What Can We Say About The Virgin?

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Mary was quite literally the Ark of the New Covenant.

Jesus is the New Covenant. Mary held Jesus inside her body for 9 months. Therefore Mary was the Ark that held the New Covenant, hence the title. To call Jesus the Ark of the New Covenant would be to imply that He Himself was not the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and therefore not the Savior Son of God.

And considering God HImself crowned Mary as Queen of Heaven, I’m not going to argue with that title! The same goes for all the Virgin and Mother titles. They are hers because of God. God made Mary Immaculately Conceived. She didn’t do that herself. The Holy Spirit conceived in Mary without ending her virginity. And God’s messenger angel himself called her “Mary, full of grace”.

None of this implies that Mary is a god or above God because all of it is THROUGH God. God didn’t arbitrarily pick some lady out of a crowd to give birth to Jesus Christ. How could an imperfect mold make a perfect object? God made Mary without the stain of original sin so Jesus would not have the stain. And God said honor thy father and mother, so Jesus honored Mary, and if Jesus honored someone, shouldn’t we? And wouldn’t you want someone Jesus honors to interceed for you?

 

[NotWorthy]

Mary was quite literally the Ark of the New Covenant.

Jesus is the New Covenant. Mary held Jesus inside her body for 9 months. Therefore Mary was the Ark that held the New Covenant, hence the title. To call Jesus the Ark of the New Covenant would be to imply that He Himself was not the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and therefore not the Savior Son of God.

And considering God HImself crowned Mary as Queen of Heaven, I’m not going to argue with that title! The same goes for all the Virgin and Mother titles. They are hers because of God. God made Mary Immaculately Conceived. She didn’t do that herself. The Holy Spirit conceived in Mary without ending her virginity. And God’s messenger angel himself called her “Mary, full of grace”.

None of this implies that Mary is a god or above God because all of it is THROUGH God. God didn’t arbitrarily pick some lady out of a crowd to give birth to Jesus Christ. How could an imperfect mold make a perfect object? God made Mary without the stain of original sin so Jesus would not have the stain. And God said honor thy father and mother, so Jesus honored Mary, and if Jesus honored someone, shouldn’t we? And wouldn’t you want someone Jesus honors to interceed for you?

Maria, thank you for that. But I’d like the OP to address this. We can take his shotgun approach and never get anywhere. Or we can address just one of these issues at a time until someone realizes whether these titles are idolatry or veneration.

Observing4Grace, Did the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant take away from the Glory and Majesty of God?

If not, then why would you think the Ark of the New Covenant could possibly take away from the Glory and Majesty of God?

Mary is a testament to the Glory and Majesty of our Lord, just as I’d like to be a testament to Him!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

Bishop Sheen had a wonderful statement on this. I’m going to paraphrase, but I’d love it if someone can find the entire quote.

Mary is the moon to Jesus’ Sun. Any light that she shines on us, her children, is merely a reflection of His Glory. Without His light, there would be no light from Mary.

The good Bishop said it far more eloquently, but the point is, everything that makes Mary a blessed person, is only because of Jesus.

 

[Tomster]

Each of the Blessed Virgin’s titltes preserved in the Litany of Loreto tells us something (often a number of things) about Mary and her beauty, glories, doctrines and prerogatives. But, of them all, Foederis Arca (“Ark of the Covenant”) is one which makes for a particularly engaging object of study, because of its profound Scriptural implications.

One often hears, even from sound Catholic theologians, that “the Scriptures don’t say too much about Mary.” By this they mean to say that Our Lady’s ‘appearances’ in the Gospels are minimal. Relatively few verses there are devoted to her. By this reasoning, we could also say that the Scriptures don’t say much about the Sacrament of Confession.

Obviously, we understand that it is the quality of the truths preserved in the inspired texts that makes them so precious, not the quantity of verses used to express each one. If only one verse throughout the entire Gospels spoke of Our Lord’s Real Presence in the Blessed Scarament, we would need no others. The same thing applies to Our Lady.

