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phil3
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The reality is nothing that has been suggested would have or will have stopped these events. There is nothing 100% nothing you or anyone else you can do to stop them.
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LilyM
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Uh uh - even if you go PER CAPITA the US, according to wikipedia, still has roughly DOUBLE the rate of civilian gun ownership of any other country. Nothing to do with population size.
Gun laws on the books are one thing, enforcing them is another. The will to enforce them is a third.
I find it fascinating that people who will loudly denounce Constitutional “rights” such as abortion and gay marriage will hold up the same (obviously very fallible) Constitution and judicial interpretation thereof when it’s a right they happen to have been indoctrinated into by a culture which looks from the outside, frankly, to amount to little short of idolisation of the gun.
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Erikaspirit16
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Nihilo
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Or, the right to bear arms is natural, inherent, inalienable, fundamental, inviolable. And it exists whether or not our law justly recognizes, affirms, protects, and defends it.vz71:
Not need. Want.casslean:
It is when people discuss the actual process to do this that they realize just how unpopular this particular route is.
More people understand they need the 2nd amendment in place then those that want it removed.
Almost none have the right to bear arms in their laws.
And it could just be none. I’m just not sure if there isn’t one.
Also, there are very many more countries who don’t defend the right to bear arms, and who suffer from murder rates exceeding the US’s by factors of 2, 3, 4, and more. Many of them are south of our border, and are so dangerous that refugees flock here to the land of the Second Amendment and guns, because it’s so much safer. There are so many, that we’re considering building a wall to manage their entrance better.
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Erikaspirit16
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One more point. The right wing is big on distractions after shootings. Their favorite red herrings are “It was because they were crazy” and “It was those violent video games.” Nonsense.
According to the National Center for Health Statistics, fewer than 5% of the 120,000 gun-related killings in the US from 2001-2010 were carried out by people diagnosed with mental illness. Sure, you can say–after the fact–“He must have been crazy to do that…” But if you took away guns from all those diagnosed with mental illnes BEFORE shootings, you’d be left with 95% of the deaths.
Well, how about those video games? A 2004 report by the Secret Service and the Dept. of Education looked at about 36 school shootings. Only 12% of the shooters in those cases showed any interest at all in violent video games. And of course if you REALLY believe that violent video games were the cause of mass killings, Japan and S. Korea would be waist deep in bodies. But they’re not. Because it’s a red herring.
Finally, some bipartisan stupidity. Quick question: where were the two shootings last weekend? If you said El Paso and Dayton, you get an A. Trump thinks they were in El Paso and Toledo. Not to be outdone in the stupidity department, Biden did him one better when he got BOTH cities wrong: He said they were in Houston and Michigan. How hard is it to learn the names of two cities? Hopeless.
According to the National Center for Health Statistics, fewer than 5% of the 120,000 gun-related killings in the US from 2001-2010 were carried out by people diagnosed with mental illness. Sure, you can say–after the fact–“He must have been crazy to do that…” But if you took away guns from all those diagnosed with mental illnes BEFORE shootings, you’d be left with 95% of the deaths.
Well, how about those video games? A 2004 report by the Secret Service and the Dept. of Education looked at about 36 school shootings. Only 12% of the shooters in those cases showed any interest at all in violent video games. And of course if you REALLY believe that violent video games were the cause of mass killings, Japan and S. Korea would be waist deep in bodies. But they’re not. Because it’s a red herring.
Finally, some bipartisan stupidity. Quick question: where were the two shootings last weekend? If you said El Paso and Dayton, you get an A. Trump thinks they were in El Paso and Toledo. Not to be outdone in the stupidity department, Biden did him one better when he got BOTH cities wrong: He said they were in Houston and Michigan. How hard is it to learn the names of two cities? Hopeless.
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Odilon
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No they aren’t. It seems that in all of the shooting incidents of late, the shooters had bought from licensed dealers and had passed the background checks. If I sell one of my guns to my brother or neighbor I don’t see any reason why a background check should be required.
Good.
So what? That is something the state needs to address.
Oh there’s that “common sense” claim again. Who get’s to decide what is “common sense” legislation? I think we already have enough “common sense” gun laws on the books and there should be no further infringements on our 2nd Amendment rights.
At what point will you folks say we have enough laws already on the books? We always hear that we need just “one more law” and that will do the trick, and when that new law fails to stop a shooting somewhere the refrain for another new law is quickly called for. Enough is enough and it is time the infringements come to an end.
