What Bad Experiences you have had with Wicca?

[Cari]

That is only the last line of the Rede, and then you should read the Wiccan Crede as well.

I certainly will check it out. Thanks.

Have you heard of karma?

Yes. It is a Hindu and Buddhist belief. If Wicca has absorbed that as well, then it is only on a person-by-person basis.

The law of attraction? That is partly what enforces the rules. The other part is God/Goddess, two parts in one whole, representing male and female energies.

Which God? Which Goddess? Those who follow a Norse tradition wouldn’t have the same concept of male/female dieties as one who was into an Egyptian group. My point is that as much as I appreciate your feedback, it is disingenuous to act as if you speak for “Wicca” as a whole. As your next statement suggests:

The only punishment as of now is the karma you get back. God is always loving and forgiving.

Really? I can think of easily half a dozen “gods” and “goddesses” that would NOT have “loving” or “forgiving” on their resume. And again,

My point is that as there is no agreed upon central authority in Wicca, there is no way to assure, or even to assume, that the majority won’t be able to justify slipping into “dark magic”. I use your suggestion that I read the Wiccan Creed as a case in point. A quick Google search revealed an abundance of sites claiming to have the Wiccan Creed on them, a sampling follows:

themetaarts.com/archives/200304/wicca.html
dragonwinds.com/phoenix/three.shtml
controverscial.com/The%20Witches%20Creed.htm

If there isn’t even a concensus on this, and if Wiccans are the first to admit that their beliefs are nebulous and eclectic, then it’s going to be hard to convince others to accept Wicca (but not necessarily Wiccans) as the gentle, peaceful belief system it claims to be.

 

[blacktiger057]

Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust.
Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give.

You can never justify dark magick. No where in Wicca does it say that! It’s pretty much the Ten Commandments. Just like you can’t justify breaking the Big Ten you can’t justify breaking the Rede. I know evil people who claim to be Christians. In the religion itself, there is nothing wrong.

You are partly right in one thing, though. In Wicca there are some groups. There is Gardnerarian Wicca, which is the main Wicca group, and there is electic wiccans who sort of improvise on their beliefs systems.

Some people take the gods and goddesses from the ancient greek/roman times, but I’m not really comfortable with that so I don’t. Yes, there are Roman gods and goddesses that aren’t at all like God.

I guess this is where my Christian beliefs come in…I think of the God/Goddess as two parts of one whole, and they are both loving and forgiving.

But every religion has different gods and goddesses. The thing about WIcca is that it doesn’t say “If you don’t believe that then you can’t be Wicca.” No, it lets us choose with our hearts what we percieve to be true. That is one of the reasons why it is so appealing to people. If Wicca did have something like the pope, then it wouldn’t have a free, natural spirit anymore. It would only be based on what one person believes. That is one of the biggest ways Wicca differs from Christianity.

Some are solitary practitioners, some work as a coven. People are capable of following their hearts. Do not assume since they do not have a pope that it is evil and blind, because the ones that are truly Wiccan aren’t.

 

[IanCorrigan]

Can one of the practicing Wiccans responding to this thread answer this one for me?

If the Rede ways, “An’ it harm none, do as thou will”, but there is no concensus on the ultimate authority (God/Goddess/Earth/Spirit/etc.), then who, exactly, enforces this? What is the punishment for breaking it? Is there room for contrition and forgiveness?

These are all questions paganism couldn’t answer for me. Thankfully, Holy Mother Church could.

In general, Wiccans don’t think good behavior is hard for people. We don’t believe people tend to ill more than good, and we think that the ordinary human mind is capable of determing right and wrong.

The word ‘rede’ means ‘advice’ - it isn’t a ‘law’, it’s a good advice about how to live a happy life. It isn’t the only advice wiccans seek, just one that is considered core to the system. Wiccans also look to ideas of virtue, to a kind of western version of ‘karma’ (what do is what I get), and to the advice of wise people. But we figure that every human is able to figure out what’s good, so we don’t need detailed rules and laws.

As to ‘enforcement’, the universe generally takes care of it - if you live like a fool, your life will be foolish, if you live in violence, your life will be violent - behavior is its own reward or punishment.

Ethics and morals aren’t difficult - most of humanity’s natural urges aren’t ‘evil’, or even dangerous. Left to ourselves, we’ll do ok.
Ian

 

[blacktiger057]

In general, Wiccans don’t think good behavior is hard for people. We don’t believe people tend to ill more than good, and we think that the ordinary human mind is capable of determing right and wrong.