And yet, it is also patently false to say that the Scriptures do not speak much of the Blessed Virgin. If these sacred texts are read correctly - i.e. under the guidance of the Church which alone posses the authority to interpret them - then the brilliant presence of Our Lady can be found warming the pages of the Bible from Genesis to the Apocalypse. We will find her in the Pentateuch, in the Prophets, in the Sapiential Books, announced in Eden, speaking to an Archangel, making her way to Bethlehem, standing on Calvary and, finally, wearing a crown in heaven. Far from remaining silent concerning the Mother of God, the books of the Old Testament, understood correctly, tell us much about her

“Through this tangled skein runs a single golden thread; between these soiled pages lies, now and again, a pressed flower that has lost neither its color nor its sweetness. That thread, that flower, is the mention, by type and analogue, of her whom all generations of Christendom have called blessed, the Virgin of Virgins, the Queen of Heaven, the Holy Mother of God.” - Msgr. Ronald Knox from “A Retreat for Priests”

 

[Observing4Grace]

Hello!

I can see that this is a real sticking point for you and one that upsets you deeply. May I suggest that you read this page and perhaps you can refine your questions after you read about what the Catholic teachings actually are in regard to Mary?

**I’m not distressed at all Kelly, in fact I’m more amused than annoyed and upset. Yes Kelly I’ve heard just every instance of proof that’s listed on this website. I’m taking a step farther to show that these evidences have holes in them. **

Then I will be more than happy to respond to each point you still have. And I must say, you have stated many things that just are not true and are common misunderstandings.

**Sigh, Like I kept saying in the beginning, you can explain away all the instances that these are not actions of worship but if anyone were to look at it from an outsider’s perspective, they would conclude that it would be. Because Mary is highly esteemed next to Jesus and practically all these claims are attributed to Mary as well. **

So, read the page I provided a link for (can’t quote more than two paragraphs on the CA forums) and then we can chat some more. If you really want to know the truth, you’ll read it.

God bless you,

Kelly

**I am interested in having evidence but it’s got it’s holes, Kelly, that’s why I brought this up. The proofs provided don’t hold water. Period.

Parker **

 

[Observing4Grace]

There isn’t a single passage that talks about Mary’s birth of anyone but Jesus. Amazing how many “Bible only” people insist on writing their own verses and treating them like Gospel.

**I doubt that you’ve read the New Testament for if you did, you’d know exactly what I’m talking about.

Parker **

 

[Observing4Grace]

Hello,
That is because Mary is the greatest of all the Saints. She is elevated above all the angels in Heaven.

So is Jesus, aren’t equating her next to Jesus or just about as close as you can get?

She only knows what God reveals to her, just as it is with all the Angels and Saints of Heaven.

We can all imagine Mary having the internet where the prayers are sent like email. (God doing the work here, if you get my drift) However this isn’t there.

Those in the hell of the damned have rejected eternally their salvation, so there is no use in preaching to them. Also, the very name of Mary causes them much pain, so you can just imagine how much they would dislike her presence.

**I don’t dislike the Virgin but I highly doubt that God’s allowed this much to her. **

I assume you are referring to the title Co-Redemptrix. She gets that title by participating in the redemption of man - by her fiat.

**I don’t recall Jesus giving her this title or better yet having her earning it by her fiat. Care to show some Bible verses? **

Yeah, if you consider nurturing and raising the Son of God insignificant. I cannot think of a bigger role to play in any child’s life than that of his/her mother and father.

Let’s put it this way, easily said yes it’s a difficult job raising the son of God but you’re missing my point. The New Testament does not revere Mary the same way the Catholic Church does. It doesn’t even attribute as much time in saying anything of extreme importance. (by that I mean such stressing of doctrines like the Bodily Assumption and her greatness above the angels) If the Bible were explicit in the concepts, I’d understand however this is not the case.

We know that after the Resurrection of Jesus that she lived in Saint John’s house and traveled with him to Ephesus until she ended her earthly pilgrimage there in Ephesus. She was then assumed body and soul into Heaven and crowned Queen of Heaven.

