What Catholic teachings do I object to?

[PRmerger]

Basically, that is what we all do – if we are honest with ourselves. The next step is to search out the Church which has retained Christ’s teachings, especially the ones in Chapter six, Gospel of John. At least that is the key teaching for me.

Regarding retention of Christ’s teachings, I humbly assert that if anyone is in a church that does not have a teaching that she wishes would disappear, then she is in a church created in her own image and likeness.

For would not Christ’s Church retain his teachings? And would it not be reasonable to assume that what Christ wills will not always be in conformity to our own wishes?

That is, if you have “church shopped” and found a church that conveniently believes in the very same things that you find palatable and likeable, then I humbly submit that you have created a church that conforms to your own views.

And should we not be conforming our views to Christ’s?

 

[PRmerger]

Pray, pray, fast and pray, pray, pray, and then if that doesn’t bring clarity then you pray that the person who disagrees with you really gets saved .

But, seriously, what then? Christian A believes, after praying on his knees, that the Scriptures declare [A], and Christian B believes [not A] just as prayerfully and strongly.

What is your solution?

(Incidentally, regarding getting “saved”. No one is saved until he dies. Right? Isn’t that really what we all mean by being “saved”–being united with God before the Eternal Throne of heaven?)

 

[ltwin]

But, seriously, what then? Christian A believes, after praying on his knees, that the Scriptures declare [A], and Christian B believes [not A] just as prayerfully and strongly.

What is your solution?

Honestly, I don’t have a solution. If there was a solution then we wouldn’t be having this debate right now.

Pentecostals learned this first hand when they tried to keep their movement free from all doctrinal statements. It didn’t work. In 1914, some dude thought he had a revelation about the “Name of Jesus,” and it led to Jesus Name baptism and eventually Oneness Pentecostalism. The Oneness Pentecostals based their claims on Scripture. The orthodox Pentecostals were forced to rely on the doctrine of the church as they had received it and treat the Oneness as heretics.

(Incidentally, regarding getting “saved”. No one is saved until he dies. Right? Isn’t that really what we all mean by being “saved”–being united with God before the Eternal Throne of heaven?)

Yes. Just because someone says they’ve been born again doesn’t mean they really have. Even for those who have truly placed their faith in Christ, back sliding is always a possibility. Which is why staying humble before and consecrated to God is so important.

That being said, “saved” is used as shorthand for the Christian experience. Even though a person’s current spiritual state is no indication whether they will continue in faith, those who place their trust in Christ are in a very real sense “saved.”

 

[grannymh]

Although what I mean by God’s Word is Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God, which is why Catholics proclaim we are People of the Word, not People of the Book.

First of all, People of the Book refers to sola scriptura and the People of the Word refers to the Catholic Church where Jesus, as the Word of God, is truly present in the Eucharist. Granted that various persons do interpret that saying differently.

I am sure you would find CCC 65 very interesting since it refers to “Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect, and unsurpassable Word.”

This is followed by a paragraph which begins “In giving us His Son, His only Word…” and is in smaller print. The use of “small print” in certain passages indicates observations of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations.

Because the Gospels are devoted to the Word of God is why Catholic doctrines regarding Jesus Christ come from Scripture.

Luke 1: 14. And the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us, and we saw His glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth."

 

[grannymh]

Honestly, I don’t have a solution. If there was a solution then we wouldn’t be having this debate right now.

This sounds similar to an earlier question which I answered in post 237.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10187474&postcount=237

 

[grannymh]

Regarding retention of Christ’s teachings, I humbly assert that if anyone is in a church that does not have a teaching that she wishes would disappear, then she is in a church created in her own image and likeness.

I do not believe that applies to all Catholics. But I know different Catholics than you do.

 

[PRmerger]

Honestly, I don’t have a solution. If there was a solution then we wouldn’t be having this debate right now.

Well, there is a solution.

What is it?

Wait for it…

wait for it…

When there’s a dispute as to the meaning of Scripture the solution is to defer to the authority of…

the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. Just because someone says they’ve been born again doesn’t mean they really have. Even for those who have truly placed their faith in Christ, back sliding is always a possibility. Which is why staying humble before and consecrated to God is so important.

That being said, “saved” is used as shorthand for the Christian experience. Even though a person’s current spiritual state is no indication whether they will continue in faith, those who place their trust in Christ are in a very real sense “saved.”

 

[ltwin]

Well, there is a solution.

What is it?

Wait for it…

wait for it…

When there’s a dispute as to the meaning of Scripture the solution is to defer to the authority of…

the Catholic Church.

That solution only works if the Catholic Church actually has the authority that it claims.

 

[Bella92]

I do not believe that applies to all Catholics. But I know different Catholics than you do.

My mother, a very devout practicing Catholic, has no problem with any of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Most of my family don’t. Unfortunately for them, I do!

 

[grannymh]

Well, there is a solution.

What is it?

Wait for it…

wait for it…

When there’s a dispute as to the meaning of Scripture the solution is to defer to the authority of…

the Catholic Church.

Please refer to post 237.

 

[joe370]

I believe the Holy Spirit still guides the church. I’m not exactly sure how this relates to the pope though?

Hey ltwin. Which church though? There is more than one church. For example, in terms of doctrinal truth, does God guide the Lutheran church, Pentecostal church, Baptist church, Methodist church, evangelical churches and the Catholic church? Of course I do believe that God guides all Christians in terms of faith, but not doctrinal truth, obviously.

