What Catholic teachings do I object to?

[grannymh]

I (almost) certainly agree! But the paradox is that if you look only at Scripture, it doesn’t spell out in concrete terms that “All doctrines are grounded in Scripture.”

One of the reasons that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Jesus Christ is that all its doctrines are grounded in Scripture. Recall that Jesus often quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures. The teachings of Jesus are found in the Gospels. For example, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Eucharist is grounded in Scripture, Chapter 6 of the Gospel of John as a start.

 

[grannymh]

Where I disagree is that Lutherans would say “All doctrines should be corrected by Scripture” - we acknowledge Tradition, teaching Authority and other sources. We only demand that they are compatible with scripture.

The Catholic Church also says that all [possible] doctrines should be corrected
by Scripture – But this is said before a proposed doctrine is actually declared.

We are so caught up by instant information in our century, that we ignore the fact that information regarding a Catholic doctrine was more on the order of years and sometimes centuries. Many doctrines were declared when there was internal debate over the explicit meanings of Divine 'Revelation. This meant that both sides had to be investigated in the light of Scripture, Tradition, previous doctrines, and local teachings. This also meant that a new doctrine had to be absolutely “compatible” with Scripture.

As a high school student, I loved the Reformation period because our teacher followed each of the “reformers” as they spread out geographically. As a granny, the love remains, but my memory is lost. Back then, I could understand the battles over doctrine, within and outside the Catholic Church. Today, as I see citations from the Council of Trent, my thought is that these doctrines had to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

As we learn the terminology and semantics of other Christian Faiths, we would probably find that our intentions are similar as we all seek eternal love with our Creator. Even though our intentions are similar, when it comes to doctrines, especially those involving the Sacraments, we find that our decisions regarding Scripture based doctrines are different.

 

[PRmerger]

All of our Doctrines, together with the Canon of the Scriptures, arises from and is grounded in the Holy Tradition.

Indeed. Our doctrines do not come from a Book, no matter how holy.

As we Catholics proclaim, “We are not a People of the Book. We are a People of the Word. The Word of God.”

The Bible confirms that which our doctrines already proclaimed for 4 centuries.

As my friend guanophore is wont to say, “The Catholic faith was whole and entire before a single word of the NT was ever put to writ.”

 

[PRmerger]

As I understand it, my Baptist friend views that it was the Holy Spirit, not the church, that got the canon right.

Well, that is a little bit like saying, in answer to the question, “Where do babies come from?”
[SIGN1]Babies come from God, not from their parents.[/SIGN1]

Catholics respond, “Yes, they come from both. God used the Church/parents to produce the Bible/babies.”

 

[PRmerger]

Oh, but the disappointment to find out there’s no food served at church on feast days:crying:
That’s just cruel and misleading.

If I never have to attend another church pot-luck that serves 3-bean salad I’ll be in hog heaven!

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you for replying to post 206

Clarification – CCC 20-21 does not refer to footnotes.

My bad.

But I think the sentiment expressed in the Catechism can indeed be extrapolated to footnotes, as well.

By the way, where can I find the written texts of “Sacred Tradition”? Or would it be easier to provide a list of the items in “Sacred Tradition”?.

There can be no “list” of Sacred Tradition, because “Sacred Tradition is the living and growing truth of Christ contained, not only in Scripture, but in the common teaching, common life, and common worship of the Church…It simply acted as a lens and refocused the light of Scripture so that something which had been hidden there was now visible. For, despite appearances, the dogmatic definitions of the Church do not just pop up with absolutely no relation to Scripture. Rather, they assemble the materially sufficient revelation of Scripture using the mortar of Sacred Tradition. And that Tradition is not separate, secret and parallel to Scripture,** but the common teaching, life, and worship of the Church.**…The biblical Council, like the modern Catholic Church, places Scripture in the context of Tradition and magisterial, apostolic authority…The Church does not sit down and derive the dogma from the tortured reading of a few isolated texts of Scripture. Rather, it places the Scripture in the context of the Tradition handed down by the apostles and the interpretive office of the bishops they appointed.”—Mark Shea

 

[ltwin]

There is a caveat here. He is saying that it should be grounded according to his own expectations and perceptions. If HE does not “see” it there, then according to him it is not grounded.

If Itwin does not read Jesus saying to Peter “feed and care for my flock” as the Petrine gifts now belonging to the Successor of Peter in Rome, then from his perspective, the Papacy is not “grounded in Scripture”.

No, that isn’t it at all. I never said that I or anyone else had a right to read the Bible anyway they wanted to. I look to my church and those whom God has placed me among and has set over me, as well as reading the works of theologians at times to help me to understand the Scriptures. I also look beyond my immediate Pentecostal tradition at times and examine the teachings of the larger body of Christ to see if those traditions can provide a different perspective on the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

No, that isn’t it at all. I never said that I or anyone else had a right to read the Bible anyway they wanted to. I look to my church and those whom God has placed me among and has set over me, as well as reading the works of theologians at times to help me to understand the Scriptures. I also look beyond my immediate Pentecostal tradition at times and examine the teachings of the larger body of Christ to see if those traditions can provide a different perspective on the Bible.

