What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[Bruised_Reed]

Well, I usually start with the most important things about me…
Catholic, who likes to read, quilt, has a great dane, whatever. My sexual preference it’s at the top of the list

That’s a lot of tribes right there. And if one belongs to a marginalized group it can be particularly important. Like I wrote in my last post, sometimes you just want to be around people who don’t think you are going to hell. And LGBT folks like being in a setting that isn’t even low-key hostile to them, I’ve known people who are super liberal and seemingly LGBT-friendly and they said things I thing you could even you would agree were uncharitable. There is a reason people who are LGBT are never really sure that even people who are nice to them don’t secretly hate them. This thread is not super hostile but it’s more than low-key. People may not think they are being hostile or creating a hostile space but from where I’m sitting, they are.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

he wouldn’t allow some of them to have much more than they need while others are homeless and in some place starve to death.

But you forget that God gave us free will. It is unfortunate that people live in so much luxury while others are poor, but we were given free will because God loves us, even though people abuse this gift.

It is unfortunate, but for some reason, a lot of people here in CAF are much more concerned about gay sex and pride parades than what they are about poverty, refugees who are fleeing violence, and many other issues that seem to me to be much more important.

 

[theCardinalbird]

It is unfortunate, but for some reason, a lot of people here in CAF are much more concerned about gay sex and pride parades than what they are about poverty, refugees who are fleeing violence, and many other issues that seem to me to be much more important.

Well Thorolf the reason why we put some emphasis on gay sex and pride parades is because we fear that it will hinder people’s spiritual growth. I do agree though that poverty, refugees who are fleeing violence are important topics, but at the same time I do not think it is wise to simply discard the former topics as they are controversial and need to be addressed due to society’s acceptance of these things.

 

[JanetF]

Actually, I think it may just SEEM that they are more concerned about gay sex because it gets discussed so much.

Pro-lifers get accused of being concerned with only preborn, when in fact being prolife encompasses from conception to death, but the period after birth, doesn’t SEEM to be addressed as much in the media.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

That’s good, but do I have to spell out every single way a person can be be treated as unwanted or unworthy? I’m a cis-het woman I know that a few people suspect I’m a lesbian (I’m over 40, still single and have a motorcycle) and I remember talking with some people who thought I was and how totally uncomfortable they were. Only later did I find out why they were acting so weird. So there is a spectrum: "thinking they are going to hell to “I have no idea how to act around you because I’m not really sure how a gay person is like everyone else and therefore I can’t talk to them about normal stuff like music or the iguanas I have”, and then everything in between. I don’t think people are think I’m going to hell for the fandoms I’ve been in but it’s a lot easier to fangirl with another fangirl.

I’m going to be more comfortable talking shop with someone in the same field (we don’t have to correct assumptions, we’re on the same page), I’m going to be more comfortable sharing something sensitive with someone who has been through the same thing, I’m going to enjoy nerding out over an interest with someone who enjoys the same thing and I don’t have to hear snotty comments that translate as, “you’re not talking about something that is of interest to me so I’ll say something dismissive.”

LGBT people want to be with people who have had similar experiences growing up knowing that they were different, growing having heard family and friends say horrible things about LGBT people, unwittingly saying about their loved one how disgusting they are or that they are going to hell or mocking them, or the tension or sadness of coming out family and friends and being rejected, or even the fear or experience of being bullied or physically assaulted or killed. Young people who are LGBT often think they are the only one and that’s why community, visibility, and representation matters.

 

[Thorolfr]

Actually, I think it may just SEEM that they are more concerned about gay sex because it gets discussed so much.

I think that a lot of people here ARE more concerned. There are people here in CAF who have expressed their opposition to even a single cent of their taxes being spent to provide health care coverage for others who are less fortunate than themselves. To them, it’s a form of theft.

 

[JanetF]

sorry, but what does health care coverage have to do with gay sex?

 

[Thorolfr]

sorry, but what does health care coverage have to do with gay sex?

It has to do with priorities. In my opinion anyway, making sure that everyone has basic health care coverage is more important than obsessing about the sexual practices of 4-5% of the population.

 

[JanetF]

Ok, got it, but a discussion about healthcare would derail this thread, so I’m bowing out.

 

[Thorolfr]

LGBT people want to be with people who have had similar experiences growing up knowing that they were different, growing having heard family and friends say horrible things about LGBT people, unwittingly saying about their loved one how disgusting they are or that they are going to hell or mocking them, or the tension or sadness of coming out family and friends and being rejected, or even the fear or experience of being bullied or physically assaulted or killed. Young people who are LGBT often think they are the only one and that’s why community, visibility, and representation matters.