Let’s see, there is scriptural proof that she lived with St. John but for the rest of the circumstances (i.e. traveling to Ephesus and ending her life with the assumed body and soul into heaven and crowned queen of heaven) doesn’t have enough evidence to be merited on. So where’s the proof?

I am not certain what you mean by this? Are you implying that she didn’t influence His teachings? Well, I must have missed the part where He changed His stance in light of opinion polls.

**I didn’t she influenced that greatly because He’s God and she’s not in a higher authority. **

Why would she. Who is equal, let alone superior, to God?

**No one but elevating Mary’s status is turning her into one. **

No she didn’t. Mary is ever-virgin - a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. The mention of brothers and sisters of the Lord is due to the fact that Aramaic (the common language in Jesus’ time and place) did not have words for cousin or kin. The same word was used for brother, sister, cousin, kin, etc.

That’s enough bologna. Seriously. Where does the Bible say she swears to live the rest of her life as a Virgin? How about some evidence saying that those kids (adelphos) doesn’t mean brother literally?

This is called a procession. It is found in almost every form of religion. For example, in every form of Protestantism I have encountered, when a person dies everyone processes from the church or funeral home to the cemetary.

**That’s a different story, you’re carrying a person from one place to another. In this case when someone is dead, they need to be buried and a funeral taken place. The statue in the form of Mary is being taking around as if she was being worshipped. This is different. **

I have seen Protestants bow down in prayer in fields or before trees, but that doesn’t make them pantheists. This is just a normative posture for praying.

**Still that’s different. They’re not making claims that the fields or the trees can be present there are they? Just because you’re praying in the field doesn’t equal worship. **

This is called a Rosary. The meditations are on Scripture - on the life of Christ.

(To Be Continued)

 

[Observing4Grace]

**Yeah where does Christ command the Rosary to be used as a form of meditation? **

We have days dedicated to all the Saints, not just Mary.

**I know that also but it turns them into idols. **

How many Protestants carry a picture of a family member in their wallets, or have a large portrait of someone over their fireplace or bed.
**
I don’t know but my point is that if you take all the elements together of what I listed it becomes a form of worship even though the person is dead. Do you get the picture? **

And should we conclude that some Protestants worship nature or family members? How many Protestant men describe their spouse in terms of adoration and worship? So mere outward appearence isn’t absolute.

**Different story. **

Yes, thinking Catholics worship Mary is sheer nonsense.

**I don’t know if every member thinks promptly. **

There are different levels of veneration. The lowest is called dulia - this is the veneration given to Saints, relics, etc. The second is called hyperdulia - this is the veneration due to the Ever-Virgin Mary. The third and highest is called latria - this is worship and adoration due only to God. Thus Catholics do not give the worship due only to God to Mary.

**Look, I’m not a misinformed Protestant here. I’m well aware of these terms but the church needs to prove where does the Bible make exceptions on the merits of the first commandment, let alone the existences and different types of venerations. Do you get the idea I’m trying to tell you?

Parker**

 

[Observing4Grace]

Put it this way - we do a lot for Mary, give her a lot of titles, a lot of honour and so forth. I have no wish to deny that. It’s only fitting that we should give high esteem to the Mother of our Lord and Saviour.

**I’m glad you acknowledge my point. You’re the first see things thoroughly. However if you put this into a whole, it turns into worship regardless if they it’s not. **

What we do for her, however, absolutely pales in comparison to the titles, the honour, the Holy Days and Feast Days and Eucharistic Processions and Adorations we have in honour of Christ, and the fact that every Mass (our supreme prayer and act of worship) is directed at God and him alone, through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think it does, if that were the case no images would be used or these processions wouldn’t be overdone.

Do you know that in the Philippines each Easter people NAIL THEMSELVES TO CROSSES in honour of his Crucifixion? Who ever does anything remotely like this in regard to Mary??? Not half!

