What Catholicism seems to be missing

[Amandil]

“Baptism… now saves you…”(1 Peter 3:21)

" he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."(John 6:54).

 

[CreekCrawler]

Better preaching? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. If we had it then we wouldn’t have people actually believing that as long as they were baptized and attend Mass they are saved.
I don’t say this to be sarcastic, but out of true concern.

 

[Amandil]

Yes, seriously. If we had it then we wouldn’t have people actually believing that as long as they were baptized and attend Mass they are saved.
I don’t say this to be sarcastic, but out of true concern.

Your tone belies your words.

Secondly, the Scriptures don’t lie.

It seems that you are judging people in the pews because they don’t necessarily share your, albeit commendable, zeal for God.

That’s not the fault of the homilist, nor them, but rather your apparent false perceptions.

I think that it’d be more prudent to worry about yourself instead of worrying overmuch about someone else’s spiritual state.

If people are baptized and attending Mass and receiving the Eucharist according to the dictates of the Church, they are saved by virtue of Christ’s covenant.

You cannot possibly know what their personal relationship with Christ truly is by their silence. Many people in the Church develop a contemplative relationship with Christ of silent prayer and adoration.

Maybe that’s not for you, but don’t assume things about people in the pews merely based on your own observations.

 

[CreekCrawler]

Amandil:
“Your tone belies your words.”
There is no tone… that’s the problem with texting/forums.

“I think that it’d be more prudent to worry about yourself instead of worrying overmuch about someone else’s spiritual state.”
If this was true Jesus would not have given us the great commission.

“If people are baptized and attending Mass and receiving the Eucharist according to the dictates of the Church, they are saved by virtue of Christ’s covenant.”
Many ppl are baptized, and attend Mass and even receive the Eucharist and know NOTHING of following Christ. And they will reap God’s wrath… 1 Corinthians 11:27-32

The Church simply does not teach that if one is baptized and goes to Mass they are saved. Why do you make that assumption ? Where have you heard this ?

 

[johnnyc176]

As Catholics we follow Jesus as well as love him. Jesus and His Church, the Catholic Church are One and the Same. You can’t have any more of a personal relationship with Jesus than in the Eucharist. It is the source and summit of our Faith. To say that Catholics have not heard the Gospel is silly as a part of the Mass is the liturgy of the Word. Most that leave the One True Church imo do so because they do not want to follow what they consider a teaching of the Church (and only the Church) and then claim that they left because they did not know Jesus. Meanwhile what they fail to realize or willfully ignore is that the teachings of the Catholic Church are the teachings of Jesus.

 

[CreekCrawler]

To say that Catholics have not heard the Gospel is silly as a part of the Mass is the liturgy of the Word.

To your first point, if you leave the lost to learn of the gospel through the liturgy of the Word, then they will never learn it. Or, if they did they would have to come to each Mass and take notes over the course of a year… then piece it together. Not exactly how the Apostles evangelized.
As others have said, the Liturgy is to feed Christians, not the lost. So my question is WHEN DO WE FEED THE LOST ? And why do we assume there is none lost in the pews next to us ?

Secondly, if Pope Francis said that I have to disagree. Many Protestants absolutely love and follow Christ.

 

[Goya]

…
To the second point… ST. FRANCIS NEVER SAID THAT. I absolutely hate that “quote”, as every time I bring up evangelization to a Catholic this is ALWAYS what they say. Imagine the Apostles believing this nonsense… Christianity wouldn’t have made it out of the first 10 years.

Exactly !

I’ve read that account in at least 2 different biographical accounts of St. Francis.

Please provide your authority for disputing this account; I’d like to know what your ‘authority’ is for disputing it.

As for the substantive wisdom it conveys: not everyone is St. Paul, and not all evangelizations is effected by verbal preaching.

Even Christ himself, was not the most verbose. Brilliant? Definitely. Wise? Beyond dispute. But verbose? nah. Pretty reserved with his words, according to the Gospel accounts. Even the Sermon on the Mount, indicates a reserved demeanor, and conservative use of words.