 

[PRmerger]

First of all, People of the Book refers to sola scriptura and the People of the Word refers to the Catholic Church where Jesus, as the Word of God, is truly present in the Eucharist. Granted that various persons do interpret that saying differently.

Actually, the People of the Book reference comes from the Koran. It is the Islamic reference to Jews and Christians.

 

[jmcrae]

That solution only works if the Catholic Church actually has the authority that it claims.

Jesus gave to Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Peter passed them to his successors, on down to Pope Benedict XVI.

Those who split from the Church in the 1500s did not do so with the blessing of those who had the authority to bless them - they did so outside of Church authority, meaning that it was outside of Christ’s authority - they had no authority to start up their own churches, which means that everything that came out of those churches, including the Pentecostal movement, remains outside of Christ.

 

[grannymh]

So when you read the Bible, pray about its meaning, discern that it means [A], and another Christian also prayerfully reads the Bible and comes to the conclusion that it means [not A], what is the solution?

Clearly, God’s Word cannot be proclaiming both [A] and [not A] at the same time.

When people read the Bible as a private individual, it is logically obvious that more than one meaning will touch a soul. This is because logically people can see God’s love in many ways. God is not limited to one inspiration per word.

And yes, the written words in Scripture can produce different responses. For example, logically there could be many responses to Jesus saying that He is the Good Shepherd. We are not clones of each other. Thank goodness.

The Catholic Church, under the authority of the Holy Spirit, discerns Divine Revelation. The Church protocol for proclaiming a doctrine is extremely different from an individual praying and meditating on a particular passage.

Thus, what you are presenting as being “clearly” only pertains to doctrines and not to private prayer.

 

[stewstew03]

That solution only works if the Catholic Church actually has the authority that it claims.

How do you know She doesn’t have such authority?

 

[october_baby]

See, this is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. Look, you have nothing in your arsenal that’s going to convince me of what your selling. One true church? Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt, the soundtrack, the tour jacket, the limited edition blu-ray, the all access pass, and pics and autographs of all the band members. I’m gonna be blunt. There will be no unification of any of the Christian Churches until Jesus comes and sets everything straight. Yes, it’s something to pray for. Yes, it’s something to hope for. But, it will only happen when Jesus makes it happen. Protestants and Catholics are too far apart on differences that neither side will give on. Now, I remember why I took a six month leave of absense from this bored. I think it’s time to leave again. It’s fun to learn, but, I get tired of people trying to tell me how wrong I am, telling me that the man who had the stones to stand up for himself and the truth was a crazed heretic, that my church isn’t a church, and other ad nauseum garbage.

well, you are on a catholic site. and besides YOU should see how catholics are treated in a
in some of the boards where the protestants outnumber the catholics… other than that I agree with you, protestant-catholic cooperation on a layperson level is fantasy. too many protestants are too close minded, living in a protestant country where religious relativism
is mainstream.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually, the People of the Book reference comes from the Koran. It is the Islamic reference to Jews and Christians.

And I want to add that our Catechism rejects this nomenclature of being a people, or religion, of the book.

Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living.” If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” CCC108

 

[PRmerger]

When people read the Bible as a private individual, it is logically obvious that more than one meaning will touch a soul. This is because logically people can see God’s love in many ways. God is not limited to one inspiration per word.

And yes, the written words in Scripture can produce different responses. For example, logically there could be many responses to Jesus saying that He is the Good Shepherd. We are not clones of each other. Thank goodness.

The Catholic Church, under the authority of the Holy Spirit, discerns Divine Revelation. The Church protocol for proclaiming a doctrine is extremely different from an individual praying and meditating on a particular passage.

Thus, what you are presenting as being “clearly” only pertains to doctrines and not to private prayer.

Everything you say is true, granny!

It’s a non-sequitur, but true nonetheless.

 

[Truthstalker]

See, this is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. Look, you have nothing in your arsenal that’s going to convince me of what your selling. One true church? Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt, the soundtrack, the tour jacket, the limited edition blu-ray, the all access pass, and pics and autographs of all the band members. I’m gonna be blunt. There will be no unification of any of the Christian Churches until Jesus comes and sets everything straight. Yes, it’s something to pray for. Yes, it’s something to hope for. But, it will only happen when Jesus makes it happen. Protestants and Catholics are too far apart on differences that neither side will give on. Now, I remember why I took a six month leave of absense from this bored. I think it’s time to leave again. It’s fun to learn, but, I get tired of people trying to tell me how wrong I am, telling me that the man who had the stones to stand up for himself and the truth was a crazed heretic, that my church isn’t a church, and other ad nauseum garbage.

This IS “Catholic Apologetics Forum”. They have this idea that they are Catholic, and they want to do Apologetics, which means they want to convince people of the truth of Catholicism, and it is THEIR forum. There are some really wonderful people here and there are some bottom-feeders. It can be really rough on me emotionally and I have to take breaks at times.

I can expect to be told how wrong I am. I can expect to hear Luther or Calvin or others unfairly (and also accurately) maligned. I can expect my church to be called not a church, because that is where they are at. I can expect all kinds of garbage, but also some really good stuff. I can expect to be challenged. It is a good reason to come here.

It is ok to take a break. It is fun to stomp out dramatically. It is no fun to get banned.

Take a break. See you around the galaxy.