**Yes, I’m well aware of it. It’s the same thing what monks did to themselves kneel on rice and beat themselves. (just to name a few) Let’s look at this way if we keep punishing ourselves for our sins, we’re missing the point to Jesus’ life. Secondly to reenact these is totally ridiculous. It’s like they want to be Jesus. I understand fully if you’re trying to participate in a movie but it only needs to be done once, not reenacted over and over again to illustrate it.

Parker **

 

[Observing4Grace]

Hello brother.
And you surmise this pertains to the Virgin Mary exactly how? Simply by the name “Mary”?
Apply what? You’re making absolutely no sense!
Don’t keep me in suspence, what “sources” and what do “they”say?

**The Point to Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary was the illustrate the contradictions between what the Catholic Church teaches about the Virgin Mary and the Bible. This was my point.

These titles should be given to “Jesus”?

Instead of “Queen” in those lists change it to King to get the picture,

Parker **

 

[water]

Catholic loves saints and the saints love us. We all worship the Lord. Amen! (short answer)

 

[Mannyfit75]

So is Jesus, aren’t equating her next to Jesus or just about as close as you can get?

The only person who have been closest to Jesus is Mary. She is not equal to Jesus. She is a creature. She is a devote Christian. Throughout Scripture she remain obedient to God’s will. “Be it Done onto my According to your Word.”

I know that also but it turns them into idols.

Another Non-Catholic Protestant misconception. No they are not turned to idols. To understand Saints and Mary, one must understand the Communion of Saints. We, saints on earth, are in communion with the Saints in heaven, who are with God and his angels.

We do not ask saints the same adoration that we Catholics give to God alone.

Read Eph. 3:14-15, and Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24.

I don’t know but my point is that if you take all the elements together of what I listed it becomes a form of worship even though the person is dead. Do you get the picture?

The saints who died in Christ are not dead. We are Alive in Christ.

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

I don’t know if every member thinks promptly.

You lack Catholic theology and understanding. You insist on beliefs we do not practice.

Look, I’m not a misinformed Protestant here. I’m well aware of these terms but the church needs to prove where does the Bible make exceptions on the merits of the first commandment, let alone the existences and different types of venerations. Do you get the idea I’m trying to tell you?

You are still misinform because you do not understand the meaning of the Communion of Saints. Catholics believe we are One Body in Christ just as St. Paul said in his Epistles. When we ask for intercessory prayer, we ask them to pray for us. Just as I ask my fellow Catholic or Christian to pray for me.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

I can go on to refute your false misconception about Mary and the saints. If you are want to discuss this further.

 

[Observing4Grace]

Mary was quite literally the Ark of the New Covenant.

Jesus is the New Covenant. Mary held Jesus inside her body for 9 months. Therefore Mary was the Ark that held the New Covenant, hence the title.

**
This is a Non Sequitor, in other words it doesn’t follow. **

To call Jesus the Ark of the New Covenant would be to imply that He Himself was not the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and therefore not the Savior Son of God.

**How so? **

And considering God HImself crowned Mary as Queen of Heaven, I’m not going to argue with that title!

I would given that it’s not founded upon his word. You wouldn’t argue with it because the Church said so!

The same goes for all the Virgin and Mother titles. They are hers because of God. God made Mary Immaculately Conceived. She didn’t do that herself. The Holy Spirit conceived in Mary without ending her virginity. And God’s messenger angel himself called her “Mary, full of grace”.

Prove that Mary is conceived without sin and how all those titles attain to her. Hence title should be called "Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary"

None of this implies that Mary is a god or above God because all of it is THROUGH God. God didn’t arbitrarily pick some lady out of a crowd to give birth to Jesus Christ.

No he didn’t. In fact, there was bloodline running.

How could an imperfect mold make a perfect object? God made Mary without the stain of original sin so Jesus would not have the stain.

**He didn’t have to because he’s above sin itself. **

And God said honor thy father and mother, so Jesus honored Mary, and if Jesus honored someone, shouldn’t we?

**Honor doesn’t mean erect statues, claim she can hear prayer and summon a list of titles to her name. **

And wouldn’t you want someone Jesus honors to interceed for you?

