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Norseman82
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Didn’t Christ say otherwise when speaking of “eunuchs for the kingdom” when He said that not everyone can accept this teaching, only those to whom it was given?
What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?
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Bruised_Reed
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You don’t know that. The church doesn’t teach that either.
Naw. the not listening came first. That’s why there is a movement, why there needed to be a movement.
Are you seriously unaware that LGBT persons can be legally discriminated for housing and jobs. Saying that they are not is the lie.
Discrimination is limiting LGBTQ people’s access to rental housing
Housing discrimination faced by transgender people and same-sex couples can affect where they live and the resources available to them.
2017 Workplace Equality Fact Sheet | Out & Equal
outandequal.org
https://www.hrc.org/resources/housi...you-need-to-know-about-property-ownership-and
That’s after a quick google search.
You’re right, there isn’t! But I’m not seeing love instead.
To say someone is whining or self-pitying is so dismissive. Basically, it’s, “lalalala I don’t want to listen to something I don’t understand and doesn’t affect me.”
You might have something new and different to offer but you have to listen first. Really listen. And not just once and think you know it all. Most people don’t do that so we spin in circles not coming up with solutions to all kinds of issues. But if you aren’t going to listen then, yeah, maybe step away from the conversation. You aren’t answering the OP’s question anyway. I would be much better at answering this question if I invested more time in this and if you haven’t then you will repeat ad nauseum the only ideas you already know; it’s like having a hammer and treating everything like a nail. We all need better tool kits.
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Gab123
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Realize that eunuchs were men whowere castrated to remove the sexual drive. Those who make themselves eunuchs in the sense that Christ was speaking were those who gave up their right to procreate and have a family for the sake of working entirely for the missions of the Church.
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Gab123
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No baby is born sexually attracted to anything. Sexual attraction to children is a psychological disorder. It is just as strong as sexual attraction between the same sexes.These things are formed later in life.
Many would say that the complaint about loneliness and living alone because they aren’t allowed to have sex with other men is ridiculous and shameful. People can have friends and companions and family without having sex with them.
The world is the world. but The Church is simply here to show people entrenched in sin the way to salvation. Though people are free to not listen. from the point of view of the Church and Jesus Christ, the political gay movement is a Satanic deception, normalizing what the Bible calls an abomination…
If by “love: you mean acceptance of the gay lifestyle, then you are polluting the word love. True Christian love is the truth: The gay lifestyle is a serious sin. Repent and believe the gospel is all the Church can say. As far as helping people with psychological disorders, addictions, sexual obsessions, yes; therapy should be encouraged, but the sanctifying grace we get from a good Confession and the Holy Eucharist are the route to go for the real medicine for a complete transformation from slavery to freedom…
I answered the question earlier. As for listening, if you unmask much of what some people are saying, all they want is the Church to change its teachings on homosexuality, which is not going to happen.
I think the Church needs to raise the volume on the reality of sin and hell, especially since those trying to rationalize and normalize the gay lifestyle inside the Church and supporting gay marriage; it is a scandal, especially to children; and we know what Jesus said about those who scandalize, and the millstone and the deep blue sea…
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Prodigal_Son
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Homosexual attractions certainly form at the same exact time that heterosexual attractions form. The appeal to the time when some attraction develops does not help us establish the attraction as disordered or not.
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Bruised_Reed
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That’s what I said you don’t know. Science doesn’t know and neither does the church.
It’s more that that. It’s not about sex even.
The OP has reinforced that here. You aren’t paying attention.
And continue to be ignorant.
Has anyone on this thread disputed this?
Nope. You are studiously ignoring the OP .
You really didn’t.
I know some do want change bit others want to live with the church’s teaching and asking about where they fit.
The rest is
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Gab123
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Don’t be fooled. Just like they claim science doesn’t know when life begins thus they rationalize abortion. It’s all a lie. Don’t be fooled…
So then what’s the problem? Have a friendship then. The Church is all for friendships. Just don’t have sex with anyone who is not your lawfully wedded Wife.