The word ‘rede’ means ‘advice’ - it isn’t a ‘law’, it’s a good advice about how to live a happy life. It isn’t the only advice wiccans seek, just one that is considered core to the system. Wiccans also look to ideas of virtue, to a kind of western version of ‘karma’ (what do is what I get), and to the advice of wise people. But we figure that every human is able to figure out what’s good, so we don’t need detailed rules and laws.

As to ‘enforcement’, the universe generally takes care of it - if you live like a fool, your life will be foolish, if you live in violence, your life will be violent - behavior is its own reward or punishment.

Ethics and morals aren’t difficult - most of humanity’s natural urges aren’t ‘evil’, or even dangerous. Left to ourselves, we’ll do ok.
Ian

Great post! You explained it much better than I did!

 

[Cari]

In general, Wiccans don’t think good behavior is hard for people. We don’t believe people tend to ill more than good, and we think that the ordinary human mind is capable of determing right and wrong.

The word ‘rede’ means ‘advice’ - it isn’t a ‘law’, it’s a good advice about how to live a happy life. It isn’t the only advice wiccans seek, just one that is considered core to the system. Wiccans also look to ideas of virtue, to a kind of western version of ‘karma’ (what do is what I get), and to the advice of wise people. But we figure that every human is able to figure out what’s good, so we don’t need detailed rules and laws.

As to ‘enforcement’, the universe generally takes care of it - if you live like a fool, your life will be foolish, if you live in violence, your life will be violent - behavior is its own reward or punishment.

Ethics and morals aren’t difficult - most of humanity’s natural urges aren’t ‘evil’, or even dangerous. Left to ourselves, we’ll do ok.
Ian

So basically, you’re talking about moral relativism. What your mind determines is “right” or “wrong” is fine for you, what another Wiccan/pagan determines is “right” or “wrong” for them is then equally fine.

Other than an optimistic hope in the basic goodness in people, what moral code is there? You state that the word “rede” means “advice”, then say that one’s life will be marked by one’s actions. How, then, would you explain serial killers, for instance, who never get caught. They live as they please, and aren’t suffering from their actions.
Or what about the poor, the ill, the disenfranchised? Are they being punished for how they lived their lives? Sorry, but any notion of Karma that doesn’t address these issues isn’t a well-thought out philosophy.

You say that Wiccans don’t need detailed rules and laws to figure out what is good- then what does this mean for Wiccans who break society’s laws (and I’m sure that there are some)? They couldn’t figure out what was good? They did, but ignored it?

Heaven knows there’s enough Christians who break God’s AND man’s laws, and we DO have a detailed set of rules. I find it hard to believe that moral relativism is going to do any better. We Christians can really make a mess of things, even with God clearly explaining how to do it- I feel a profound sorrow for one who chooses a belief system that expects- no, takes pride in- its adherants slogging it out for themselves.

 

[blacktiger057]

So basically, you’re talking about moral relativism. What your mind determines is “right” or “wrong” is fine for you, what another Wiccan/pagan determines is “right” or “wrong” for them is then equally fine.

No! What we are saying is that no one needs the Bible to tell them that killing is wrong. We all have common sense. If you practice dark magick, you know its wrong. But some people do it anyway.

Other than an optimistic hope in the basic goodness in people, what moral code is there? You state that the word “rede” means “advice”, then say that one’s life will be marked by one’s actions. How, then, would you explain serial killers, for instance, who never get caught. They live as they please, and aren’t suffering from their actions.
Or what about the poor, the ill, the disenfranchised? Are they being punished for how they lived their lives? Sorry, but any notion of Karma that doesn’t address these issues isn’t a well-thought out philosophy.

I already told you the moral code. I’m not going over that again! In Wicca, there is the belief of reincarnation. The people who live in the streets could be for three reasons:

1. They didn’t work hard in life so far so they ended up poor, their karma returning to them.
2. Past life karma
3. They/God simply chose to live a life of struggle so that they would learn from it.

A killer’s karma could come in the next life, but usually it comes in the current one because killers usually always get put in jail. Karma is actually pretty well thought out if you read some books on it. I’m just trying to briefly explain it all to you.

You say that Wiccans don’t need detailed rules and laws to figure out what is good- then what does this mean for Wiccans who break society’s laws (and I’m sure that there are some)? They couldn’t figure out what was good? They did, but ignored it?