**I’d rather have Jesus do the job himself.

Parker
:tiphat: **

 

[water]

I’d rather have Jesus do the job himself.

Can I say the word “Dead wrong”. Jesus himself didn’t even do it all Himself! That’s why He had the disciples.

We are doing it together with Him building the Kingdom of God. He expects the same thing from you.

What are you here for? is this your job or you are doing His Job?

Why don’t you leave the job to Jesus and let Him talk to us personally?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Observing4Grace:

This is a Non Sequitor, in other words it doesn’t follow.

Are you familiar with the typography between the Old Testament and the New Testament? If you don’t, it means that within the OT the NT is hidden. For example, Paul often refer to Jesus as the New Adam. Just as Adam brought sin into the world, Jesus brought the end of sin and death, and granting us eternal life.

The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament within it contains the Tablets of the Ten Commandments of God or the Word of God. Mary is the type of Ark because during the first 9 months of Jesus here on earth, she was a living Ark because she contain within her the Mana, Bread of Life, Jesus, the Lamb of God.

Finally, just before the vision of the New Eve in Revelations 12, we read “and the temple of God saw opened in heaven, and there was seen the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail” (11:19). Now remember; the Bible was not written in chapter and verse; that was added in the twelfth century A.D… When St. John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; he wrote about one right after another as a continuous thought. The appearance of the Ark here immediately precedes the appearance of the Woman, the Mother of the Christ Child; and we saw above that the Woman is Mary. This also indicates a relationship between the Ark and Our Lady.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Grace if you want to look up the comparison between Mary and the Ark read this;

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

 

[Mannyfit75]

I would given that it’s not founded upon his word. You wouldn’t argue with it because the Church said so!

No because that is why the Christian Church held since the time of the Apostles.

Consider this. In the Old Testament during the reign of King Solomon, Jewish Kings have their mothers as their queens.

Jesus, we both know inherited the Davidic Kingdom. Since he inherited the Kingdom, he continue that tradition by making Mary the Queen. In Revelation 12, the woman clothed with the sun is Mary. This one is crown with twelve stars on her head. A crown is worn by royality. Mary earn her queenship because Jesus is the King. Jesus is a Jewish King.

Prove that Mary is conceived without sin and how all those titles attain to her. Hence title should be called “Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary”

Like the Ark is pure so too that God preserved Mary, the Mother of the Lord to be pure.

When we talk about this we normally start at Luke 1:28, where the angel Gabriel says to Mary “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”. The Greek word that means “full of grace” is kecharitomene, which is a special kind of word, a perfect passive participle, which indicates that the fullness of grace is perfect and complete and enduring. But when we say Mary is “full of grace”, we’re not saying it’s her grace that she owns herself or anything, we’re saying she’s perfectly full of the grace which she has received from God.

The Ark of the Covenant stuff is important here too. God’s presence makes things holy, like the ground that Moses was standing on when he talked to God in the burning bush. God used to overshadow or cover the ark and occupy the mercy seat on top of it, so everything about the ark had to be made carefully and perfectly, and because it was the site of the presence of God, the ark was so holy that almost no-one could touch it and live. Mary was also overshadowed by God and she became the pure tabernacle of God the Son.

Hebrews chapter 12 tells us to strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Mary did more than just see the Lord, she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and she carried God the Son in her womb. God is perfectly holy, and the closer we get to him, the more we must be holy. And Mary got closer than anyone.

We believe that Mary needed a saviour, just like we do. The classic picture of this is if you think about a big pit of quicksand. If you were drowning in the quicksand and someone threw you a rope and pulled you out, you could say that they saved you, right? But if you were just about to step into the quicksand and someone stopped you, they would also have saved you. In both cases you are saved, but in the second one you are saved without getting dirty. This is what happened with Mary.

 

[LilyM]

Observing4Grace:

LilyM:

Put it this way - we do a lot for Mary, give her a lot of titles, a lot of honour and so forth. I have no wish to deny that. It’s only fitting that we should give high esteem to the Mother of our Lord and Saviour.

