What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[Gab123]

Attacking homosexuality as a psychological disorder actually weakened our stance, and more importantly, it turned the way we viewed LGB/SSA people as people with a particular temptation we may or may not share (i.e., regular people like us) to just plain icky people, and it’s very difficult to answer for our claims all many of us had prior to the rise of the gay rights movement and liberalization of sexuality was “ick”.

It doesn’t say anything about homosexuality being a “psychological disorder”, though, at least the way that psycholocigcal disorders are commonly understood. While a desire to have sex with someone of the same sex is “disordered” in the natural law sense

Traditionally the Church has isolated homosexual behavior as an abomination, a vice, a depravity, thus gravely sinful; and the inclination for it as a psychological condition that is intrinsically disordered.

The problem is that the Church is facing a culture that celebrates, promotes, targets and encourages men, women and children to embrace the lie that homosexual behavior is normal and worthy of respect. Through lies and deception, militant groups of sodomites have embedded themselves within the entertainment industry, the education system, politics and the courts and have successfully poisoned the minds of the general public, especially targeting children, while even entrenching themselves inside the laity and hierarchy of the Church with the specific long-term goal of gradually normalizing and approving homosexual behavior.

Much like the wide-scale proliferation of artificial contraception, the subversion of the courts regarding abortion, and the political victory to remove homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses from the American Psychological Association, all three are attacks on the family; thus from a spiritual perspective—and Catholics must see everything through that lens—these movements are Satanic. (And if you believe in the messages from Fatima and Sr. Lucia, she described the final battle against the Church by Satan would be specifically against the family.)

Like anybody trying to carry their cross and deal with their sinful inclinations, the Church must be compassionate with repentant sinners and be a place for all to come and be transformed and sanctified. But the idea to open and inclusive on the issue of homosexuality and find a specific place within the Church must be jnmasked for what it is, namely a gradual attempt to subvert the Church. Read on:

 

[Gab123]

As the chairman of the Department of Moral Theology at the Catholic University of Louvain, explained, he describes the gradualist strategy for the Church’s acceptance of sodomy:

“Is the teaching going to continue to evolve? With respect to the homosexual relationship, will it evolve toward encompassing it? Yes, it will! We have already taken the first step. Begrudgingly as we might like to admit, even the teaching of the Church has recognized the homosexual person, the homosexual orientation. It may be very uncomfortable with its own statements, but it’s there! The homosexual person is a person and no less of a person than anyone else. This is the first step.
The second step is the recognition of the homosexual relationship. I think we are virtually on the edge of accepting the homosexual relationship. The Church will accept the homosexual relationship, like those divorced and remarried: We must live as brother and sister or brother and brother and sister and sister as the case may be… [The audience laughs.] What is important is that the relationship be recognized as a valuable, fruitful, meaningful, affirmative, creative relationship. We are on the verge of accepting this.
The third step is: Can we accept the homosexual act? Before we can talk about the morality of the homosexual act, we have to define it, to understand exactly what it is…. Our whole understanding of human sexuality needs to be rewritten, but rewritten not from a “procreative or reproductive” point of view. It needs to be rewritten from a ‘relational’ point of view” (The Meanings of Human Sexuality, New Ways Ministry, Fourth National Symposium).

 

[una_ecclesia]

Traditionally the Church has isolated homosexual behavior as an abomination, a vice, a depravity, thus gravely sinful; and the inclination for it as a psychological condition that is intrinsically disordered.

That the Church considered homosexual behavior as an “abomination, a vice, a depravity gravely sinful” does not at all contradict my point that it is not making a statement about designating some kind of psychological diagnosis. All sorts of things are perverse, gravely sinful, abominations, but you don’t have to say the person who does it must be mentally sick in order for you to condemn the act. Nor does every one who commits the act have some mental illness associated with it.

The American Psychological Association may indeed have been motivated more by political concerns than by sound practice, but the ideas that were there beforehand were off, because they were based on weird Freudian sexual theory that was further distorted by people who already had their own forms of sexual perversions. Again, if you want to strengthen your case, stay out of the Freud (who actually coined the terms “homosexuality” and “heterosexuality”) and stick to actual Catholic doctrine and morality. This is all I was saying.

 

[una_ecclesia]

That guy is wrong, but no one here engaging with you is in agreement with it. Could you please, in discussion with others here, actually address OUR particular arguments rather than attacking things we never claimed in the first place?

 

[Gab123]

That the Church considered homosexual behavior as an “abomination, a vice, a depravity gravely sinful” does not at all contradict my point that it is not making a statement about designating some kind of psychological diagnosis. All sorts of things are perverse, gravely sinful, abominations, but you don’t have to say the person who does it must be mentally sick in order for you to condemn the act. Nor does every one who commits the act have some mental illness associated with it.

