peasants when they revolted? If Luther was disgusted why did Lutherans murder hundreds of Catholics in Rome?
CDL

You don’t get it. Most protestants (and I hate that name) don’t look up to Luther as a leader or founder of our Church. He just lead the way in pointing out to the world that it is by faith that we are saved. I know he got things wrong and I don’t look to his life to pattern mine after. I look to Christ as He established the Church and He is my Lord.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

You don’t get it. Most protestants (and I hate that name) don’t look up to Luther as a leader or founder of our Church. He just lead the way in pointing out to the world that it is by faith that we are saved. I know he got things wrong and I don’t look to his life to pattern mine after. I look to Christ as He established the Church and He is my Lord.

If He is truely your Lord then I encourage you to become part of His Body.

CDL

 

[reteeks21]

If He is truely your Lord then I encourage you to become part of His Body.

CDL

Wow. So, if he doesn’t do what you think he needs to do, what are the consequences?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Wow. So, if he doesn’t do what you think he needs to do, what are the consequences?

God is the judge. I’m simply encouraging him and others from an act of gratitude and as a natural yearning that if they do know the Lord who died to bring His Church into existence that they would eagerly become part of it. I imagine that our Lord is grieved when people reject so great a gift. When the Pantokrater returns will he find those for whom He died faithful? Some yes. Some no. I wonder how He will judge? In any event it’s in His hands.

CDL

 

[Benu2007]

God is the judge. I’m simply encouraging him and others from an act of gratitude and as a natural yearning that if they do know the Lord who died to bring His Church into existence that they would eagerly become part of it. I imagine that our Lord is grieved when people reject so great a gift. When the Pantokrater returns will he find those for whom He died faithful? Some yes. Some no. I wonder how He will judge? In any event it’s in His handsCDL

But I don’t reject His gift. I believe He is my Lord and that He died for me. It is then showed by the way I live if I truely have made Christ my Lord or if it is just idol talk. You can tell those that truly are Christians because they don’t live to satisfy the lusts of the flesh, which produces all kinds of sin in our lives Galations 5:19-23. It’s impossible to just stop sinning as we still have a sin nature, but when we live by faith we live to please the Spirit and not our sin nature. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood.

 

[c659smith]

But I don’t reject His gift. I believe He is my Lord and that He died for me. It is then showed by the way I live if I truely have made Christ my Lord or if it is just idol talk. You can tell those that truly are Christians because they don’t live to satisfy the lusts of the flesh, which produces all kinds of sin in our lives Galations 5:19-23. It’s impossible to just stop sinning as we still have a sin nature, but when we live by faith we live to please the Spirit and not our sin nature. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood.

Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53). Are these words of Jesus from John 6:53 are to be taken literally
Where do you get that? From the Old Testament – the manna, the Passover, the sacrifice as it’s described on Calvary as it’s initiated in the Upper Room and as he states right here in verse 51. “If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” Jews stop, wait a second. Hold the phone. “John, what do you mean ‘my flesh?’” Verse 52, “The Jews then disputed among themselves saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” Cannibalism, paganism, barbarism, sin in the highest degree.

So did Jesus say to them, “I didn’t mean it, guys. I was just kind of, you know, using hyperbole or metaphor.” No. He actually intensifies the scandal. He actually raises the obstacle even higher. “He said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood,’ which Leviticus condemns, the drinking of blood, ‘unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.’”

He said that four times in four different ways.

In verse 60, “Many of His disciples when they heard it said, ‘This is a hard saying. Who can listen to it?’” That is an understatement. “Jesus, however, knowing in Himself that His disciples murmured at it” (the disciples, the followers, the spiritual proteges, not just the crowd now, the disciples themselves are taking offense at this and murmuring and grumbling), “said to them, ‘Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the son of man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.’”

What words? That you’ve got to eat my flesh and drink my blood, those words.

In 63 we discover why Christ’s flesh and blood will be so powerful and animating for supernatural life. Verse 66, “After this, many of His disciples drew back…” We get the impression that the vast majority of them said, “This is just too much.” “…and no longer went about with him. And Jesus turned to the twelve;” he didn’t apologize. He didn’t say, “Now that we’re down to twelve, I’ll tell you what I really meant.” He didn’t say that at all. In fact he is perfectly willing for this obstacle to remain scandalous even to the twelve. “Do you also wish to go away?” But “Simon Peter answered him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go?’” Almost implying we would leave if there was somebody else that we could trust more than you because what you said is rather baffling. But he says, “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

So we have reason to believe that this sacrifice of the New Covenant Passover begun in the Upper Room and consummated on Calvary and ultimately as 1st Corinthians 5 suggests continued and celebrated as a climactic communion on the altars of the Church around the world when we receive the Eucharist in Communion. All of this is right from the Bible but you’ve got to know your Bible. You’ve got to know John. You’ve got to know Matthew, Mark and Luke. You’ve got to know Exodus. You’ve got to know the Psalms. You’ve got to know Corinthians and you also have to know Revelation.

 

[c659smith]

But I don’t reject His gift. I believe He is my Lord and that He died for me. It It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood.

How do we know this, well we now this also from the 2nd and 3rd generation Apostles. We know this from what the early Church Fathers wrote. Please make note of the names and years. I am sure most you will know.
Irenaeus

If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood? (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh that is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (ibid., 5:2).