But mostly, it is very clear that Chrit’s greatest teaching came not through his mouth, but through his living. His actions.

IOW, just as St. Francis (did in fact) put it–sometimes Christ had to use words–to explain what he was DOING.

As for the Mass/Homily–perhaps to your protestant upbringing, dignified, reserved, and humble = boring, unpassionate, and uninspired. To the Catholic mind, noisy, loud, boisterous and preachy, is un-humble vanity, which could easily be confused with attention seeking histrionics.

…and that is a much greater turn off to the Catholic mind, than ;dryness’ or ‘boredom’.

Maybe the priests you’ve had this experience with, are erring on the side of caution, so as not to draw attention to themselves…and away from the altar.

 

[CreekCrawler]

Seriously, to everyone who has replied along the lines of the Mass being for the Christians to worship Christ and be fed… When do we fulfill the great commission ? Who is preaching the gospel to the lost ?

I mean, you all have some good points. And I see now that perhaps the Catholic assumes most people attending Mass are already members of the Church. Okay, great. Now what ?

 

[CreekCrawler]

I’ve read that account in at least 2 different biographical accounts of St. Francis.

Please provide your authority for disputing this account; I’d like to know what your ‘authority’ is for disputing it.

As for the substantive wisdom it conveys: not everyone is St. Paul, and not all evangelizations is effected by verbal preaching.

Even Christ himself, was not the most verbose. Brilliant? Definitely. Wise? Beyond dispute. But verbose? nah. Pretty reserved with his words, according to the Gospel accounts. Even the Sermon on the Mount, indicates a reserved demeanor, and conservative use of words.

But mostly, it is very clear that Chrit’s greatest teaching came not through his mouth, but through his living. His actions.

IOW, just as St. Francis (did in fact) put it–sometimes Christ had to use words–to explain what he was DOING.

As for the Mass/Homily–perhaps to your protestant upbringing, dignified, reserved, and humble = boring, unpassionate, and uninspired. To the Catholic mind, noisy, loud, boisterous and preachy, is un-humble vanity, which could easily be confused with attention seeking histrionics.

…and that is a much greater turn off to the Catholic mind, than ;dryness’ or ‘boredom’.

Maybe the priests you’ve had this experience with, are erring on the side of caution, so as not to draw attention to themselves…and away from the altar.

Wow… it’s amazing that when ppl get defensive they completely ignore what the other is saying.
I never said anything about being “bored” or not entertained enough. What nonsense… Im talking about saving souls through the clear presentation of the gospel.

Secondly, I cannot prove that St Francis didnt say that… any more than you can prove Abraham Lincoln didnt say it. It’s impossible. Therefore, since you are claiming that he did say it the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. Please provide a primary source showing that he indeed did say it. Such as in HIS writtings, not what others wrote about what they “heard he said”.

 

[Amandil]

“Your tone belies your words.”
There is no tone… that’s the problem with texting/forums.

“I think that it’d be more prudent to worry about yourself instead of worrying overmuch about someone else’s spiritual state.”
If this was true Jesus would not have given us the great commission.

The great commission was to make disciples and baptize in the name of the Trinity.

Those Catholics in Mass have already been made disciples and have already been baptized in the name of the Trinity.

By calling them “lost” you are presuming to judge your brothers and sisters in Christ. That is a dangerous assumption and not what the great commission was intended for.

“If people are baptized and attending Mass and receiving the Eucharist according to the dictates of the Church, they are saved by virtue of Christ’s covenant.”
Many ppl are baptized, and attend Mass and even receive the Eucharist and know NOTHING of following Christ. And they will reap God’s wrath… 1 Corinthians 11:27-32

You cannot possibly know that with any certainty. In any case, you’re not reading my words.

The Church simply does not teach that if one is baptized and goes to Mass they are saved. Why do you make that assumption ? Where have you heard this ?

I didn’t say anything like what you’re claiming I said.

I suggest you go back and read it again.