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Nihilo
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Reality is we have a philosophical dispute. Classical liberalism on one side, which holds human rights and their defense as the highest good No Matter What, and something on the marxism spectrum on the other side.phil3:
Is this a discussion? Someone suggests a solution, and the gun enthusiasts become feral about their “gun rights”? Moscow Mitchell has two bipartisan legislative proposals on his desk since February, and he (single handedly) prevented them to be put it up to vote!
Of course, right now, after these two massacres there is some “discussion”. But there was some after Sandy Hook, after the Las Vegas massacre, after all sorts of high school shootings… and what came out of it? Nothing! The parents of the victims were accused of “staging” the whole massacre!
It is time to face reality.
The “solutions” offered by people on the marxism spectrum beg the question and also flatly ignore all the gun control laws already made, and for many decades in most cases.
Gun control hasn’t solved anything yet, and gun control proponents continue to say we just need more. Why has it not worked yet, after decades and hundreds or thousands of different gun control laws, federal, state, and municipal? No we need more.
Seems like gun control’s never going to work. And it also seems like we’re going to keep making more and more gun control laws, which will continue to not work, until our Bill of Rights is a complete dead letter.
So a solution to a classical liberal, is that we need to defend the right to bear arms Better. Forcefully. We need to obey our supreme law the Constitution. The marxist believes in gun control. There is no meeting between these two polar opposites, and classical liberalism and marxism are polar opposites and mutually exclusive.
And that’s why you are seeing what you’re seeing, imo.
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Odilon
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Amazinggggg.
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Odilon
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Title X of the U.S. Code defines the militia. According to it, there is a “regulated” militia and an “un-regulated” militia made up of the citizenry between certain ages. Don’t believe me, go look it up for yourself.
The Supreme Court ruled in the Heller case a few years back that firearms ownership is an “individual” right which includes the use of firearms commonly used.
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Erikaspirit16
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Actually you are underestimating. The 2018 murder rates (# per 100,000) are approx.:
USA 5
Guatamala 22
Honduras 38
El Salvador 50
But of course this isn’t about murder rates. It’s about mass shootings. Let’s look at those!
US 323 in 2018 (defined as 4+ deaths, not counting the shooter, at one time)
Guatamala ?
Honduras 39
El Salvador ?
Statistics from other countries might be out there, but they’re hard to find. My guess is that there are mass shootings in Guatamala and El Salvador, but they’re probably gang related, not some random shooting of random people.
And of course once you look at the murder statistics, it doesn’t take a genius to understand why the decent people are heading north.
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Minks
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Poverty of material goods may have been more obvious in the USA 50-90 years ago, but character was high on the list of desired acquisitions. By and large, kids emulated kindness and strength of character, and both were rewarded by a person’s stature in the community. People WANTED to be the best they could be. Now? Not so much.
By contast, things are generally much easier for Americans today, and few seem to care about the future or developing and maintaining a good reputation built upon their sterling character. Get what you want, when you want it, in the quickest way possible, with little concern about method. Have a good time NOW! Let it all hang out! Worry about the future later.
My high school class motto was, “He climbs highest who helps another up.” In reality, it seemed to be the motto of most people of that 50s era, whereas today, personal greed for the best job, the best house, the best party supercedes genuine caring for our neighbor.
The larger the metropolitan area, the worse the problems are, and the cracks into which the misfits fall are deeper and wider. When misfits can’t seem to make life work for them like it does for others, they begin to hold a grudge and latch onto revenge for their seeming injustices.
We need to take an interest in those around us. Surely at least one person was concerned about the thinking patterns of the El Paso Coward. Why didn’t he/she alert law enforcement? Abnormal behavior IS to the left on a mental health continuum, indicating a lesser or greater degree of mental illness.
Personal, caring contact with all students, when they’re young in preschool, and throughout their school years makes a tremendous difference in the academic performance and achievement levels attained. We need to spot the misfits early & help them onto a happier path. Everybody needs a cheerleader. If a child isn’t on the right path by the fall of 4th grade, the correction is much harder & may be impossible. Happy children become taxpaying adults. They’re appalled by the slaughter of innocents. Misfits? Some become mass killers.