If someone practices dark magick, then they wouldn’t be Wiccan anymore. Christians can’t always figure out what is good. No matter what religion, if someone kills someone else they go to jail. Those are the consequences. At least in America…

The Ten Commandments is basically the moral idea of the Rede. Don’t harm anyone. Love everything. Forgive. That is the core teachings of the Bible as well.

 

[IanCorrigan]

Yes. It is a Hindu and Buddhist belief. If Wicca has absorbed that as well, then it is only on a person-by-person basis.

Wicca has had, pretty much from the beginning, a teaching called the ‘threefold law’ which says that anything one does will come back to you three-fold. This is a poetic way of expressing what hindus call ‘karma’ and has been a core teaching of Wicca from the outset.

** Really? I can think of easily half a dozen “gods” and “goddesses” that would NOT have “loving” or “forgiving” on their resume. **

Loving and forgiving are proper to some deities, but less so to others. Paganism values all natural things - war is as holy as peace, death as holy as life.

The Gods are not about morality in Paganism - the Gods are about nature - morality is a human matter. You wouldn’t hold the biblical god accountable to human standards, after all…

**My point is that as there is no agreed upon central authority in Wicca, there is no way to assure, or even to assume, that the majority won’t be able to justify slipping into “dark magic”. **

I’d say the majority of humans never really choose bad deeds. People are no more likely to use ill magic than they are to punch someone in the nose - actually, the magick is rather more work.

Central authority is, of course, never able to really control people’s behavior. All central authority generally does is add an additional layer of foolishness to human institutions. Culture is always managed by consensus, never by legislation.

I use your suggestion that I read the Wiccan Creed as a case in point. A quick Google search revealed an abundance of sites claiming to have the Wiccan Creed on them, a sampling follows:

The other poster was naive - there is no such thing in traditional Wicca as a ‘Wiccan creed’. Wicca isn’t credal - one does not have to agree to '‘believe in’ anything specific except perhaps in the power of humans to contact the divine, and vice versa.

Johnny-come-lately wiccans have occasionally attempted to imitate faith-based religions by inventing a ‘creed’. Such a thing has never been part of the traditional craft.

**If there isn’t even a concensus on this, and if Wiccans are the first to admit that their beliefs are nebulous and eclectic, **

First we could discuss the various sectarians creeds in Christianity, and when and whether they agree. But more directly, Wicca (and Paganism generally) is not based on beliefs - one does not have to adhere to doctrines to be Wiccan. Wicca is about ritual, meditation, and the experiences of the divine that ritual and meditation produce.

About ethics, as I say, we take a simple approach - be nice, don’t be nasty’ - how complicated does it have to be?
Ian

 

[blacktiger057]

Back to the main idea, can we all treat Wicca with the respect that we should treat any other religion and the respect we’d want Catholicism to be treated by others? It isn’t that hard to do.

It is not evil. That is a fact. Please stop making baseless claims about this and talk more like Cari, who backs up her statements

Thanks!

Scott

 

[blacktiger057]

The other poster was naive - there is no such thing in traditional Wicca as a ‘Wiccan creed’. Wicca isn’t credal - one does not have to agree to '‘believe in’ anything specific except perhaps in the power of humans to contact the divine, and vice versa.

There are many different forms of Wicca. My Wicca and your Wicca are probably a little different, because everyone is unique. No, you don’t have to do everything the creed says. But some of its moral guidelines are good!

 

[Writer]

I’m short on time, but the posts on this thread are amazing. Our family’s experience was different. We moved into an apartment complex in the Bellingham, Washington area. We were still fairly-newly married. Shortly after moving in, we realized that we were surrounded by tenants who were practicing Wicca. There was an upside down cross just across the way, for example. It was a very disturbing environment to live, and we felt oppressed all the time we were there. We tried to move a short ways away, but we ended-up having to return and live with our family again for a few months and (in essence) start our marriage anew. It was an unhappy time that seemed to be connected in some way to our original move to that apartment complex…

 

[blacktiger057]

I’m short on time, but the posts on this thread are amazing. Our family’s experience was different. We moved into an apartment complex in the Bellingham, Washington area. We were still fairly-newly married. Shortly after moving in, we realized that we were surrounded by tenants who were practicing Wicca. There was an upside down cross just across the way, for example. It was a very disturbing environment to live, and we felt oppressed all the time we were there. We tried to move a short ways away, but we ended-up having to return and live with our family again for a few months and (in essence) start our marriage anew. It was an unhappy time that seemed to be connected in some way to our original move to that apartment complex…