So when you read the Bible, pray about its meaning, discern that it means [A], and another Christian also prayerfully reads the Bible and comes to the conclusion that it means [not A], what is the solution?

Clearly, God’s Word cannot be proclaiming both [A] and [not A] at the same time.

 

[grannymh]

No, that isn’t it at all. I never said that I or anyone else had a right to read the Bible anyway they wanted to. I look to my church and those whom God has placed me among and has set over me, as well as reading the works of theologians at times to help me to understand the Scriptures. I also look beyond my immediate Pentecostal tradition at times and examine the teachings of the larger body of Christ to see if those traditions can provide a different perspective on the Bible.

I know you never said that.

 

[stewstew03]

No, that isn’t it at all. I never said that I or anyone else had a right to read the Bible anyway they wanted to. I look to my church and those whom God has placed me among and has set over me, as well as reading the works of theologians at times to help me to understand the Scriptures. I also look beyond my immediate Pentecostal tradition at times and examine the teachings of the larger body of Christ to see if those traditions can provide a different perspective on the Bible.

How do you discern truth?

 

[ltwin]

So when you read the Bible, pray about its meaning, discern that it means [A], and another Christian also prayerfully reads the Bible and comes to the conclusion that it means [not A], what is the solution?

Clearly, God’s Word cannot be proclaiming both [A] and [not A] at the same time.

I guess that would depend on what was at stake. If someone reads the Bible and comes away thinking that they are Jesus Christ reincarnated, then that is not something that can be tolerated.

But lets say one person reads the Bible and believes that women should not wear pants, while another person believes that women can wear pants. Well, that’s not something you fight and split over. Let those women who feel at liberty wear pants, and let those who do not abstain from wearing pants.

 

[ltwin]

How do you discern truth?

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. So, to discern truth I look to him. I draw on everything that is available to me, which includes all that I mentioned above, to understand what he has taught as recorded in Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

I guess that would depend on what was at stake. If someone reads the Bible and comes away thinking that they are Jesus Christ reincarnated, then that is not something that can be tolerated.

But lets say one person reads the Bible and believes that women should not wear pants, while another person believes that women can wear pants. Well, that’s not something you fight and split over. Let those women who feel at liberty wear pants, and let those who do not abstain from wearing pants.

Where does the Bible tell us what’s an “ok to disagree” point and what’s an “you cannot disagree here” point?

 

[grannymh]

So when you read the Bible, pray about its meaning, discern that it means [A], and another Christian also prayerfully reads the Bible and comes to the conclusion that it means [not A], what is the solution?

Clearly, God’s Word cannot be proclaiming both [A] and [not A] at the same time.

When people read the Bible as a private individual, it is logically obvious that more than one meaning will touch a soul. This is because logically people can see God’s love in many ways. God is not limited to one inspiration per word.

And yes, the written words in Scripture can produce different responses. For example, logically there could be many responses to Jesus saying that He is the Good Shepherd. We are not clones of each other. Thank goodness.

The Catholic Church, under the authority of the Holy Spirit, discerns Divine Revelation which is what I think you mean by God’s word. The Church protocol for proclaiming a doctrine is extremely different from an individual praying and meditating on a particular passage.

Thus, what you are presenting as being “clearly” only pertains to doctrines and not to private prayer.

 

[grannymh]

Where does the Bible tell us what’s an “ok to disagree” point and what’s an “you cannot disagree here” point?

Most people, with common sense, know the difference between the Sermon on the Mount and local customs.

 

[PRmerger]

When people read the Bible as a private individual, it is logically obvious that more than one meaning will touch a soul. This is because logically people can see God’s love in many ways. God is not limited to one inspiration per word.

Indeed.

And yes, the written words in Scripture can produce different responses. For example, logically there could be many responses to Jesus saying that He is the Good Shepherd. We are not clones of each other. Thank goodness.

True, this.

The Catholic Church, under the authority of the Holy Spirit, discerns Divine Revelation which is what I think you mean by God’s word. The Church protocol for proclaiming a doctrine is extremely different from an individual praying and meditating on a particular passage.

Right.

Although what I mean by God’s Word is Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God, which is why Catholics proclaim we are People of the Word, not People of the Book.

Thus, what you are presenting as being “clearly” only pertains to doctrines and not to private prayer.

:yup:

 

[PRmerger]

Most people, with common sense, know the difference between the Sermon on the Mount and local customs.

What about the Bible verses that are not-so-clear?

 

[grannymh]

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. So, to discern truth I look to him. I draw on everything that is available to me, which includes all that I mentioned above, to understand what he has taught as recorded in Scripture.

Basically, that is what we all do – if we are honest with ourselves. The next step is to search out the Church which has retained Christ’s teachings, especially the ones in Chapter six, Gospel of John. At least that is the key teaching for me.

 

[PRmerger]

Basically, that is what we all do – if we are honest with ourselves. **The next step is to search out the Church which has retained Christ’s teachings, **especially the ones in Chapter six, Gospel of John. At least that is the key teaching for me.

 

[ltwin]

What about the Bible verses that are not-so-clear?

Pray, pray, fast and pray, pray, pray, and then if that doesn’t bring clarity then you pray that the person who disagrees with you really gets saved .

(That was a joke by the way!)