What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[Gab123]

Wouldn’t community also be a good thing?

Yes,community is real good, especially family. What is not good is a Catholic who insists on identifying with definitions formulated and promulgated by the LGBTTQQ (Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual, Trans, Two-spirit, Queer, Questioning) agenda which is inspired, energized and guided by the prince of this world… it’s the same spirit behind gender theory which is now being implemented in public kindergartens and grade schools as they have an eye on the future generations, future future politicians and lawmakers.

But the late Fr, John A Hardon S.J. unmasked the strategy a few decades ago. You can read his sober approach to the issue in the link below, but here is a quote from what he wrote:

69. What is at the heart of the strategy of the promoters of homosexuality among Catholics?

In one word, the heart of this strategy is gradualism. It is assumed that homosexuality will not soon be approved by all Catholics, and still less soon by Catholic Church authority. The following quotation is lengthy, but it deserves to be quoted in full. Publicly stated by the chairman of the Department of Moral Theology at the Catholic University of Louvain, it clearly expresses the gradualist strategy for the Church’s acceptance of sodomy: LINK

 

[Gab123]

you tell us we’re not doing it right because we need to be focused on the commandments more…

Nonsense. Review my posts. I never said that. The focus is on Jesus Christ and a transformation of heart, a death of self, and taking on a new self with a Christ mindset. Keeping commandments out of fear of hell is much different than keeping commandments out of love for God… Archbishop Sheen makes the clear distinction here: LISTEN NOW

 

[DarkLight]

Nonsense. Review my posts. I never said that. The focus is on Jesus Christ and a transformation of heart, a death of self, and taking on a new self with a Christ mindset. Keeping commandments out of fear of hell is much different than keeping commandments out of love for God… Archbishop Sheen makes the clear distinction here: LISTEN NOW

You can say something without saying it in so many words.

We’re saying, look, we want to go beyond just keeping the commandments. But there are things that make it harder or more confusing, because we don’t have the same sort of defined path and examples that other people have. And we’d like to talk about those.

And what you’re coming back at is saying, no, stop talking about those. Stop talking about anything related to growing in faith while dealing with LGB attractions, because it’s really just a sneaky way of trying to change church teachings and seeking to disobey the commandments.

You may not have said in so many words that we need to focus on the commandments more, but every single time a LGBT person says something that’s not purely focused on the commandments you’re accusing them of wanting to break the commandments.

 

[Gab123]

And what you’re coming back at is saying, no, stop talking about those. Stop talking about anything related to growing in faith while dealing with LGB attractions, because it’s really just a sneaky way of trying to change church teachings and seeking to disobey the commandments.

The problem is that we’re discussing this issue in the context of a very well-financed, well-organized LGBT agenda that has the Church as a target for takeover via conquering the mindset of the faithful, in order to divide the flock to march against the Church; useful idiots laying the groundwork by unwittingly using all their talking points and falling for their strategies; it is a sneaky way of trying to change Church teaching.

As for the answer for your issues, you can find them in the gospels; the problem is that many seem to spend hours of their lifetime on the Internet with little or no time on the Sacred Scriptures. We only have one life to live, and spiritual predators are everywhere…

Eventually the Church will be hated so much that things will get violent against the Church as it always has in the past. Here’s a good example of the useful idiots in the rainbow mob trying to storm a cathedral with only a group of people praying the Rosary defending it:

 

[DarkLight]

As for the answer for your issues, you can find them in the gospels; the problem is that many seem to spend hours of their lifetime on the Internet with little or no time on the Sacred Scriptures. We only have one life to live, and spiritual predators are everywhere…

If a married man asked for how to live a faithful life in his marriage, would you tell him all he needs is the gospel? Or would you point him to the saints in their marriages and to the writings and examples of faithful married Catholics?

 

[Thorolfr]

DarkLight:

Is there anything at all we could do other then pretending to not have these issues that wouldn’t count to you as some sort of infiltration?

The LGBT infiltration has polluted the minds of people to the point that many unwittingly use the definitions, terminology and rationalizations of the movement; the strategy is by design and it is very insidious. I don’t blame the people on this forum who are struggling with homosexuality; I blame the LGBT movement for ffectively brainwashing people to think about the issue through LGBT-colored glasses, that is, a worldly mindset, rather than a spiritual mindset centered on Jesus Christ.

You sound kind of paranoid. The LGBT movement is not some kind of conspiracy like the one conjured up in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which imagined Jewish leaders meeting secretly to plot, as Wikipedia says, “global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world’s economies.”

There certainly are civil rights organizations like the Human Rights Campaign that work to promote equality for LGBT people. But the most effective thing that has been done to change people’s perceptions was for millions of average LGBT people to come out to their families, friends, and co-workers so that they all realized that people they love and like are gay or lesbian and are not the sexual predators portrayed by groups like Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority. I still remember mailings that my grandmother used to get back in the 80s from the Moral Majority with statements like the following:

Remember, since homosexuals cannot have children of their own, the only way for them to expand their ranks is to recruit your children and mine.