Are you saying the Church should teach that sexual intercourse between two people of the same sex is good and normal and should be blessed? Would that make you happy?
Yes Idid. You must have missed it.
Yes, there are people inside the Church who want to corrupt Church teaching. The Bible calls these people wolves and false teachers. As for where somebody that same sex attraction fits in the Church, they fit in just like anybody else:
Go to confession, struggle against your sins, be transformed one day at a time, die to yourself, read Scripture, don’t miss mass, be busy with the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, avoid Los the near occasions of sin that are especially the weaknesses you struggle with; cultivate a daily prayer life; the Church highly recommend the Holy Rosary, being that it comes with 15 promises for those who are faithful to praying the Rosary.
If you are struggling with same sex attraction, make that struggle your main intentions when you pray the Rosary; you’ll see how the Blessed Mother will help you. Have recourse to your guardian angel; that disordered attraction will be under control and replaced for an attraction for heaven and the things of God…
it’s all about becoming detached from the things of world. Not about putting rainbows inside a church and false compassion. one thing that might help is watch a documentary on the visions at Fatima, or St Faustina and how God reminded people of the reality of hell as a consequence for sin.
Life is not a game, it has a purpose; you could be in a morgue next week at this time. we have to be prepared, not dabbling with things the Church teaches are mortally sinful. Just imagine you’re having a conversation with Padre Pio and imagine what he would say about the gay lifestyle and pride parades…
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Gab123
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Puberty is a monumental time of change occurring along with outside influences. Being that the world is saturated with smut these days, youngsters are exposed and dabbling with all kinds of sexual sins at a young age, while the damage of pornography can be devastating on a young mind. We have a fallen nature because of original sin; thus the rotten seeds that we are exposed to and plant in our hearts and minds can take root and produce rotten fruit, and all sorts of misuse of the beautiful gift of sexuality through which God perpetuates the human race.
Thus Pope John Paul II called it the Culture of a Death, from abortion and contraception to sexual abominations and the break down of the natural human family. It’s all Satanic really; Thus the need to stay close to the Church and the sacraments, and not filling on’es mind with the rotten seeds being shown through movies, music and perverted entertainments…
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Prodigal_Son
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The toxic smut I saw at age 11 was pictures of athletes playing sports. I assure you the images were perfectly appropriate, but my mind wasn’t. I had never seen anything vaguely resembling porn.
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Gab123
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outside influences are many , circumstances, father son relationships, friends, experiences, upbringing, exposure to porn all mixed with plain old temptations and demonic suggestions lead one down many different roads. Opposites usually attract thus when a male child has a heavy feminine influence via friends etc and a harsh father figure or can also play a role. Psychology can be shaped in many different ways.
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Prodigal_Son
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Thank you for the list. My point was SIMPLY that same-sex attraction develops at precisely the same time that opposite-sex attraction does. Do you disagree?
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Thorolfr
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There is mounting evidence that the differences between gay men and straight men are more than just psychological. Take this which came out last year:Bruised_Reed:
Don’t be fooled. Just like they claim science doesn’t know when life begins thus they rationalize abortion. It’s all a lie. Don’t be fooled…
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ether-youre-gay-or-straight-from-a-photograph
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Gab123
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Again, don’t be fooled. Even if somebody is born with a hormonal imbalance affecting sexual orientation, then treat it as an imbalance not as normal. That’s where therapy would come in. The problem is that today the militant gay agenda is to try to convince and force everybody to confirm that it is all just wholesome and normal.
no doubt it is a cross, but crosses are there to sanctify us; and we all have crosses…
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DarkLight
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I think the flip side here is - people who don’t believe they are called to marriage do face suspicion of exactly this.