 

[Goya]

CreekCrawler;11740784]

To your first point, if you leave the lost to learn of the gospel through the liturgy of the Word, then they will never learn it. Or, if they did they would have to come to each Mass and take notes over the course of a year… then piece it together. Not exactly how the Apostles evangelized.
As others have said, the Liturgy is to feed Christians, not the lost. So my question is WHEN DO WE FEED THE LOST ? And why do we assume there is none lost in the pews next to us ?..

Interesting point. The word ‘Mass’ comes from the latin word ‘missa’–ite missa est–‘you are dismissed’. More coloquially, you are sent. On mission. Go, and bring what you have received, into the world… We are sent forth, to ‘evangelize’.

Even ‘the lost’ in the pews, are called to essentially put aside their ‘lostness’, their weakensses, their confusion, etc.–and live the Gospel.

That’s ‘why’.

FWIW.

 

[Goya]

CreekCrawler;11740843]

Wow… it’s amazing that when ppl get defensive they completely ignore what the other is saying.
I never said anything about being “bored” or not entertained enough. What nonsense… Im talking about saving souls through the clear presentation of the gospel.

Not defensive; just adding perspective. (Frankly, seems to me you’re the one being defensive).

Secondly, I cannot prove that St Francis didnt say that… any more than you can prove Abraham Lincoln didnt say it. It’s impossible. Therefore, since you are claiming that he did say it the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. Please provide a primary source showing that he indeed did say it. Such as in HIS writtings, not what others wrote about what they "heard he said".

By your standard, you haven’t a clue what Jesus Christ ever actually said.

 

[Amandil]

Secondly, if Pope Francis said that I have to disagree. Many Protestants absolutely love and follow Christ.

Sadly, no. Many protestants don’t follow Christ. They follow a caricature of Christ; an idol made after their own image and likeness, not the true Christ.

 

[TK421]

I find myself in a little bit of a dilemma… You see, I am a recent convert from Protestantism. I converted and was baptized and confirmed last may. So I freely admit that my views in this post could easily be skewed by the simple fact that I don’t have much experience in the CC.

First of all, I love the Catholic Church. It is absolutely beautiful, the liturgy is amazing. I spent the time in mass yesterday finding myself wiping tears from my eyes, simply struck by the presence of God and the beauty of The Church, ( along with the reality of my own sin and feeling unworthy yet grateful to be there. )
Yet, I can’t help but feel something is missing… Something that belongs and yet isn’t there. At least in the few parishes that I frequent. Yet, from listening to Catholic radio ( XM and AM ) I feel like it must be Church wide. What is it ? Passionate preaching of the gospel… Where is it ? Every single time I go to Mass, regardless of the parish, when it comes time for the homily, the priest pulls out his pre-written sermon and reads word for word… This week it was an essay on why the death penalty is wrong. Seriously ? How DRY !!!

Now obviously Protestantism is missing its share of truth… Or I wouldn’t have left it. But let me tell you one thing many of them get right: their passionate preaching of the gospel ( as they see it ) and their love for the lost, which is why they just can’t stop preaching it.

I just don’t get it. There is a certain percentage of people occupying those parish pews that are lost ! Some of which are cradle “Catholics” ! And we are listening to a homily on political issues ? Who cares ?!
I feel the same way EVERY time I turn on Catholic radio, with the exception to catholic answers. If I turn on the radio, I promise you there is an 80-90 percent chance they are talking about either abortion, contraception or marriage. All day every day… All while countless ppl within the listening area are dying without knowing our Lord. It just drives me nuts !
When I listen to Protestant pastors on YouTube, such as Francis Chan, etc. it is like rain in the desert… Absolutely refreshing! Just listen to one of his sermons and see if you disagree… Try Lukewarm and loving it… m.youtube.com/watch?v=z227Trx0r3w
Now obviously me and these ppl would disagree on some theological points, but they love God in an intense way, and they are our brothers and sisters in Christ… And quite frankly most Catholics could learn something from them.