Fortunately, I don’t think that most people in my family believe this kind of stuff any more, partly because I came out to them. If LGBT people had stayed in the closet and had not started to publicly reveal their sexual orientation, we would not now have laws that protect them from discrimination in housing and employment.

 

[Gab123]

If a married man asked for how to live a faithful life in his marriage, would you tell him all he needs is the gospel? Or would you point him to the saints in their marriages and to the writings and examples of faithful married Catholics?

Yes. If one loves it is not hard to be faithful. And we have to realize what God’s mercy actually is. God’s mercy is Him calling us to convert, to die to self and to grow spiritually in order to prepare us to NOT face His Justice. So the more we grow in love for God the more we will hate to offend Him.

There’s a reason why God chose to come into the world and die in the terrible spectacle of the crucifixion; it is 1) to show us the horror of sin. 2) To prove His love for us. And 3) To show us the path we must all follow in order to go to heaven.

Thus He said that the only way we can be His disciple is if we pick up our cross daily and follow Him, which means that we have to carry our conscience in order to crucified our passions, our vices, our attachments, in order to die to self completely. That is the requirement for entering heaven. Purgatory is a state of purification for all the worldly attachments and unresolved issues that could have been resolved the easy way while on earth. HEll is for those who decided to kill their conscience and not repent.

 

[Gab123]

The LGBT movement is not some kind of conspiracy

But the most effective thing that has been done to change people’s perceptions was for millions of average LGBT people to come out to their families, friends, and co-workers so that they all realized that people they love and like are gay or lesbian and are not the sexual predators portrayed by groups like Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority

The problem is that it is a spiritual conspiracy of the worst kind, and the spirit behind it is not from heaven. Thus the most effective thing that the deception has accomplished is to trick millions into rationalizing an attack against the family, against the dignity of men and women, and namely against the Holy Trinity. That’s the thing about deceptions, people who have been deceived don’t realize they’ve been deceived. The spiritual war is about deception in order for men to lose their salvation and be prisoners with Satan and all the wicked spirits for all eternity.

Your existence is more incredible than you can imagine, and there are spiritual predators hungry for souls…

“And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. . . And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” - Apocalypse 12:7-17

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Back to the OP:

Part I
There won’t be a one-size-fits-all type approach. Are there areas where Courage chapters are sparse? Are there priests who are willing to invest in the LGBT community? Just as an example, a late friend of mine was instrumental in bringing Rachel’s Vineyard to two neighboring dioceses. She had opportunities to talk to groups of priests about being post-abortive and it was helpful to them to ask questions from someone who was, and also how hear how RV would minister to mothers, fathers, and others who lost a little one to abortion. A priest or deacon who is willing to listen, not just preach, to the LGBT community should be encouraged and made visible. Community, even living in community: It’s rare for covenant communities to take off and even fewer flourish but I think it’s something that could work if it had support. A network of sorts for LGBT persons to connect with each other and take advantage of parish and diocesan events like Theology on Tap, in case going solo isn’t your thing. There’s that safety in numbers thing and in this case, it might be quite literal.

Again, these (and better, more workable ideas) should be networked somehow so if one thing isn’t available or doesn’t appeal there is a pipeline to something else. All made really accessible so if one is looking for it they will find it, if not stumble upon it.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Part II
Okay, now something a bit more challenging: Looking at vocations differently. First, let’s acknowledge that every baptized person has a vocation to the universal call to holiness. If someone wants to expound on that, please start another thread; I mentioned it here, it’s been mentioned upthread, it’s not covered thoroughly so go to it, but somewhere else.

I’ve had different thoughts about vocations as a single person (who believes my vocation is/was marriage). The church promotes 3 capital-V vocations: priesthood or diaconate, the religious life, and marriage and family, and then somewhere adjacent, consecrated virginity. I personally don’t think “singlehood” is a vocation. I know others who think otherwise, and that’s fine, it’s not the topic but I’m explaining a thought process and that is relevant. Anyway…I used to think, since the main three were the be all and end all of vocations that everyone must be called to one, even people who were LGBT, or had impediments to marriage. Wuuuuuut? Yeah, and even though I’ve rethunk it, abandoned the idea, I"ve come back to it. Wuuuuuut, you say? Please, bear with me. I think my vocation (marriage) has been “frustrated” for lack of a better word, mainly due to lack of single, and appropriately disposed, men. Being same-sex attracted would also be a frustration. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t a vocation to marriage or priesthood or religious life; it may mean that marriage might not be realistic option, it may mean that the seminary will say no to an applicant, the same for someone who believes they are called to the monastic life or sisterhood.