By contast, things are generally much easier for Americans today, and few seem to care about the future or developing and maintaining a good reputation built upon their sterling character. Get what you want, when you want it, in the quickest way possible, with little concern about method. Have a good time NOW! Let it all hang out! Worry about the future later.
My high school class motto was, “He climbs highest who helps another up.” In reality, it seemed to be the motto of most people of that 50s era, whereas today, personal greed for the best job, the best house, the best party supercedes genuine caring for our neighbor.
The larger the metropolitan area, the worse the problems are, and the cracks into which the misfits fall are deeper and wider. When misfits can’t seem to make life work for them like it does for others, they begin to hold a grudge and latch onto revenge for their seeming injustices.
We need to take an interest in those around us. Surely at least one person was concerned about the thinking patterns of the El Paso Coward. Why didn’t he/she alert law enforcement? Abnormal behavior IS to the left on a mental health continuum, indicating a lesser or greater degree of mental illness.
Personal, caring contact with all students, when they’re young in preschool, and throughout their school years makes a tremendous difference in the academic performance and achievement levels attained. We need to spot the misfits early & help them onto a happier path. Everybody needs a cheerleader. If a child isn’t on the right path by the fall of 4th grade, the correction is much harder & may be impossible. Happy children become taxpaying adults. They’re appalled by the slaughter of innocents. Misfits? Some become mass killers.
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Erikaspirit16
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I remember being a substitute teacher at a semi-rural school 20 years ago. This one boy (grade 10) came to class every day dressed in a camouflage outfit. He would sit there and read gun magazines all class. Creepy? You bet. But what do you do about it? Tell the police he’s dressed funny and reads gun magazines? Neither of those is a crime. I certainly wouldn’t turn my back on him if I met him outside school, but multiply that by a million or so. Do we expect the police to follow all these people around 24/7? The point is you can’t do anything about these people until they actually commit a crime, and then it’s too late.
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Nikolaite
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What amazes me is the wishful thinking of so many people who think that revoking the 2nd Amendment or making firearms generally illegal will solve this mass shooting problem.
I would ask what making drugs illegal has done to the drug trade. Seems that a very attractive black market has cropped up, and laws have not done much to keep immoral people from violating the law.
As a machinist, I know very well that there will be a cracking trade in black market firearms as soon as they become illegal. But who will have all of them? The immoral people.
What I don’t get is why people care whether moral people have semi-auto, bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action shotguns, rifles, pistols or single- or double-action revolvers. Why do those folks have to be concerned about losing their private property as a consequence of the evil action of some group of immoral people?
I contend some people here ought to reread Rerum novarum. Here’s the link to it on the Vatican website in English: Rerum novarum. At the very least use the CTRL+f function and search the document for the words “private property.”
I would ask what making drugs illegal has done to the drug trade. Seems that a very attractive black market has cropped up, and laws have not done much to keep immoral people from violating the law.
As a machinist, I know very well that there will be a cracking trade in black market firearms as soon as they become illegal. But who will have all of them? The immoral people.
What I don’t get is why people care whether moral people have semi-auto, bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action shotguns, rifles, pistols or single- or double-action revolvers. Why do those folks have to be concerned about losing their private property as a consequence of the evil action of some group of immoral people?
I contend some people here ought to reread Rerum novarum. Here’s the link to it on the Vatican website in English: Rerum novarum. At the very least use the CTRL+f function and search the document for the words “private property.”
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MiserereMeiDei
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Don’t forget regular grenade explosions in Sweden, ak47’s killing 153 or so in France or vans of peace that caused them to install ballards nigh on everywhere in western Europe. Thank goodness for their “common sense gun laws.”
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MiserereMeiDei
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Who cares about the opinions of outsiders?
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MiserereMeiDei
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Good luck taking 300 million guns from people who don’t want to give them up. I’ll get the popcorn ready.
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Nihilo
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So what is the history of the mass murders by gun per capita metric? How is it changing over time? And how does its history in the US compare with other countries?Nihilo:
Actually you are underestimating. The 2018 murder rates (# per 100,000) are approx.:
USA 5
Guatamala 22
Honduras 38
El Salvador 50
But of course this isn’t about murder rates. It’s about mass shootings. Let’s look at those!
US 323 in 2018 (defined as 4+ deaths, not counting the shooter, at one time)
If their criminal organizations /enterprises /businesses are targeted by a good enough police /military force, they would be destroyed, and then murder rates in their country would plummet, no matter what.