Maybe they weren’t Wicca at all but Satanists and dark magick practitioners. The upside down cross is a Satanist symbol, just like the upside down pentagram is. Those were definately not Wiccans…

 

[Nevarlander]

I don’t know that it was Wicca so much as a combination of Hermetic alchemical silliness and traditional African religion (long story there), but I had to bind demons away from some of my personal possessions yesterday because of it. I didn’t use the best physical method for it, so they’ll never be in the same shape again. That was a bad experience with paganism.

Advice for future home exorcisms: if you have anything oil-based you’re trying to de-demonize, do not directly mix holy water with it if you want to keep it afterwards.

I’ve never actually had real-life dealings with real pagans of any stripe, so can’t say I’ve had bad experiences with Wicca or Wiccans per se.

 

[KarenNC]

Shortly after moving in, we realized that we were surrounded by tenants who were practicing Wicca. There was an upside down cross just across the way, for example. It was a very disturbing environment to live, and we felt oppressed all the time we were there.

I’m curious, what lead you to attribute the upside down cross to Wicca? In what other specific ways did you come to realize that you were “surrounded by tenants who were practicing Wicca?” Did they tell you so, or was this based on observation of specific actions?

 

[blacktiger057]

I don’t know that it was Wicca so much as a combination of Hermetic alchemical silliness and traditional African religion (long story there), but I had to bind demons away from some of my personal possessions yesterday because of it. I didn’t use the best physical method for it, so they’ll never be in the same shape again. That was a bad experience with paganism.

Advice for future home exorcisms: if you have anything oil-based you’re trying to de-demonize, do not directly mix holy water with it if you want to keep it afterwards.

I’ve never actually had real-life dealings with real pagans of any stripe, so can’t say I’ve had bad experiences with Wicca or Wiccans per se.

Again, Wiccans are just as against dark magick as Catholics are. Why did you say it was Wicca when it was really an African religion and some bad magick?

 

[IanCorrigan]

**]So basically, you’re talking about moral relativism. What your mind determines is “right” or “wrong” is fine for you, what another Wiccan/pagan determines is “right” or “wrong” for them is then equally fine. **

Yes, I do assert that moral relativism is superior to moral absolutism or legalism. Morality derives from the consensus of the culture in which it exists. Society creates and enforces morality. It has little to do with what is in the ‘mind’ of the individual, and everything to do with what society will permit. Fortunately, we live in a permissive society, in which we can have a discussion about things like unmarried sexuality, worship of images or fair treatment of workers, but legislate only on what we reach general concensus on.

**Other than an optimistic hope in the basic goodness in people, what moral code is there? You state that the word “rede” means “advice”, then say that one’s life will be marked by one’s actions. How, then, would you explain serial killers, for instance, who never get caught. They live as they please, and aren’t suffering from their actions. **

Personally I assume that serial killers, bank robbers, etc live in a world of fear and despair, in which they are tormented constantly. Why else would someone behave that way? But all systems know that some people (and some non-human beings) will turn out to be dangerous, and ‘crazy-bad’ by local cultural standards. Why that happens has been a matter for philosophy and science. But it’s a pretty unusual circumstance.

Or what about the poor, the ill, the disenfranchised? Are they being punished for how they lived their lives? Sorry, but any notion of Karma that doesn’t address these issues isn’t a well-thought out philosophy.

Surely you’re not suggesting that Christianity has a decent answer to the probelm of evil?? Why some folks don’t get blessed is always an issue in human life - all spiritual systems seem to want to help those who don’t feel blessed to get some blessing. It’s certainly the job of Pagan spirituality to help everyone know the blessings - whether everyone can be blessed by becoming wealthy… history suggests not.

**You say that Wiccans don’t need detailed rules and laws to figure out what is good- then what does this mean for Wiccans who break society’s laws (and I’m sure that there are some)? They couldn’t figure out what was good? They did, but ignored it? **

Yep. Humans are capable of getting screwed up - commonly folks who break the law are trying to achieve some good - they’re trying to eat, or get by, or are filled with some righteous anger. They are too stupid or foolish to figure out a better way. They come into conflict with society, and society works to reduce the threat they pose, usually to their discomfort.