Clement of Alexandria

“Eat my flesh,” [Jesus] says, “and drink my blood.” The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

terturtullian

There is not a soul that can at all procure salvation except it believe while it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh that actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed. . . . The flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul may also be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).

Origen

Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way. . . . Now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: “My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink” [John 6:56] (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).

Council of Nicaea I

It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters *, whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the eucharistic sacrifice] should give the body of Christ to them that do offer [it] (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).

Aphraahat the Persian Sage

After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).

Hippolytus

“And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table” [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper * (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).

Cyprian of Carthage

He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, “Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul (ibid., 22:6, 9).**

 

[c659smith]

But I don’t reject His gift. I believe He is my Lord and that He died for me. It is then showed by the way I live if I truely have made Christ my Lord or if it is just idol talk. You can tell those that truly are Christians because they don’t live to satisfy the lusts of the flesh, which produces all kinds of sin in our lives Galations 5:19-23. It’s impossible to just stop sinning as we still have a sin nature, but when we live by faith we live to please the Spirit and not our sin nature. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood.

more early Church Fathers,
Now I can do this all day. so I have given you from Jesus’s lips to the Apostles to the Early Church Fathers

Ignatius roundly declares that . . . the bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup his blood. Clearly he intends this realism to be taken strictly, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ denial of the reality of Christ’s body. . . . Irenaeus teaches that the bread and wine are really the Lord’s body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more impressive because he produces it quite incidentally while refuting the Gnostic and Docetic rejection of the Lord’s real humanity. . . .

Hippolytus speaks of “the body and the blood” through which the Church is saved, and Tertullian regularly describes the bread as “the Lord’s body.” The converted pagan, he remarks, “feeds on the richness of the Lord’s body, that is, on the Eucharist.” The realism of his theology comes to light in the argument, based on the intimate relation of body and soul, that just as in baptism the body is washed with water so that the soul may be cleansed, so in the Eucharist “the flesh feeds upon Christ’s body and blood so that the soul may be filled with God.” Clearly his assumption is that the Savior’s body and blood are as real as the baptismal water. Cyprian’s attitude is similar. Lapsed Christians who claim communion without doing penance, he declares, “do violence to his body and blood, a sin more heinous against the Lord with their hands and mouths than when they denied him.” Later he expatiates on the terrifying consequences of profaning the sacrament, and the stories he tells confirm that he took the Real Presence literally (ibid., 197–98, 211–12).
Ignatius of Antioch

I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ, which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh that suffered for our sins and that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

---

Justin Martyr

We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it except one who believes our teaching to be true and has been washed in the washing that is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food that has been made into the Eucharist by the eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).*

 

[wisdomseeker]

But I don’t reject His gift. I believe He is my Lord and that He died for me. It is then showed by the way I live if I truely have made Christ my Lord or if it is just idol talk. You can tell those that truly are Christians because they don’t live to satisfy the lusts of the flesh, which produces all kinds of sin in our lives Galations 5:19-23. It’s impossible to just stop sinning as we still have a sin nature, but when we live by faith we live to please the Spirit and not our sin nature. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood.

and how exactly do you believe in Him Jesus Christ?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

But I don’t reject His gift. I believe He is my Lord and that He died for me. It is then showed by the way I live if I truely have made Christ my Lord or if it is just idol talk. You can tell those that truly are Christians because they don’t live to satisfy the lusts of the flesh, which produces all kinds of sin in our lives Galations 5:19-23. It’s impossible to just stop sinning as we still have a sin nature, but when we live by faith we live to please the Spirit and not our sin nature. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that bread and wine actually turns into flesh and blood.

I must have been misinformed. I thought that you were not Catholic. When did you join?

CDL

 

[Benu2007]

I must have been misinformed. I thought that you were not Catholic. When did you join?CDL

Jesus is my Lord. I believe that He died for my sin and paid the penalty for me. I know I’m a sinner, we all are. Every person who ever walked the Earth, with the exception of Christ, is a sinner. That includes Mary. But He paid the price for us by dying on the cross. Read Hebrews 10:10. He bore our sins and died for us. That’s it. We’re are made right with Him when we believe this. Read Romans 10:10. His sacrifice did everything for us there is nothing else left we can do to earn eternal life but trust Him that when we die we will be with Him in paradise. Why do you argue against me when this is what I’ve been saying all along. I have produced tons of scriptures backing this up. If you look back a couple of pages you will find 11 of them in one post alone.

I love God for what He did for me, He saved me and I was powerless to help Him do it. He died where I should have. Now I walk in His Spirirt. I live no longer live to please my sin nature but I live to please God, obviously I’m not perfect, but I’ve done away with trying to satsfy my sin nature. This is what the whole New Testament is about. Especially Pauls letters. If you read them you will see what I’m talking about.

But you don’t. Instead you sit around saying that I am not saved simply because I have not subjected myself to the Pope’s authority. Christ is the head of the Church, everyone is under Him. We are all part of one Christian Church, there is no Catholic Church and there are no Protestant churches according to God. Why do you all have to keep fighting me? I am your brother in Christ. I am already saved.

If you say say that my quote in my last post, that everyone has commented on, makes me a Catholic then fine, call me a Catholic. But who cares what I am. I belong to Christ and so do you if you’ve accepted Him as your offering for sin, Read Isiah 53:10.