You did a much better job of explaining this than what I would have. Most people here probably don’t really know what it’s like for someone to worry when they’re 13 or 14 that their parents might discover something about them that would cause their parents not to love them any more. For me, it was an unreasonable thing to worry about because I’ve always received unconditional love from my parents. But for many gay youth, it is a real concern and quite a few of them get kicked out of their homes and end up on the street.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Anthony Oliviera wrote about how some experience coming out:

When straight people imagine coming out they imagine a tearful, dramatic revelation all at once, but Alex’s story is like mine: by degrees, when it’s safe, when it’s too late for them to ruin your life. Coming out is brave not because it is vaguely “scary,” like a school play; it is brave because it is dangerous. Some people get violent; some punish you financially; some just love you a little less, forever. You let them see the little fraction of yourself that you can trust them with, because you’ve learned love is almost always conditional.

The part I bolded, “some just love you a little less, forever” resonated with me, and it hurt. This is why some need to find other LGBT people, and they can only do that is by identifying themselves as such.

(This originally was a reply to Thorolfr but is really a reply all.)

 

[DarkLight]

I think our society has a certain tendency in general to see sexuality as threatening and all-encompassing. One thing that’s personally been a struggle for me is that the mere idea of same-sex or potential same-sex attraction puts people off. So you’ll get people who think, maybe they understand that SSA is a thing, but the idea that someone of the same sex might potentially be attracted to them is too much, and they don’t really want them around because of that.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I know I know, it’s a good point.

But I still maintain LGBT folk have their own baggage and associated challenges that are not unrelated to the vocation question. That is, most LGBT folk would love the option of being able to marry the person they love. But most LGBT folk also know they cannot do this in the Church. It’s a very particular context. I’m not saying other single people are not told they can’t marry (say, a wife whose husband left her). But I find these other cases to be diverse and not sharing much in common OTHER than the general “single in the church.”

 

[BlueMaxx]

It seems as if this thread is going off the rails…

For the record, I am very compassionate for the refugees (whatever that has to do with LGBTQ vocations I haven’t a clue)

I am sorrowful for those that struggle with homosexuality and the hurt that their lives incur from this struggle. From the damage it does to the relationship with parents, loved ones and friends. I feel for all those people.

Irregardless of what sin we live in or commit, it only hinders our growth and our relationship with God. There is a specific reason Catholics believe in purgatory and hell…it has to do with sin.

Homosexuals should of course be welcomed into the church, but their are rules…rules in place that limit the participation in the sacraments…and it is not just homosexuality, it is for a myriad of other sins. That is why we have confession…which a key part is repentance and turning away from that sin, genuine heartbreak over the sin.

Encouraging people to follow a path that does not lead to ultimate destruction should be the goal…irregardless of whatever thorn is in ones side as Paul would say.

If someone struggles with homosexuality, thievery, lying, breaking any of the commandments, whatever, then that just makes them human…acting on them is where the problem arises.

Lastly, as with current immigration laws (again no clue why this was included in the conversation) our countries laws and God’s law, I did not write them…but am expected to follow them…

Yes we can change our laws that govern us as mankind, but we cannot change God’s law…

Just because someone desires something doesn’t make it right…that goes for any state of sin…

 

[catholic1seeks]

Was that a spiritually healthy experience as a SSA person? I wouldn’t think the images we all have seen from some Gay Pride parades are what Catholics who have SSA should be attending or taking part in.

Ah, the usual “MY pre-conceived judgment is more relevant than YOUR personal, concrete experience.”

 

[DarkLight]

With all due respect, this is kind of the issue that we’re complaining about.

There are plenty of us who live with SSA, but who aren’t living in sin, or committing homosexual acts, or anything like that. But we still find that we’re treated as some special brand of sinner. We’ve had far more focus in a thread talking about our lives on the evils of homosexuality out there than on the actual role and lives of those who are practicing Catholics with SSA.

Let me put it this way. Imagine you’re coming to the church, and you’re saying that you want directions on how to grow in your faith as a married man (I don’t know if you’re either, but it works for the example). And you get told, ok, well, you need to get baptized, and you have to only have sex with your wife, and go to Mass every week. You say, you understand that, but you really want to know you you fit into the Church and how you can grow in your faith and contribute.

But the response to that doesn’t talk about growing in faith at all. Instead, you get answer after answer of how we can’t be glorifying sex outside of marriage and this modern culture is trying to shove the idea down our throats that you can leave whenever and being faithful to your wife isn’t important, and people have to acknowledge and stand firm on the idea that you have to be faithful to your wife. And every time you ask how to grow in your marriage, you get told how you have to reject modern culture and stay faithful to your wife, and not be out living modern married culture where you can just leave if you’re not happy.

Wouldn’t you get pretty frustrated? It wouldn’t be because that’s not church teaching. It would be because that’s all you’re getting. And it would be a little bit insulting if you came in and said that you were a married man committed to following the teaching on sexuality and being told over and over again that you have to acknowledge that church teaching on staying faithful to your wife won’t change. Again, not because that’s not true, but because you’ve already said you’re a faithful Catholic and you’re looking for more than just that.

