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Reformed
Guest
Some Roman Catholics on this site tell me that the Catholic Church gave us the New Testament. If that’s true, who gave us the Old Testament?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Jews gave us Old Testament. However, they lost their authority when they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. He took Jewish authority away and gave that authority to his twelve Apostle. The Apostles in turn when they pass away handed down their authority to the bishops of today.
I accept the Christian Canon over the Jewish Council in Jamnia which rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Second, not all Jews accepted the Jamnia Council as valid because the Ethiopian Jews have include the Septuagint in their Scripture.
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Reformed
Guest
Please don’t be afraid of the Holy Scriptures. You don’t have to believe in Sola Scriptura to read the Holy Bible. Don’t worry, you won’t be changed into a Protestant by reading Galatians tonight. Just pray and ask God to teach you before you read Galatians tonight.
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Reformed
Guest
Really, is that the official Roman Catholic position in regards to the Old Testament?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I am not afraid of Holy Scripture. I have search for the truth 2 yrs ago and investigated the claims of the Catholic Church. I found the Catholic Church to be true. During my research, I came very close of becoming Eastern Orthodox but the setback was Primacy of Peter. The EO did not have the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus only gave the keys to Peter. This Petrine Authority is routed in Scripture and Tradition. Second, St. Peter warns about self-interpreting Scripture in his Letters.
Peter wrote:
2 Peter 3:15-18:
If the Scriptures were self-interpreting, Peter would not make such warning. If you claim, I do fear Scripture, why do you think I bother quoting Scripture to refute the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which is none other than the Martin Luther’s invention.
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Mannyfit75
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The Church is the New People of God. The Catholic Church believes the the Jews are still the chosen people of God but they lost their authority.
They do not even have Temple or Pharisees or Sadducees who spoke with so great authority in their times.
Jesus took their teaching authority from the Pharisees and gave it to the Apostles and their successors.
The destruction of the Temple shows proves this.
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Reformed
Guest
Since the Catholic Church believes the Jews are still the chosen people of God, does the Catholic Church believe Jews are saved apart from faith in Christ?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Let me quote the Catechism.
Since the Catholic Church believes the Jews are still the chosen people of God, does the Catholic Church believe Jews are saved apart from faith in Christ?
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839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
IN ADDITION:
Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, **through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.**337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#847
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churchcamefirst
Guest
Luther started the Reformation. Wyclif, Tyndale, Calvin, all heretics.
BTW Reformed, what exactly are you protesting? To divorce oneself from the Catholic church and to reject the church Christ established makes you a Protestant. What are you protesting? Do you even know?
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palmas85
Guest
Indulgences are no longer being sold which was an aberration of those times. It was corrected. Priests and Sisters still cannot marry and when they enter into religious life they are well aware of that fact.
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Peter_J
Guest
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Reformed
Guest
Sure, I am protesting Rome’s way of salvation through the sacraments. It is not the bibilcal gospel of God’s grace. Thanks for asking. Within the bibilcal gospel, Rome’s biggest error is the rejection of the doctrine of justification through faith. I agree with Luther that this is the article which the church stands or fall.
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Reformed
Guest
I thought Rome never changes Her doctrines? I thought indulgences is a declared doctrine practiced today too.
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Contarini
Guest
The “selling” of indulgences was never a doctrine.
Also, just because Rome claims not to change doctrine doesn’t mean that the claim is true. I’m baffled as to why someone who rejects much Catholic teaching would accept this particular claim so uncritically.
It is. You are confusing indulgences with the “selling” of indulgences. Furthermore, it seems to me that they have quietly backed away from the implications of the “treasury of merits” language, though of course many Catholics will claim otherwise (see the preceding paragraph).
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
Why is that relevant? This is an unworthy argument, along the lines of the secularist “there are a bunch of religions all claiming to be true, so they must all be false.” The question is whether either of these claims is true. The fact that they both exist does not tell us anything about the truth of either of them, although of course it does tell us that they can’t both be true.
Edwin
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Peter_J
Guest
Good point, Edwin. If you don’t believe that the RCC is the One True Church, it doesn’t make much sense to believe that the RCC’s teaching will never change.
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Timothysis
Guest
Jesus gave us the sacraments as a way of bestowing grace to the world. Baptism, confirmation, penance and the Holy Eucharist are the means of salvation that Christ gave us. How can one be justified through faith alone if not baptised? Even Christ submitted Himself to baptism and told Nicodemus that unless one was “born again” of water and the SPIRIT (not faith) then you cannot have eternal life.
The gospel of John records specifically that Christ said “my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink; he that eats my body and drinks my blood has everlasting life; and I will raise him on the last day.” He didn’t say “he that has faith I will raise on the last day.” The sacraments bestow a real and actual grace, not the passive take-it-if-you-want-it idea of grace by Martin Luther.
Odd, too, is the fact that noone EVER taught justification through faith alone for 3/4 of the history of Christianity. And before you try to throw St. Paul at me, remember that Paul also spoke of the seriousness of receiving the eucharist unworthily. Why would he worry about it if it wasn’t of a serious nature?
Having said all of that, I do think that Christ can bestow His grace anyway and anyhow He likes. The Church is bound by Christ but Christ is not bound by the Church. However, it is very hard to argue that Christ did NOT establish a Church with a true authority and the sacraments as a way of salvation. I always thought it more than humorous that Martin Luther was so cocksure of himself in his opposition to the Church, but was shocked when John Calvin and other protestant “theologians” disagreed with his own beliefs. I guess he realized the can of worms he opened.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Catholic Church way of salvations has its foundation on Jesus Christ. He instituted the Sacraments, Seven of the Sacraments. Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Confession, Holy Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Annointing the Sick.
- Baptism is to fullfill Jesus command to the Apostles when he told them to “Baptise them, in the Name of the Father, And of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit.”
- Confirmation is receiving the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:5-6, Eph. 1:13, Eph. 4:30, Heb. 6:2, John 6:27, and Rev. 9:4 all support Confirmation. This is a seal marked on our heads.
- Marriage is a Sacrament founded by God. It is founded in Genesis when created male and female. The two shall become one flesh. Marriage is sacred and Holy.
- Holy Orders is priesthood. Priests are ordained by bishops, and bishops are the successors of the Apostles. Jesus gave his authority to his Apostles, and when they pass away, they handed down the faith to their successors.
- Annointing the Sick. Mark 6:13 shows Apostles healing the sick with oil. James 5:14, “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.”
- Eucharist: Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus says, this IS my body and blood. Jesus does not say, this is a symbol of my body and blood.
1 Cor. 11:24 - the same translation is used by Paul - “touto mou estin to soma.” The statement is “this is really” my body and blood. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever declare something without making it so.
Confession: John 20:21 Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins.
Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?
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Reformed
Guest
LOL…you guys are soo Catholic.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
We are. We stand firm to what we believe. We affirm that the Word of God is not only in Sacred Scripture but also in Sacred Tradition. I like to add that I cannot intercept these properly unless I try to view these in Teaching Office of the Church aka Magisterium.
As the Catechism says in the following paragraphs:
107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72
108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”. 73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74
We never separate the Bible and Sacred Tradition. The Bible is the product of the Living Sacred Tradition of the Church.
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