Yes, this is certainly true, and I never said people were mentally ill; it’s a disorder, as I stated earlier, rooted in Original Sin. Thus for somebody to commit a depravity without having an actual mental illness commits a gravely sinful action. There are people who are perfectly sane who are sexually attracted to children, and act it out, while others who are sexually attracted to animals, also act it out. This it is a depravity when one commits such acts. the disorder brought into the world by Original Sin is what became either our means for sanctification and becoming holy through God’s grace, or the means for demonizing ourselves into wicked human beings on the road to damnation, like the fallen angels who became wicked spirits… It’s the reason we need a savior, not change the Church to being open and inclusive to the rainbow culture…

 

[Gab123]

That guy is wrong, but no one here engaging with you is in agreement with it

Tha guy is represented by many bishops and cardinals in the Church today. The very title of this head itself is in line with the agenda-driven gradualism masked behind innocence and false compassion…
the Church needs to denounce the rainbow culture loud and clear, not let it deep in and pervert our children…

 

[una_ecclesia]

The person heading the thread has repeatedly denied what you are claiming him to hold. He does not make the steps the theologian you are quoting makes. There is no gradualism taking place, and that theologian is employing some major logical leaps. Saying that Church openness to celibate friendships where people live as brothers / sisters could lead to openness to homosexual activities is a big fat non sequitur on the theologian’s part. Further more, celibate living arrangements have been discussed as not without its dangers by the OP, precisely on the grounds that they might treat it as a marriage rather than a fraternal relationship. Where on earth do you see any of us faithful here making this gradualistic claim? On the other hand, you see us quickly arguing that homosexual activities are not to be accepted.

All your have done in these posts is apply a rather limited model of what you think are all the possible positions that one could take in this debate about homosexuality, and pigeon hole us into positions that we do not actually hold, nor which would logically follow from what we do hold. Again, I repeat, address our actual arguments. Not the arguments of heretics you are lumping is with, with whom all of us also disagree. this is just being disingenuous on your part.

 

[Gab123]

The person heading the thread has repeatedly denied what you are claiming him to hold. He does not make the steps the theologian you are quoting makes.

Those are your words. I never claimed that it is his intention; it is the agenda-driven gradualism that encourages and uses well intentioned people inside the Church to do so.

Saying that Church openness to celibate friendships where people live as brothers / sisters could lead to openness to homosexual activities is a big fat non sequitur on the theologian’s part.

Nonsense. That’s the way the approval of artificial contraception, divorce, abortion and now actively homosexual “pastors” got accepted in many Christian denominations today. And institutionalizing sodomy by the Dupreme Court didn’t happen overnight, it was a steady march of lies, victimhood politics, entertainment brainwashing,intimidation and twisting the Constitution that pushed it through, as was the case with abortion. And the rates among Catholics approving these things is almost just as high as the world’s. Thus again, the Church needs to denounce the sin as an abomination, lest the future generation of children are all gently and wholesome lay perverted right under your nose.

address our actual arguments. Not the arguments of heretics you are lumping is with, with whom all of us also disagree.

Again, the slow march is like a cancer. The Church may very well hold on paper it’s teachings, like it does on the use of artificial contraception, yet many if not the vast majority of Catholics do it, approve one it, or assume it is simply a teaching that will eventually change. Again, all this talk about inclusion, compassion and tolerance of the culture of death is simply a mask hiding the army of Satan; the so-called “fifth column” strategy of warfare…
Don’t be fooled. It’s all about snatching souls.

 

[Gab123]

There is no gradualism taking place,

From U.S. Catholic.org

Jesuit Father James Martin is among the most vocal advocates in church leadership for compassionate dialogue between LGBT Catholics and the church. In 2017 he published Building a Bridge (HarperOne) to spark conversation between the two sides. He believes Francis’ appointments demonstrate remarkable change on the part of the church over the past five years. “[The welcoming Mass] wouldn’t have happened five years ago simply because Cardinal Tobin wasn’t in Newark,” Martin says. “Cardinal Cupich wants to have listening sessions with LGBT Catholics. That wouldn’t have happened because he wasn’t the archbishop of Chicago five years ago.”

Inconsistency abounds

Although the words and actions of certain bishops have been a welcome change for many LGBT Catholics, church hierarchy is not united on LGBT issues. “While the influence of the bishops has helped create safe spaces and the ability for dialogue where there wasn’t 5 to 10 years ago, the institutional church does not seem to be on pace with what’s happening in society,” says Arthur Fitzmaurice, a lay Catholic living in Atlanta who gives talks and workshops on LGBT ministry. “Pope Francis has made a lot of comments about being pastoral first, but there are priests and bishops who are not being pastoral to people in their parishes and dioceses.”