Pagan ways attempt to teach people how to observe their own minds and hearts, and teach various ‘virtues’ in various ways. In the non-Wiccan but neopagan system I keep, we talk about ‘diligence, community and enjoyment’ and about ‘strength, pride and courage’, and about ‘piety, vision and wisdom’ These are not ‘laws’, they are good advice, that will help keep anyone from getting screwed up and making big errors.

**Heaven knows there’s enough Christians who break God’s AND man’s laws, and we DO have a detailed set of rules. **

Certainly in no lesser percentages than wiccans, I’m sure…

**I find it hard to believe that moral relativism is going to do any better. **

It can hardly do worse. Everything we had in the squalor of, say 18th century Europe was the outcome of centuries of moral absolutism.

** feel a profound sorrow for one who chooses a belief system that expects- no, takes pride in- its adherants slogging it out for themselves.**

The divine is in us all, I think, and we do have our relationship with the personal divine as well - the Gods provide various instructive tales, and fill us with wisdom. But in the end we must use our judgement, discernment and compassion to figure out how to act, rather than just follow a rule.

Ian

 

[Nevarlander]

blacktiger,
I didn’t read the whole thread and figured “Wicca” was just being used as a catchall term. The Hermetic-y Rosicrucian stuff is, IIRC, one of Wicca’s direct ancestors (if we’re talking real Gardnerian/Dianic Wicca here rather than just the stuff that calls itself Wicca)*, so my experience is slightly having to do with Wicca.
And I don’t think there was any kind of dark magic involved with my stuff. I don’t believe there was anything being done of evil intent - it’s just that to Catholics, IIRC, all magic, even “white magic”, is black magic because you’re messing with stuff that’s not the Most High. That’s why I had to exorcise it.

• Gerald Gardner started his magical journey in a Rosicrucian order. Hilarity ensued.

 

[KarenNC]

The upside down cross is a Satanist symbol, just like the upside down pentagram is. Those were definately not Wiccans…

Judging based on appearances can be deceiving. An upside down pentagram can be a symbol of a specific degree of initiation in Gardnerian Wicca, IIRC,
altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa100102a.htm

and an upside down cross can also be the symbol of St. Peter, as he was said to have requested to be crucified upside down as he felt he was unworthy to die in the same manner as Jesus
answers.com/topic/cross-of-st-peter.

In the Middle Ages, the pentacle was used as a Christian symbol of the five wounds of Christ (among other things) and can be found on the shield of Sir Gawain in the 14th century poem, “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.”

lib.rochester.edu/CAMELOT/sggk.htm
“Then they brought him his shield, which was of bright red, with the pentangle painted thereon in gleaming gold.7 And why that noble prince bare the pentangle I am minded to tell you, though my tale tarry thereby. It is a sign that Solomon set ere-while, as betokening truth; for it is a figure with five points and each line overlaps the other, and nowhere hath it beginning or end, so that in English it is called “the endless knot.” And therefore was it well suiting to this knight and to his arms, since Gawain was faithful in five and five-fold, for pure was he as gold, void of all villainy and endowed with all virtues. Therefore he bare the pentangle on shield and surcoat as truest of heroes and gentlest of knights.
For first he was faultless in his five senses; and his five fingers never failed him; and all his trust upon earth was in the five wounds that Christ bare on the cross, as the Creed tells. And wherever this knight found himself in stress of battle he deemed well that he drew his strength from the five joys which the Queen of Heaven had of her Child. And for this cause did he bear an image of Our Lady on the one half of his shield, that whenever he looked upon it he might not lack for aid. And the fifth five that the hero used were frankness and fellowship above all, purity and courtesy that never failed him, and compassion that surpasses all; and in these five virtues was that hero wrapped and clothed. And all these, five-fold, were linked one in the other, so that they had no end, and were fixed on five points that never failed, neither at any side were they joined or sundered, nor could ye find beginning or end. And therefore on his shield was the knot shapen, red-gold upon red, which is the pure pentangle.”

Symbols are nothing more than images. They have no inherent meaning, only that which is given to them by their users. They are used by many cultures to mean many things.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I’m interested in your story…tell me, did they practice any bad spells? But then again sometimes people can get possessed because they are too distracted with their lives. My uncle being a priest and an exorcist, I know many Christians who have been possessed as well. All the bad experiences about WIcca have been with some of its people. I couold make a list of all the evil Christians I know. But the bottom line is this: Wiccans who practice dark magick aren’t Wiccans, just like Christians who pray to the devil to harm people aren’t true Christians…

Bad spells is realtive. The idea of “dark magick” is realtive. Any Witch worth their salt knows that magick is neither black nor white and deals with intent.