We wouldn’t need a wall anymore.
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Minks
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@Erikaspirit16 I know exactly what you mean, Erika! I, too, have seen students like that. I believe that those kids might have been turned around, though, if someone outside their familes had become their cheerleader down in the early grades, preferably beginning during preschool days
I don’t know how many pre-school and grade school classrooms there are in the US, but thousands. We have adults who are “so lonely I don’t know what to do,” with no nearby grandchildren or maybe none at all. We have kids in single parent homes with no sense of extended family, just their immediate family, which may be just the child and one parent, and no grandparents nearby, if at all, and some who are reared in homes that are battle zones
I’d love to see a melding of those two age groups with interaction such that the “grandparent” would be a cheerleader & helper & font of information, so that both child & adult would grow and find love and joy in the relationship. If there were enough adult volunteers that each child had more than one grandarent, great! If one had to stop due to sickness, moving, or death, the loss would be less noticed by the child.
Some of these children may have loving, but frenzied parents at home, & some may be in constant fear or depression. A nurturing relationship at school is so helpful, but as hard as a teacher tries to be perfect for each of her/his students there is only so much of her/him that can be spread among them in a single day of teaching. “Grandparents” could save those fringe children!
If the hearts of children aren’t reached by 9—no later than 10—the child is going to have a tough row to hoe, or will become a “tough” himself, a tragedy in either case. Once a child is old enough to go to the homes of his friends, he’s less inclined to be impressed by adults unless the relationship previously has been established. Sad, but true.
I think that each US Catholic School should work on this to improve student achievement even more than our already high performance, as a model for the public achools. Both men and women could be of great service and find delight in their efforts.
Some grandparent programs are already in place in certain parts of the country. I pray that it will become widespread. Many potential misfits could be rewired in a grandparent pairing where trust, loyalty, and hope can become etched into those young hearts and minds. The misfits lack experiences that reinforce those positive foundations.
Although it may sound trite to some, we all do need to pray for these misfits each day, fervently. If prayer can win military battles and change the face of a nation, against all odds, it can help reverse this trend to retaliate indiscriminately for perceived injustices.
I don’t know how many pre-school and grade school classrooms there are in the US, but thousands. We have adults who are “so lonely I don’t know what to do,” with no nearby grandchildren or maybe none at all. We have kids in single parent homes with no sense of extended family, just their immediate family, which may be just the child and one parent, and no grandparents nearby, if at all, and some who are reared in homes that are battle zones
I’d love to see a melding of those two age groups with interaction such that the “grandparent” would be a cheerleader & helper & font of information, so that both child & adult would grow and find love and joy in the relationship. If there were enough adult volunteers that each child had more than one grandarent, great! If one had to stop due to sickness, moving, or death, the loss would be less noticed by the child.
Some of these children may have loving, but frenzied parents at home, & some may be in constant fear or depression. A nurturing relationship at school is so helpful, but as hard as a teacher tries to be perfect for each of her/his students there is only so much of her/him that can be spread among them in a single day of teaching. “Grandparents” could save those fringe children!
If the hearts of children aren’t reached by 9—no later than 10—the child is going to have a tough row to hoe, or will become a “tough” himself, a tragedy in either case. Once a child is old enough to go to the homes of his friends, he’s less inclined to be impressed by adults unless the relationship previously has been established. Sad, but true.
I think that each US Catholic School should work on this to improve student achievement even more than our already high performance, as a model for the public achools. Both men and women could be of great service and find delight in their efforts.
Some grandparent programs are already in place in certain parts of the country. I pray that it will become widespread. Many potential misfits could be rewired in a grandparent pairing where trust, loyalty, and hope can become etched into those young hearts and minds. The misfits lack experiences that reinforce those positive foundations.
Although it may sound trite to some, we all do need to pray for these misfits each day, fervently. If prayer can win military battles and change the face of a nation, against all odds, it can help reverse this trend to retaliate indiscriminately for perceived injustices.
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MiserereMeiDei
Guest
Gang murders make up the vast majority of mass shooting incidents in the US. Is the problem in the inner city that Joe Smith owns a rifle and a pistol? Does Joe Smith need to be treated like a criminal and have his property confiscated because other people don’t know how to get along in a civilized manner?
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Lea101
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That’s not the question I was asking
Illegal how? If the law restricts it, it’s legal no? How is it evil?
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