What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[Gab123]

It is clear from people like Gab that one thing our churches must do, at the very least, is simply be open, receptive, and empathetic – instead of dismissive and lacking compassion

I sincerely apologize to you if I came across as dismissive and lacking compassion for you and your crosses in life; I think the problem is That there are too many people outside and inside the Church who quietly are working to try to change Church teaching on an issue that involves grave sin. I think the best solution for those experiencing SSA and re lonely is to find a friend of the opposite sex that is dealing with SSA. That way you can cultivate a real friendship without the sexual temptation that would be an abomination. You might even find yourself falling in love with that person and her with you, leading to marriage once you both look at each other beyond skin deep.

The Church must take a strong stand against the insidious gradualism tha has organically subverted the minds of people to normalize and even bless same sex sexual relationships. It’s just like the issue of artificial contraception. Up until 1930 all Christian denominations knew and taught that artificial contraception wa a great evil; it was the Anglican Church that first allowed it for “extreme cases”, but within a few years that changed and 30 years later it became mainstream and practiced by most, even though it is linked to ushering I the age of promiscuity, broken families, soaring crime rates, abortion, disease, cohabitation, and ultimately the acceptance of same sex unions. After all, if one can have sex without the responsibility of children, then why not two human beings of the same sex?

So the brainwashing is coming from Satan. If people are lonely, find a friend and companionship; just don’t misuse the gift of sexuality. yes, it can be hard, but I can think of many heavier crosses than not having sex…

But if you leave it that, with no way forward, then you have made a VERY unconvincing and unintelligible case for a gay person to remain in the Catholic Church.

Try Jesus Christ and salvation as a reason to remain in the Church. The problem is one has to move from a self-centered life, to a God-centered life. The fact that someone would leave the Church because of the Church;s teaching on sexuality simply shows they have no faith in Jesus Christ or His Church…

 

[DarkLight]

I think the best solution for those experiencing SSA and re lonely is to find a friend of the opposite sex that is dealing with SSA. That way you can cultivate a real friendship without the sexual temptation that would be an abomination. You might even find yourself falling in love with that person and her with you, leading to marriage once you both look at each other beyond skin deep.

Couple of issues here.

One, that would require people with SSA to advertise it and to be in an area with a high enough catholic AND SSA population. That’s going to be pretty uncommon.

Two, most friendships aren’t pure pairings. They can be, but small groups are probably more common. So you’re never going to remove the temptation issue unless both parties never want to involve any third person.

Three, I guarantee that would generate major accusations of scandal. A man and a woman having a relationship like that is not likely to be innocently viewed.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Try Jesus Christ and salvation as a reason to remain in the Church. The problem is one has to move from a self-centered life, to a God-centered life. The fact that someone would leave the Church because of the Church;s teaching on sexuality simply shows they have no faith in Jesus Christ or His Church…

Again, I don’t see how anything I’ve said negates Jesus Christ and salvation. All life in the Church is rooted in this. That doesn’t mean we don’t get creative in how we live this out in day-to-day life. Monastics live in community, for example. There are reasons for this. Is monasticism essential to life in the Church and salvation? No. Not everyone lives in a monastic community; nevertheless, at one point in the church’s history, people thought it an important means for Christians to flourish as Christians in just the way that monasticism allows.

The same is true for other vocations and ways of living as Christian. There is no “one way.” But all I’m asking is for the church to consider ways for LGBT people to flourish in the church — not simply be told “NO!” to marriage.

That’s all I’m asking for LGBT people. Ways to flourish as Christians in the Catholic Church. And I’m going to say it again, in hopes you will better understand: please look up Eve Tushnet’s videos. Please go back and try watching the one I posted.

And you may end up seeing how it’s not enough to just say “No sex; follow Christ.” We are human and have multiple needs; if sex, marriage, companionship, love, romance, family are to be forbidden for homosexual individuals, then there must be ways to flourish otherwise. We are not angels – mere spirits. We are bodies too, meant to live in community, to love each other (not only God), to serve each other. God said Adam wasn’t meant to live alone. Human nature means living in society.

 

[Gab123]

Three, I guarantee that would generate major accusations of scandal. A man and a woman having a relationship like that is not likely to be innocently viewed.

Who has to know? These days with the Internet it’s easy to meet people and start a friendship online. If two Catholics committed to their faith, one a man and the other a woman, both with SSA, became a couple, there is your solution. They can live like brother and sister, share companionship, fit in without causing a scandal or bad example for children, and have the benefit of actually falling in love with one another as persons, and even leading to marriage in children. st. terese’s parents were just canonized recently; when they got married they decided to live as brother and sister, until their priest told them to be fruitful and multiply, and they had three girls all of whom became nuns.