Anyway, I guess I’m just ranting. I could go on and on about this… But for now I’ll wait for some responses.
Take it easy on me

Edited to remove the word " c-r-a-p ", as it showed up as **** and looked bad.

At the parish I attend there is the priest and then the two deacons that give homilies. I am fortunate to be able to say that the priest and the one deacon both give very good, fairly eloquent, inspiring homilies, and all three of them give homilies that are devout and not cowardly. You will - though not excessively - hear the words “sin”, “Hell”, and as of recently, “Confession” brought up from the pulpit. It is a small wonder that the parish I’m going to is growing, and the Catholic school associated to it is currently undergoing an expansion project. So for my entry into the Church, I have been blessed with a parish that possesses fire.

That being said, you’re not the only one that I have seen lament about rote, boring homilies.

1. Some of the cause for this within the Church is the same decay that is creeping within American protestantism. There are preachers that seem to think that if they give orthodox homilies, their parish support will crumble. Anecdotal evidence says absolutely everything to the contrary: Episcopalian, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, and other liberalized churches are all waning. Impassioned evangelical churches are all waxing. American Catholicism seems to be treading water, because it’s hit and miss. That doesn’t mean those evangelical churches do not contain errors that compromise them, but the very clear reality is that turning a church into a quasi-secular institution that occasionally tosses the word “Jesus” into the mix does not maintain active participation. On top of that, it dumbs down the parishioners. There are far more effective avenues to catechize Catholics than through a homily, as has been mentioned here, but we’re fooling ourselves if we pretend the content of homilies don’t play a large part in this.
2. That being said, it may be inevitable that the Catholic Church is not going to compete with the richness of the rhetoric you can find in some protestant congregations. The reason being that the meat & potatoes of a protestant services are in the sermon, so an enormous amount of energy is invested into it, both on a personal level and at protestant colleges & seminaries. The Catholic Mass is instead a blend of prayer, contrition, thanksgiving, singing, the Homily, and the Eucharist itself. Of course, a priest that is a talented preacher is still a wonderful boon, but the Mass doesn’t hinge upon the homily in the way almost all protestant services hinge upon the sermon.
3. The trade-off to the rich rhetoric of some protestant preachers is that they are more susceptible to going off into diatribes. The Catholic Mass, while not immune to that, is more resistant to this and instead the priest’s homily is suppose to be reflecting upon the gospel reading.
4. If you still want more, then seek it out. Unless you’re going to a tiny country parish, there should be programs, groups, & retreats that you can get involved in.

 

[CreekCrawler]

CreekCrawler;11740843]

Not defensive; just adding perspective. (Frankly, seems to me you’re the one being defensive).
By your standard, you haven’t a clue what Jesus Christ ever actually said.

That’s true. I can’t prove it… but I place my faith in the Church He founded, and in the councils in which they decided upon the canon of scripture. The Church has never declared St. Francis actually said that.

 

[CreekCrawler]

At the parish I attend there is the priest and then the two deacons that give homilies. I am fortunate to be able to say that the priest and the one deacon both give very good, fairly eloquent, inspiring homilies, and all three of them give homilies that are devout and not cowardly. You will - though not excessively - hear the words “sin”, “Hell”, and as of recently, “Confession” brought up from the pulpit. It is a small wonder that the parish I’m going to is growing, and the Catholic school associated to it is currently undergoing an expansion project. So for my entry into the Church, I have been blessed with a parish that possesses fire.

That being said, you’re not the only one that I have seen lament about rote, boring homilies.