And from my own personal experiences, intent has nothing to with it and any form of enegetic maipulation of any type (spell work, reiki, etc) is demonic. No, not “dark” “black” or whatever term we are giving it to mask it from what it really is, is demonic. “White” magick is demonic. The greatest thing Satan ever did was convince peopel that he does not exist. And with that, that it is possible to have “White Magick”.

I am done with this conversation.

 

[blacktiger057]

Bad spells is realtive. The idea of “dark magick” is realtive. Any Witch worth their salt knows that magick is neither black nor white and deals with intent.

And from my own personal experiences, intent has nothing to with it and any form of enegetic maipulation of any type (spell work, reiki, etc) is demonic. No, not “dark” “black” or whatever term we are giving it to mask it from what it really is, is demonic. “White” magick is demonic. The greatest thing Satan ever did was convince peopel that he does not exist. And with that, that it is possible to have “White Magick”.

I am done with this conversation.

Yes, I know what matters is the inent. What really determines if it is good or bad is the person using it. If you are using it for summoning a demon to harm someone, then some would call it black magick.

Yes, still your claims are baseless! Okay, if you use magick for only good and healing, then it is fine. Magick has changed my life. Satan would certainly do no such thing as magick has done for me.

And isn’t this contradictory with the Bible? The Bible says that demons can create nothing that can be used for good, yet I use magick for good quite often. Even prayer is a form of magick.

You will probably respond to this by saying magick is prohibited in the Bible. I think it should have been prohibited back then as well because people were much more violent and uncivilized back then. They were not ready to really understand magick and most people who claimed to be magicians often used magick for their own dark purposes or were fakes. That is why I believe it was prohibited back then.

 

[blacktiger057]

Judging based on appearances can be deceiving. An upside down pentagram can be a symbol of a specific degree of initiation in Gardnerian Wicca, IIRC,
altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa100102a.htm

and an upside down cross can also be the symbol of St. Peter, as he was said to have requested to be crucified upside down as he felt he was unworthy to die in the same manner as Jesus
answers.com/topic/cross-of-st-peter.

In the Middle Ages, the pentacle was used as a Christian symbol of the five wounds of Christ (among other things) and can be found on the shield of Sir Gawain in the 14th century poem, “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.”

lib.rochester.edu/CAMELOT/sggk.htm
“Then they brought him his shield, which was of bright red, with the pentangle painted thereon in gleaming gold.7 And why that noble prince bare the pentangle I am minded to tell you, though my tale tarry thereby. It is a sign that Solomon set ere-while, as betokening truth; for it is a figure with five points and each line overlaps the other, and nowhere hath it beginning or end, so that in English it is called “the endless knot.” And therefore was it well suiting to this knight and to his arms, since Gawain was faithful in five and five-fold, for pure was he as gold, void of all villainy and endowed with all virtues. Therefore he bare the pentangle on shield and surcoat as truest of heroes and gentlest of knights.
For first he was faultless in his five senses; and his five fingers never failed him; and all his trust upon earth was in the five wounds that Christ bare on the cross, as the Creed tells. And wherever this knight found himself in stress of battle he deemed well that he drew his strength from the five joys which the Queen of Heaven had of her Child. And for this cause did he bear an image of Our Lady on the one half of his shield, that whenever he looked upon it he might not lack for aid. And the fifth five that the hero used were frankness and fellowship above all, purity and courtesy that never failed him, and compassion that surpasses all; and in these five virtues was that hero wrapped and clothed. And all these, five-fold, were linked one in the other, so that they had no end, and were fixed on five points that never failed, neither at any side were they joined or sundered, nor could ye find beginning or end. And therefore on his shield was the knot shapen, red-gold upon red, which is the pure pentangle.”

Symbols are nothing more than images. They have no inherent meaning, only that which is given to them by their users. They are used by many cultures to mean many things.

Cool! I didn’t know that. You are right. What really matters is what the symbols stand for according to the people that bear them. But if the person in someone’s post above did send her a demonic entity fo some sort, then my guess for the upside down cross would be satanistic.