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Thorolfr
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What kind of therapy would you suggest? Over the years, all sorts of therapies have been tried on gay people, but they usually weren’t successful. But let’s look at some “aversion therapy” with apomorphine and electric shocks that was described by Dr. Nathaniel McConaghy in a paper that he delivered to the American Psychiatric Association in 1970:
That’s well within my lifetime. I could probably have had some “apomorphine therapy” and electroshock therapy if I had wanted. But I’m glad that I didn’t.
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Norseman82
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???
Isn’t what you posted the definition of celibacy? I don’t see where we disagree?
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Gab123
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I would begin with sanctifying grace and then devotion to the Holy Rosary; remember temptations will always be around, the goal is to have a shield and Strength to not fall back into temptation. st Michael is always depicted stepping on a live writhing Satan, who is not dead but stepped on and kept in chains; thus we must do the same, step on the temptations and keep them in chains.
as for other therapies, I have heard good things about some. here is a link:
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Norseman82
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I don’t need to look to friends in that situartion, since I myself am one of those who are still alone after decades of seeking a spouse, so let me assure you that this is not the type of “attention” that helps. In fact, that type of “attention” (under the guise of a “vocation”) is what contributes to the failure to find a spouse in the first place because it discourages people from making themselves available. All it does is rub salt in the wounds and serve as a reminder of such failure.
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catholic1seeks
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Which is exactly why I have chosen to stop interacting with @Gab123 on this thread. This user has proven himself/herself unhelpful. Gab has proven himself to be not listening to my actual concerns. He’s being dismissive, using straw men, and just not listening. I wonder if he ever looked into Eve Tushnet, as I have requested over and over again.
He can choose to waste his time here.
But maybe I can move this thread in a more positive direction:
It is clear from people like Gab that one thing our churches must do, at the very least, is simply be open, receptive, and empathetic – instead of dismissive and lacking compassion. That he calls me “whiny” and “self-pitiful” proves he doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get the difficulty that LGBT people have in the church. Sure enough, all people have crosses, but THIS thread is about LGBT people, and about minimizing their unnecessary crosses in the church.
One way forward, going off of Eve Tushnet’s work, is for the church to revive or better emphasize other ways of forming meaningful relationships, communal life, and lives of self-giving beyond romantic love. This includes reframing our understanding of friendship: Would anyone think it a big deal to move 500 miles away for a better job, and leave your best friend behind? Probably not. But maybe it should be the other way around: Maybe our friendships could have a sort of priority.
Going on another limb: The Church could even ritualize modes of living like committed (non-sexual) friendships by forming blessings (as often happened in the church’s past, and which sometimes still happens in Eastern churches by the forming of two “brothers” or “sisters”).
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catholic1seeks
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But also, I feel motivated to form a general response to this dismissive attitude that gay people should just be quiet and take up their crosses. I’ve been clear I’m not trying to re-define the church’s teaching on marriage and sex. But to just pass this off as a cross to be celibate severely minimizes the very real human need for intimacy, companionship, and even sex.
Yes, we are all called to form temperate and chase lives. But the desire for sexual union is a strong one, and it’s a human one. Our very physiological and psychological build is part and parcel of our sexual nature. So no, we can’t just say “Carry your cross,” and be along your way.
The Church cannot merely offer a vocation of “NO!” Saying you can’t love someone romantically, or enter into marriage with the person you love, or even never have sex might be real consequences of a gay person trying to faithfully follow Christ and the Church.
But if you leave it that, with no way forward, then you have made a VERY unconvincing and unintelligible case for a gay person to remain in the Catholic Church.
Yes, we are all called to form temperate and chase lives. But the desire for sexual union is a strong one, and it’s a human one. Our very physiological and psychological build is part and parcel of our sexual nature. So no, we can’t just say “Carry your cross,” and be along your way.
The Church cannot merely offer a vocation of “NO!” Saying you can’t love someone romantically, or enter into marriage with the person you love, or even never have sex might be real consequences of a gay person trying to faithfully follow Christ and the Church.
But if you leave it that, with no way forward, then you have made a VERY unconvincing and unintelligible case for a gay person to remain in the Catholic Church.
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