I’m glad you acknowledge my point. You’re the first see things thoroughly. However if you put this into a whole, it turns into worship regardless if they it’s not.

You’re trying to say that we, or anyone, can somehow accidentally worship Mary or anyone else, even if we claim we’re not worshipping, and genuinely believe we don’t worship? Worship is not one of those things that you can do by accident or through negligence. You have to have the intention to worship. Do you have any evidence that it’s possible to accidentally worship?

Observing4Grace:

LilyM:

What we do for her, however, absolutely pales in comparison to the titles, the honour, the Holy Days and Feast Days and Eucharistic Processions and Adorations we have in honour of Christ, and the fact that every Mass (our supreme prayer and act of worship) is directed at God and him alone, through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think it does, if that were the case no images would be used or these processions wouldn’t be overdone.

Firstly - every parade, secular and religious, uses images of different kinds. When Americans salute their flag and pledge allegiance to it on 4th of July does that mean they’re worshipping it? When Communist countries used to have their parades with huge pictures of Stalin or Mao or whoever did that mean they were worshipping their leaders?

When God commanded cherubs in the temple or the snake on its pole in the desert who was REALLY being honoured by these? Certainly not the cherubs themselves in place of God, or the snake itself in place of the God who ordered the image made.

And ‘overdone’? In whose opinion ‘overdone’?? That’s a judgement of your own based on nothing. God himself commanded the Israelites to make images of angels and cherubs (and put them ON THE ARK of his presence and all over His temple in Jerusalem no less!). Jesus and Mary are real people, we are permitted to honour them. The mere use of images doesn’t automatically translate it into worship.

Observing4Grace:

LilyM:

Do you know that in the Philippines each Easter people NAIL THEMSELVES TO CROSSES in honour of his Crucifixion? Who ever does anything remotely like this in regard to Mary??? Not half!

Yes, I’m well aware of it. It’s the same thing what monks did to themselves kneel on rice and beat themselves.

Parker

My point is not about whether the mock crucifixions are a good thing or not, my point simply is that you’re making assumptions about the level of honour we give to Mary and the saints as opposed to Christ, based on lack of knowledge and understanding and some cultural biases as well. In everything we do, even the honour we give to Mary and the saints, Christ is front and centre as he should be.

You seem to be putting forward your own ideas of what is appropriate or ‘overdone’ in terms of worship and veneration based on … your opinion. Like saying you don’t like the colour orange. Whoopdee. Pardon me for being fine with the colour orange then.

 

[slyboots]

Why are you using the nursery rhyme “Mary, Mary, quite contrary…”
This rhyme is supposed to be about Mary Queen of Scots. The ‘silver bells’ are the bells rung at mass. The ‘cockle shells’ image is for the badge of St James of Compostela, worn by pilgrims. The ‘pretty maids’ alludes to the four Marys who stayed with Mary Stuart until her death.

Our Lady, the Mother of God, was never contrary. Ever gentle and loving of her divine son she said yes to God and He blessed her. And as she said, “All generations shall call me blessed…” so we do as well.

If non-Catholics choose to believe that because we love her above all other saints, we equate her with Christ, then they choose to be wrong. If they choose to believe she was not pure throughout her life, they underestimate our God who chose her to be His mother.

She is His mother. He chose her. She is our mother. He gave her to us. And we Catholics accepted His gift.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Honor doesn’t mean erect statues, claim she can hear prayer and summon a list of titles to her name.

Statues are not the object of worship. They provide as instruments for a faithful to reflect the Christian life of the saint. Since saints earn their salvation through by the virtue of their faith and deed by living a Christian life.

It is like having photos of your family in your house. Saints can hear they are not dead. The Bible does not even say saints who died in Christ are not dead.

Yes, in a physical sense, they are dead but their spirit is alive. Remember, John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not parish but have eternal life.”

A saint who is died and it this saint died in Christ, he has gain eternal life.

Revelations clearly show that saints can hear our prayers.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.