 

[theCardinalbird]

You hit the nail on the head

 

[BlueMaxx]

I’m getting ready to run to the gym, so Ill shoot quick answer…sorry to be short…

I would have hoped you gleaned from my post that I was intentionally trying to express that it is not a greater sin that any other…

I hear what you are saying about frustration, and I was trying desperately to get across that our journey is hard, the teaching is hard and it sometimes hits us like a hammer. Because the old flesh is dead…we are new creatures…giving up those sins is hard…I do not care what your sin is.

Homosexuality is doubly hard I would think because it strikes not only at fleshly desires but also soulful relationships…

We can love each other of the same sex without it being sinful, it is when we start to change the definition of love to fit our wants when things get tricky…

My point is having the desire is one thing, acting on it is another…

For me it meant losing friends, family, things I enjoyed doing…alot…all off it had to be challenged and fought with and wrestled with and I HATED IT and fought it for many years…

But God is faithful…and now I realize all that angst was not only a purification process but a growth process…

People are prejudiced, they just are…so quit putting your faith in people to do the right thing and let God to do it for you!

Let your faith and happiness rest in the Church and Christ, as long as your living that life, seeking to do what is right, serving one another and loving your neighbor…and trying with all your might to please God the rest should be gravy!

Respectfully,

M

 

[DarkLight]

I understood your post. My point was, that for many of us, we’d like to have one discussion about living out lives in the church WITHOUT having to repeatedly affirm that acting on the desire is sinful and all that and we actually are being chaste and we don’t support “gay culture” or whatever the term is. Without any mention of changing the definition of anything at all, even to say that we’re not looking to do that. Even if it’s tempered with words about how having the desire isn’t a sin and all sins are equal and all that.

Because having to have that discussion repeatedly whenever homosexuality is brought up is hurtful to us. Because what it’s communicating, essentially, is that it’s more important to proclaim that we have the right stance to people who are already in agreement, than to address anything beyond that. Because it comes across as you don’t really have any place in the church other than continual repentance, even for those who aren’t acting on the temptation, and have not for years, the only support we can get is to be told to not act on the temptation. Because it keeps us in a place where our spiritual growth and support can only be discussed up to the level of staying chaste, and anything else beyond that has to be dragged back to talk about chastity.

To use an even simpler image, it’s like going to school and being told people like you get to go over the ABC’s of faith over and over and over again, and whenever you ask for help moving beyond that you get a lecture on how important the ABC’s are, while other people are moving up through the grades.

 

[BoyGenius]

vocation for single gay people?

Firstly, everyone is called to act in life/faith of prayer. That is a singular vocation everyone has. Namely a Devotion.

Saint Mary Magdalene, who was under both her sins and the evil menacing spirits that poisoned her. She had a heart. Consider her “struggles.” Especially when the Pharisee asked Jesus, “Do you know what sort of woman this is?” The woman had to face sexual desires as that’s what her life had been spent doing. But when she “listened” to Christ (as we see her now at the feet of Christ listening.) Her heart experienced conversion when she cried with tears and wiped the feet of Christ before the Pharisee. Pretty brave woman at that time. Women were being stoned, just like the one caught in adultery. Saint Mary Magdalene was one brave woman and soul.

So is there a specific enterprise/vocation for someone who identifies him or herself as LGBT? That would mean, is there a vocation for LGBT in the Church?

If people who are constantly battling that in their lives, do not act nor allow, nor encourage, neither entice, nor confirm anyone in that lifestyle or behavior. Which would detract from the Sacraments and oppose God/Christ Himself. Then as people who bear the wounds of that attraction just as Christ bore the wounds suffered from sin, then that would be a vocation. As a warning, showing people their wounds. Carrying their Cross. No less people who are in Alcoholics anonymous have a vocation. They do not encourage people to drink alcohol as they have an addiction. It’s similar, but not the same. The weight of same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria is a huge Cross people carry. The power of sin in their hearts. The fall from the Garden. And suffering and abuse, and trauma that many (but not all) have suffered through life. Especially when many of them were small children.

In this life, we carry a Cross. But in once we are in God’s Kingdom and Glory, in His Love, we will no longer carry those burdens. Those wounds will be gone. And no more. All the abuse, trauma, and turmoil on one’s life, vanishes.

LGBT, in and of itself, is not a vocation to encourage people in that frame of mind. Nor to encourage them to act/believe to be that way. There’s no inclusive identity to being that way. But there is the inclusiveness all souls are called to in Communion with Christ, in the Sacrament, and in act of Holy Penance.

People in LGBT are sinners, just as everyone else is. LGBT is a strange attachment to people. It’s a disorder. The orientation is confusing to both the soul, body, and will. It seems undefeatable. And therefore today’s culture creates an inclusive identity to accept it as normal. Which it isn’t Because it was not that way in the beginning.