The problem is that we can become too attached to worldly attractions and obsessing about the things of this world instead of focusing on the eternal. If you knew that you were going to die this afternoon and be judged later this day, you wouldn’t spend so much time wasting time on worldly attachments or obsessing about our sexuality. The fact is that there is someone living right now that has no clue that he’s going to die in 3 hours and be in a morgue tomorrow being prepared for a funeral. All this worry about feelings and about the future is really the devil’s workshop, for we know not if we will be here tomorrow… Live your life today, not tomorrow. As Catholics we can ot be thinking like pagans, because we have been given much and know the purpose of life…

One helpful mindset comes from St Jose Maria Escriva, who said that we should remind ourselves every day that it’s only a matter of time that our body will die, turn green and be eaten away worms. We’re only passing through folks; don’t get tangled up with the world the devil and the flesh…

 

[DarkLight]

Who has to know? These days with the Internet it’s easy to meet people and start a friendship online. If two Catholics committed to their faith, one a man and the other a woman, both with SSA, became a couple, there is your solution. They can live like brother and sister, share companionship, fit in without causing a scandal or bad example for children, and have the benefit of actually falling in love with one another as persons, and even leading to marriage in children. st. terese’s parents were just canonized recently; when they got married they decided to live as brother and sister, until their priest told them to be fruitful and multiply, and they had three girls all of whom became nuns.

Are you proposing they only talk online? Because otherwise people will know.

 

[DarkLight]

The problem is that we can become too attached to worldly attractions and obsessing about the things of this world instead of focusing on the eternal. If you knew that you were going to die this afternoon and be judged later this day, you wouldn’t spend so much time wasting time on worldly attachments or obsessing about our sexuality

I’m not sure this is always a particularly good argument. If I knew I was going to die this afternoon I wouldn’t worry about getting a better job either. But that’s a perfectly fine thing for me to think about, because if I don’t die soon I do need something to pay the bills and save enough to weather any issues and contribute to my parish and all that.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The problem is that we can become too attached to worldly attractions and obsessing about the things of this world instead of focusing on the eternal.

And yet God created this world too…

He made us with our desires, need for love and intimacy, need for family, society, and companionship.

 

[Gab123]

We are bodies too, meant to live in community, to love each other (not only God), to serve each other. God said Adam wasn’t meant to live alone. Human nature means living in society.

Adam wasn’t meant to disobey God’s command either, but he did, thus we’re all suffering the consequence of Adam and Eve’s fall. You have your weaknesses, I have mine; sin is a disorder and we all have to deal with it. You talk about the cross of not having sex and romance; some people are born blind, others are born without legs; tomorrow someone is going to be raped, others are homeless, some have lost children, others starving to death, homeless, dealing with cancer, born in a slum; Jesus Christ’s wooden cross was not only heavy, He was nailed to it, abandoned by his friends, tortured and scorned, punched, kicked, spat upon, rejected by His own people, slandered, torn to shreds and died a terrible death in public in front of a crowd that mocked Him.

If you want to find happiness, one can find it in serving others less fortunate than you. Instead of focusing on desiring companionship and lamenting not having a romantic life, maybe you need to listen to what God is calling from you. Maybe God permitted you to be the way you are because he’s calling you to serve Him outside of a romantic relationship…

Since you are single, maybe you should visit Fr. Richard HoLung; He takes visitors for 2-3 weeks to help him out in his mission. I have heard people that go and comeback transformed with an entirely different view of the world and their life and priorities…Here is a video:

 

[Gab123]

Are you proposing they only talk online? Because otherwise people will know.

Online can be a tool to find someone in the same predicament, one can always meet in person later.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Adam wasn’t meant to disobey God’s command either, but he did, thus we’re all suffering the consequence of Adam and Eve’s fall. You have your weaknesses, I have mine.

Sooo… the human need for accompaniment, companionship, intimacy, relationship, communal living and love, and even romance and sex are result of the Fall? Interesting…

I recommend Eve Tushnet. Again.

 

[catholic1seeks]

You talk about the cross of not having sex and romance; some people are born blind, others are born without legs; tomorrow someone is going to be raped, others are homeless, some have lost children, others starving to death, homeless, dealing with cancer, born in a slum;

And you are more than welcome to start threads about how we can better provide for the needs of the blind, the amputee, the rape victim, and the homeless. The Church should listen to them and any group who feels marginalized and has particular struggles.

But this thread is about LGBT persons and how LGBT persons can flourish and find home in the Church.

 

[Gab123]

He made us with our desires, need for love and intimacy, need for family, society, and companionship.

God gave man women. Again, what do you think about finding a Catholic woman in your same predicament and forge a friendship than lead to companionship; maybe blossom into a sexual relationship in marriage and family? is it not possible to se a woman as a person whom you can love? the attraction is just nature ‘s way of bringing man and woman together, it is not the end-all of the relationship; the sex blossoms into children

 

[DarkLight]

Online can be a tool to find someone in the same predicament, one can always meet in person later.