1. Some of the cause for this within the Church is the same decay that is creeping within American protestantism. There are preachers that seem to think that if they give orthodox homilies, their parish support will crumble. Anecdotal evidence says absolutely everything to the contrary: Episcopalian, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, and other liberalized churches are all waning. Impassioned evangelical churches are all waxing. American Catholicism seems to be treading water, because it’s hit and miss. That doesn’t mean those evangelical churches do not contain errors that compromise them, but the very clear reality is that turning a church into a quasi-secular institution that occasionally tosses the word “Jesus” into the mix does not maintain active participation. On top of that, it dumbs down the parishioners. There are far more effective avenues to catechize Catholics than through a homily, as has been mentioned here, but we’re fooling ourselves if we pretend the content of homilies don’t play a large part in this.
2. That being said, it may be inevitable that the Catholic Church is not going to compete with the richness of the rhetoric you can find in some protestant congregations. The reason being that the meat & potatoes of a protestant services are in the sermon, so an enormous amount of energy is invested into it, both on a personal level and at protestant colleges & seminaries. The Catholic Mass is instead a blend of prayer, contrition, thanksgiving, singing, the Homily, and the Eucharist itself. Of course, a priest that is a talented preacher is still a wonderful boon, but the Mass doesn’t hinge upon the homily in the way almost all protestant services hinge upon the sermon.
3. The trade-off to the rich rhetoric of some protestant preachers is that they are more susceptible to going off into diatribes. The Catholic Mass, while not immune to that, is more resistant to this and instead the priest’s homily is suppose to be reflecting upon the gospel reading.
4. If you still want more, then seek it out. Unless you’re going to a tiny country parish, there should be programs, groups, & retreats that you can get involved in.

Good points I guess… but again, Im not looking for rhetoric. Im looking for the gospel.
And to your 4th point… I do seek it out. I’m not worried about me. I’m worried about the lost.

 

[catholictiger]

I find myself in a little bit of a dilemma… You see, I am a recent convert from Protestantism. I converted and was baptized and confirmed last may. So I freely admit that my views in this post could easily be skewed by the simple fact that I don’t have much experience in the CC.

First of all, I love the Catholic Church. It is absolutely beautiful, the liturgy is amazing. I spent the time in mass yesterday finding myself wiping tears from my eyes, simply struck by the presence of God and the beauty of The Church, ( along with the reality of my own sin and feeling unworthy yet grateful to be there. )
Yet, I can’t help but feel something is missing… Something that belongs and yet isn’t there. At least in the few parishes that I frequent. Yet, from listening to Catholic radio ( XM and AM ) I feel like it must be Church wide. What is it ? Passionate preaching of the gospel… Where is it ? Every single time I go to Mass, regardless of the parish, when it comes time for the homily, the priest pulls out his pre-written sermon and reads word for word… This week it was an essay on why the death penalty is wrong. Seriously ? How DRY !!!

Now obviously Protestantism is missing its share of truth… Or I wouldn’t have left it. But let me tell you one thing many of them get right: their passionate preaching of the gospel ( as they see it ) and their love for the lost, which is why they just can’t stop preaching it.

I just don’t get it. There is a certain percentage of people occupying those parish pews that are lost ! Some of which are cradle “Catholics” ! And we are listening to a homily on political issues ? Who cares ?!
I feel the same way EVERY time I turn on Catholic radio, with the exception to catholic answers. If I turn on the radio, I promise you there is an 80-90 percent chance they are talking about either abortion, contraception or marriage. All day every day… All while countless ppl within the listening area are dying without knowing our Lord. It just drives me nuts !
When I listen to Protestant pastors on YouTube, such as Francis Chan, etc. it is like rain in the desert… Absolutely refreshing! Just listen to one of his sermons and see if you disagree… Try Lukewarm and loving it… m.youtube.com/watch?v=z227Trx0r3w
Now obviously me and these ppl would disagree on some theological points, but they love God in an intense way, and they are our brothers and sisters in Christ… And quite frankly most Catholics could learn something from them.

Anyway, I guess I’m just ranting. I could go on and on about this… But for now I’ll wait for some responses.
Take it easy on me

Edited to remove the word " c-r-a-p ", as it showed up as **** and looked bad.

I think many people would be in agreement with you, to often people in the Church forget the power and beauty of the scriptures and they get to tied up in just trying to tell the truth instead of teaching it.