Contrasted with the actions of welcome from Archbishops Tobin or Cupich, other bishops and priests strike a markedly different tone. There are new directives that funerals could be denied to LGBT people as well as the Eucharist. One bishop held an exorcism in response to the legalization of same-sex civil marriages in 2013.

Massingale sees two ways to look at this inconsistency within the church. The first offers a more positive view and looks at the experiences of other Christian groups that have taken a more accepting stance toward LGBT people, such as the Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Lutheran churches. “They all went through a messy period marked by a divergence of opinion and open disagreement on approach,” he says. “We can’t expect the Catholic experience to be any different. The differences we see among official leaders are part of a normal process of coming to a different place.”

 

[Gab123]

this is just being disingenuous on your part.

I’m just telling you the truth. The frog in the boiling water is a good analogy. Even the infamous Wikileaks accidentally revealed the extent of politics actively involved in subverting the Catholic Church and “plant the seeds of the revolution” . The problem is that many Catholics are clueless about the political and spiritual war that is taking place; the’ve breached the walls.

 

[Fauken]

Alright, we get it. You think the solution is to ship off everyone with SSA to a Carthusian monastery (convent for the ladies), keep them confined to their cells to a life of prayer and penance where they’ll never have to worry about feeling tempted ever again and will have all the time in the world to pray the gay away. A psychologist will visit them every day for conditional therapy to blast away the psychological part of it. Great. Problem solved.

See what I just did there?

 

[Gab123]

You think the solution is to ship off everyone with SSA to a Carthusian monastery

Those are your words. I never said that; I’ve explained the need for all to seek conversion and saintliness through God’s supernatural grace the regular way we all have to, whether one is addicted to adultery or any other sin. The issue I am addressing is the insidiousious gradualism by design which is taking place in a Catholic church near you.
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[catholic1seeks]

@Gab123

Sadly, I still see you have not offered much to this thread’s question…

I recommend you watch this, and have a better awareness, and then respond. Or just start your own thread. You aren’t be helpful.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The problem is that you automatically see that picture and shout “promotion of homosexual sex!!!” whereas the typical Christian may be just as likely to see in that picture: “Oh look, a church trying to reach out to its often neglected and vulnerable members.”

And then I have absolutely no context for what is really going on in that picture, other than a rainbow flag.

 

[Gab123]

I recommend you watch this, and have a better awareness,

I watched this a long tome ago. She seems like a nice sweet girl who is in the process of discovering the truths of the Catholic Church. The more she digs into this truth the more she will discover that the only point of it all is one’s sanctification, through supernatural grace. Chastity, virtue, purity of intention, humility, love for God and neighbor. The more one grows for God the more one sees the things of the world for what they are…

 

[Fauken]

Those are your words. I never said that

Which is how a number of people feel and have told you as much, and yet you still argue against points they have not made as if they’ve made them. I don’t think I’ve seen you actually address their points. You even took one of their quotes out of context and replied with something unrelated to what they said.

 

[catholic1seeks]

You don’t think she already knows this?

So after watching this, you still don’t understand that the point of this thread is to consider how a gay Christian can faithfully live in the Catholic Church, remaining single and celibate, while still finding a fruitful life of love and service?

 

[Gab123]

So after watching this, you still don’t understand that the point of this thread is to consider how a gay Christian can faithfully live in the Catholic Church, remaining single and celibate, while still finding a fruitful life of love and service?

I think the problem is that people think there needs to be a special place, a special mass, a special program for people with SSA. I think it’s just a very clever excuse that masks the ultimate agenda. Again, I am not saying that you personally have an agenda, however it is the agenda of many in the Church. All you have to read is their publications. Look at what happened in the Anglican Church. It didn’t happen overnight.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Since I do not have that agenda, why do you run with this presumption? How about answering my own question and concerns. Eve Tushnet also doesn’t have that agenda. Most LGBT people in the church might very well wish to live by the church’s standards, but they need a community of support. Claiming they need no such support for their situation will cause churches to continue to ignore their existence.

 

[Fauken]

I think the problem is that people think there needs to be a special place, a special mass, a special program for people with SSA. I think it’s just a very clever excuse that masks the ultimate agenda.

So I assume you then support getting rid of groups like Alcoholics Annonymous and Project Rachel? After all, by your logic, they must exist to normalize and legitimize alcoholism and abortion, respectively.