The point was that people are told by those in the church to avoid exactly that, because it might lead to scandal.

Also, pair friendships… really isn’t how friendship works anyway.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I think that is definitely one way that could be promoted for some LGBT persons. I can’t sit here and pretend like that is a fix-all for all gay people in the church, nor can I say that that situation will never work, either.

I like that you are thinking more in terms of the question of this thread now. For you are at least picking up on the fact that marriage is inherent to human nature, and so in a sense, ALL persons are “ordered” towards it. And yet, gay people (for example) usually do NOT feel called to marriage (Catholic marriage). Hence, this is one reason we ought to look for additional ways for gay people to flourish in the church.

But I do not think that is the best solution. It does get at the deeper issue, though, which is a start: recognizing that LGBT people are humans with real human needs.

 

[Gab123]

The point was that people are told by those in the church to avoid exactly that, because it might lead to scandal.

Nonsense. People’s private life can remain private. If people ask, just say “I love the woman in my life”. It doesn’t have to start out as a romantic love. Just Christian love… AGAPE.

 

[Gab123]

recognizing that LGBT people are humans with real human needs.

I think the real question for the Church is how do we address people with psychological issues related to gender and sexual attraction. I don’t mean to be insensitive… There is such a thing as psychological conditions that are the result of family circumstance, upbringing, traumas, relationships, broken relationships, divorce, etc. Psychological trauma suffered as a child, emotional, physical, or sexual abuse, an important loss of a loved one, neglect, etc. etc. that can develop into a plethora of different emotional attachments and complexes.

Instead of trying to find a special place for transsexuals, bisexuals, heterosexuals, homosexuals, pansexuals, “questioning sexual”, and now all the gender definitions and pronouns etc. dividing everybody in sexual categories based on attractions and feelings, everyone needs to be seen in the same way the Church has always taught: Children of God. If someone has a psychological problems related to sexuality, then it has to be treated as such, with sensitivity, compassion and reality. The only job of the Church is to shepherd souls to heaven; in the end all that really matters is the salvation of your soul.

We cannot normalize gay marriage, SSA, Transexualism, etc. etc. We have to deal with what it is…

 

[Gab123]

Hence, this is one reason we ought to look for additional ways for gay people to flourish in the church.

What do you envision for SSA people as flourishing in the Church? What do you mean by “Flourish”? Also, specifically, what do you have in mind for Transexuals, that is, men who dress as and have surgeries to be women and viseversa. What do you envision as a role for them to flourish in the Church?

 

[Ann1]

AMEN…and the truth will set you free.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What do you envision for SSA people as flourishing in the Church? What do you mean by “Flourish”? Also, specifically, what do you have in mind for Transexuals, that is, men who dress as and have surgeries to be women and vise eras. What do you envision as a role for them to flourish in the Church?

Being gay (i.e. being attracted to the same sex) is not an action. Dressing as a woman is an action – though not obviously a sinful one. Mutilating your body is clearly an action, and clearly a sin.

We could never encourage flourishing by encouraging sinful actions.

 

[Thorolfr]

catholic1seeks:

He made us with our desires, need for love and intimacy, need for family, society, and companionship.

God gave man women. Again, what do you think about finding a Catholic woman in your same predicament and forge a friendship than lead to companionship; maybe blossom into a sexual relationship in marriage and family? is it not possible to se a woman as a person whom you can love? the attraction is just nature ‘s way of bringing man and woman together, it is not the end-all of the relationship; the sex blossoms into children

Your understanding of sexuality seems kind of simplistic. You underestimate the importance of attraction and assume that it’s possible to have sex without it. The attraction is not only important for “bringing men and women together,” it’s also important for the sexual act itself. According to an article at WebMD, “The Sexual-Response Cycle: What Happens to Our Bodies During Sex,” there are four stages to sex:

The sexual-response cycle is divided into four phases: excitement, plateau, orgasm and resolution. There is no distinct beginning or end to each phase – they’re actually all part of a continuous process of sexual response.

Phase One: Excitement
This phase usually begins within 10 to 30 seconds after erotic stimulation, and can last anywhere from a few minutes to many hours. Men: The penis becomes slightly erect. A man’s nipples may also become erect. Heart rate, blood pressure and breathing are all accelerated.

https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/sexual-response-cycle#1

When it comes to the “excitement” phase of the sexual-response cycle, there has to be some attraction, something that a person finds erotic. Otherwise, a man isn’t going to be excited, is he? And because men are very visual when it comes to sex, it helps them to see something that excites and arouses them. Or they have to think about something that excites them. I don’t think that love by itself is something that will result in the sexual excitement needed for phase one. And without it, no sex is going to take place. And I don’t think that just because a gay man is living with a woman, even one he loves, that he’s going to start feeling sexually attracted to her.