The Majority of the stuff that the Church teaches can somehow in someway be brought out by a good exploitation of the scripture. Even something that isn’t explicitly found in scripture can be explained by just looking at the Scripture. Now we need the authority of the Church to know the validity of certain interpretations and to tie it together with the tradition, but many teachings can be explained by looking at certain things in the Bible.

Abortion is wrong because God shows us in the scripture that 1) Murder is wrong 2) God formed you in the womb (showing life begins at conception), therefore from these two simple points we know that abortion, which kills an innocent human being which I think most people would agree with is murder, is against God’s law.

Contraception: Genesis 38:9 actually if you explain the passage in the context of how the Jews would understand it, purposefully spilling your seed on the ground (this is what the text says) was punishable by death. So it is very clear from Genesis 38:9 that God looked very very lowly on you purposefully withholding your seed. I think you would amaze and maybe convince a lot of people that from the beginning God did not approve of contraceptive. He killed someone for doing it.

my whole point is we as Catholics need to go back to the scriptures. This does fall a lot on the priests but the lay faithful have the obligation too. As you said Catholic Radio falls into the trap to.

Yes I understand that we aren’t sola scriptua but read up on what the Church has to say about the scriptures I would say that the Church has more reverence and respect of the Bible than sola scriptua Christians. The only thing is that the people who teach and preach the faith aren’t showing this deep reverence the Church has for the scriptures.

 

[YADA]

Seriously, to everyone who has replied along the lines of the Mass being for the Christians to worship Christ and be fed… When do we fulfill the great commission ? Who is preaching the gospel to the lost ?

I mean, you all have some good points. And I see now that perhaps the Catholic assumes most people attending Mass are already members of the Church. Okay, great. Now what ?

Well … I know many priests and many of them are wonderful inspiring homilists … not sure why you think the preaching is so much better on the other side by the way - I am not a cradle catholic and experienced many preachers from the bible - evangelical charismatic types to mainline Protestants … and I have family addicted to the TV evangelist types who make their living off being all that you desire …

You did not respond to my earlier post about the differences in focus and the number of times per week … of well

So to your “now what?” question … the homilies that touch on marriage, abortion and in fact all life issues are how we put the Good News that is Jesus Christ into action … building up the family makes for strong communities that help each other …

Loving people who respect life fro conception to natural death are less like to kill each other … lets face it - if a mother can kill her own child in the womb - then there is no reason to not hurt the person living next door or in the next country …

Jesus did not go around telling people he was a wonderful guy and saying look at me … He said to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, care for the sick, give drink to the thirsty … in other words - go out and make the world a better place …

Now I would argue that the Catholic Church has been doing that for 2000 years and continues to do that better then any organization or government … We feed more people, house more people, educate more people, provide medical care for more people then any other organization in the word today … and a host of other things like working with prisoners, those suffering from addiction and even those dying with no one to care …

He also told them to “sin no more” and the scriptures tell us to repent … to be perfect as our Father in heaven is prefect … Paul tell us to stay the course to not run the race in vain … there is no once saved always saved message … though we cannot work our way to heaven and Jesus is our salvation and our hope - our works are what speaks to our faith in action and we will be held to account …

Personally - I do not find the Mass lacking in anything … it centers my week and my life and provides a welcome nourishment to mind and body. … I am sorry you feel differently … Join in to various informational presentations and lectures - outside of Mass for what you seek …

At Mass - try focusing less on the delivery and more on the content - less on the entertaining or engaging style and more on the message … - you might see things differently … I hope and pray that you do

 

[Amandil]

It’s your use of the word “lost” in describing Catholics in the pews at Mass objectionable.

No one is “lost” until death.

There may be mistaken people. There may be people who have heterodox opinions(frankly like yourself IMHO).

There may even be outright informal heretics.

None of that means that they are “lost”. And I think that your use of that term is wrong.

 

[CreekCrawler]

At Mass - try focusing less on the delivery and more on the content - less on the entertaining or engaging style and more on the message … - you might see things differently … I hope and pray that you do

:banghead:
lol, thanks for the reply.