Moving on, my thoughts evolved a little. I wondered if the way vocations have been “marketed” by the Church is a little wonky. First, there was an emphasis on the priesthood, we prayed for more priests due to the priesthood “shortage.” Then I noticed that the religious life was added not much later. Finally, going by the prayer for vocations we say at Mass, the vocation to marriage completes the list of the main capital-V vocations. No prayers for consecrated virgins, and rare, hastily added prayers for singles. When approached this way it kind of leaves singles behind. I mean besides praying that they find their vocations, what else do pray for for singles?

What if…not everyone had a big-V vocation? And what if that we stopped talking about vocations, and “being called to” often inmeaningless ways. It sounds so spiritual, and I find it mildly dismissive at times. Maybe talking about that universal call was re-emphasized? But the discussion doesn’t end there.

So why talk about LGBT persons’ vocation? For one, they are virtually locked out of the capital-V vocations, especially if certain people have anything to say about it. It means that desire for a spouse and children won’t be realized, it means no matter how holy and chaste one is, some jerk out there is worried that you are a pervert, etc. (I don’t need to re-iterate this, do I?).

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Part II (con’d):
I’ll share something the priest who baptised me told a newly ordained priest: “You won’t know what celibacy means until your mother dies.” I’ve never forgotten that and now, as someone who’s mother has died, I get it. It’s not lonliness; it’s more than that, it’s different (just have to say that before someone tries to make it about that). Many LGBT persons have been shunned by family and friends, they’ve had those friends unwittingly say horrible things about their friends, parents kick their children out of the house, or physically assault them. It’s a little more extreme than losing a parent. It hurts in a different way. And then they join a parish where every do-gooder wants to pair them up, they’re such a nice young man, or a lovely girl… blahblahblah. So, what we do at the very least, is make our parishes safe for LGBT persons to serve and not be shunned, or given church ministries that are behind the scenes so they aren’t visible to the parish family, invite that single person (cis-het or LGBT, whatever, maybe you don’t know) to a family meal if they live away from home. I am grateful to the families that have done that for me but I often wonder how welcome I’d be if I were gay. Would the invitations peter out, would I be shunned (again)?

I guess I see this as part ministry to and part ministry by, people who are LGBT.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Addendum to Part II (or maybe a conclusion):
Also, there is another active, strong community that is trying to meet their needs, even spiritual ones. A lot of it is not geared toward holiness, a lot might get them on path but in ways aren’t uh…straight. If the Church doesn’t offer something counter to this we will lose them.

Er…sorry for the novel. @catholic1seeks, I told you I’d post once I organized my thoughts, well these aren’t that organized but I think I got in most of what I’ve pondered over the last several years. Eve Tushnet once quoted me once on her blog. It’s not like were likethis but I’ve read her writing forever and it ministered to me as a single person so it’s time to give back, in some way.

 

[MaryClare]

Hey there, catholic1seeks

1. I am not a person practicing the homosexual lifestyle in objection to the churches teachings trying to spread a sinful agenda. What I am is a woman who will admit to have had same sex attractions my entire life, never having been attracted to men, and acknowledging that this cross indeed means that I have a specific vocation in the church in this troubled time to live my life celibately as the church teaches I should. I cannot in good faith marry a man I never will be able to have physical attraction for. I could not do that to someone else. At the same time, I love the church and will not live my life in sin. I bear my cross like Jesus did, and I hope my testimony to this fact can help someone else who might be struggling with this issue. That is why I replied.
2. As far as whether Gab123 is helping me in any way, I really do not know. Perhaps making me think about the issue and its theological and ethical relevance and relevance in my own life and in the lives of others.

I am willing to discuss this further with anyone who would like to, with the understanding they they need to be respectful of church teachings.

 

[MaryClare]

Thank you so very much for having the guts to say that even though some people do not want to hear it apparently. It is a spiritual conspiracy contrived by Satan to trap souls like quicksand, and only following the will of God and his Church and being saved from this sin, just like any other, and it is indeed a sin, is going to save the soul of a person trapped in this spiritual warfare.

 

[MaryClare]

I have never personally met a priest or nun who invested in the ministry of working with those who I will, for the sake of clarity refer to as those tempted by homosexual attraction, and cast into the middle of a real spiritual warfare battle many aren’t even realizing is taking place. I would call it the Quicksand Conspiracy because that is a good analogy for what it feels like to actually live through this temptation and to try and lead a Holy Christian life according to Church teachings.

It might help if someone put together a ministry of such that submitted to the authority of the Magestirium of the Catholic Church, but the problem is, the LGBT movement, the Quicksand Conspiracy is going to fight that tooth and nail. They have been doing it since the beginning. They will not stop until the ordained time when Satan is cast into the lake of fire with his angels that is the second death.

 

[MaryClare]

All unrepentant sin leads to death.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Are you aware of Courage? Do you think there should be another ministry? Is Courage missing something specific?

ETA: Courage

 

[MaryClare]

I am not aware of Courage, I will definitely have to look into that.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

I did offer a lot of suggestion with communities
but they been ignored. I think everyone is just here for arguing

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Communities or community? Different things, different approaches. The latter is more doable but the former should not be off the table of discussion.