What Changes Would You Make To The NO Mass ?

[Magnum_V8]

(9) The Our Father ends with “and deliver us from evil.” If you want the rest, you know what church to attend.

Forgot about that one; add it to my list.

EDIT: How could I forget? – “Which will be shed for you and for MANY.”

 

[MrS]

Show me a N O Mass that is done correctly, as intended, without all the inovations…

and

I probably would make no changes.

 

[Sure]

You bring up a good point, but I just mentioned that the tabernacle should be front and center because I prefer the priest to face It. And, of course, I want to see the priest front and center rather than in a side chapel or grotto.

Personally, for me, I spend most of my time at Mass looking at the tabernacle, adoring the hidden Blessed Sacrament.

Yes, the Apostles received it in their hands. We are not representative of the Apostles; the priests are. Therefore, it is fully agreeable that the priests can have it in their hand. We, on the other hand, are not ordained ministers.

I have to confess that my judgment call on the EMHC’s is based on personal perspective, being part of a church where only 30-40 people attend Sunday Mass. An EMHC is not necessary there. I guess my opinion would be different for a largely attended parish that housed only one priest. But, even then, the EMHC should be very well trained, and totally reverent.

I agree that the most important thing is for all present to have a most reverent and respectful disposition. But why is this disposition so prevalent in Tridentine Masses and lacking considerably in so many Novus Ordo Masses?

Just a quick note, the focus of the Mass is the sacrifice on the altar not the tabernacle. There are many cathedrals and basilicas that have the Blessed Sacrament in another side chapel because during the Mass, the tabernacle should not be a focal point, rather the Body and Blood of Christ made present before us.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I agree with everything you said, except completely forbid altar girls in all instances, there’s no age limit on altar servers that I know of. Also, young men and boys can be persuaded to be altar servers, they just need some encouragement, that’s all.

NO WOMEN AT THE ALTAR

 

[KathleenElsie]

This is what I want to see:
atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html

Oh yes please. :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

 

[bpbasilphx]

<>

Every “traditional hymn” was at its introduction UNtraditional and innovative.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Just a quick note, the focus of the Mass is the sacrifice on the altar not the tabernacle. There are many cathedrals and basilicas that have the Blessed Sacrament in another side chapel because during the Mass, the tabernacle should not be a focal point, rather the Body and Blood of Christ made present before us.

The Body and Blood is already present in the tabernacle.

I understand what you’re saying, but, I can’t help it. When I know that Dominus meus et Deus meus (my Lord and my God) is present behind that little door, I feel fixated on it. Yes, the Sacrifice is beautiful, but so is the Real and Substantial presence of our Lord, already present in the tabernacle.

Don’t confuse what I’m saying though, I completely understand what the Mass is about, and truthfully, from the Offertory to the end, I’m in awe of the Sacrifice.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Oh yes please. :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

I think it is perfect for those of us with a love for the vernacular, but want all the pomp, circumstance, majesty, reverence, and ritual of Tradition.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

OK
(4) I WANT THE LAST GOSPEL IN EVERY MASS! This is non-negotiable.

Explain…
I am a child of V2

 

[Pious_Mat]

Yes, the Apostles received it in their hands. We are not representative of the Apostles; the priests are. Therefore, it is fully agreeable that the priests can have it in their hand. We, on the other hand, are not ordained ministers. QUOTE]

Well said. However, It must be said that although communion in the hand was communion during the first two centuries of the Church, it must also be said the since Sacred Tradition is a source of Divine Revelation, the trend toward communion on the tongue only from about the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great onward is an excellent of example of the Holy Spirit leading us, through tradition, to a logically and philsophically sound principle. If every particle of the host is all of Jesus, shouldn’t we be concerned about even the slightest possibility of the host fragmenting, or particles being lost? Doesn’t the priest’s hand-EMHC’s hand-parishioner’s hand-parishioner’s tongue formula provde a dangerous number of opportunites for this to happen? Even the priest-parishioner’s tongue formula can lead to some particles being lost–that’s why in the TLM, the altar boy holds a patent under one’s chin when receiving.

That said, communion in the hand is not only a blatant disregard of the nature of the Real Presence, but also a de-volution of Sacred Tradition.

And by-the-by, the official rule for the use of EMHCs is that they are only to be used when the mass would be “greatly delayed.” In the past, some Bishops took this to mean by at least 30 minutes.

But as to the task at hand:

What would I change about the NO? I think that all the changes I want have been mentioned, and then some. One thing I would like to see is the asperges rite more often, as it is a great blessing, and the use of the cope during it. I would also like to the see the maniple brought back, and the amice made mandatory. Also, many priests do not say vesting prayers. These ought be made mandatory in the NO if they aren’t already, and it should be clearly stated.

Regardless of what becomes the NO mass, I would just like to see it standardized. No ambiguity, no “you can do X, Y, or Z,” just “This is how the mass is said, and if you want to write your own mass, do it somewhere else.” My great wish for the liturgy is specific rubrics.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Explain…
I am a child of V2

At the end of the Tridentine Mass, the Last Gospel is read after the final blessing. Its the beginning of St. John’s gospel. It never changes, and is read silently. The rubrics are the same for the regular gospel reading: sign of the cross on the forehead, lips and breast, “glory to you, O Lord (gloria tibi, Domine)”, “praise to you, O Lord Jesus Christ (laus tibi, Christe).” Everyone genuflects at “the Word became Flesh, and dwelt among us.”

 

[Magnum_V8]

Mat,

You got me thinking. When the priest receives the species of bread, afterwards he rubs his fingers together over the chalice so that even the smallest particle is not lost. What are those that receive in the hand supposed to do?

 

[joelacour]

Explain…
I am a child of V2

The beginning of the Gospel According to John. 1:1-14.

The Last Gospel was removed in 1965 with the introduction of the Hybrid (Transitional) Mass. The Last Gospel was the last official prayer at the Mass, after the Ite Missa est, and the Blessing.

It reminds me of who we are, who He is, and why we are here.

Get an older translation, not one of the newer ones. The sheer poetry of the Evangelist on describing the Redeemer is something we need to be reminded of weekly (daily!), not once a year.

We genuflect at “Et Verbum Caro Factum Est” (And the Word was made Flesh).

 

[georgewithfaith]

Listen to EWTN’s morning mass I think that would be a good place to start. They have a good mix of English and Latin and the music is good. They talk about the Saint of the day and they say the prayer to St. Michael after the final blessing. I wonder if Pope Leo who instituted this prayer because of a conversation he heard between Jesus and the Devil in which the Devil asked for 100 years to corrupt the world and Jesus said ok and Pope Leo saw a vision of the world we live in today. Maybe he can say some prayers for us because we need them.

A tridentine Mass in Latin probably will not work but this sort of Mass keeping some Latin and translating other parts into the literal English meaning would work. The prayers and devotion in the Tridentine Mass translated into Englisih are much more appropriate in praising our Lord. We are atone for our sins and praise the Lord for his mercy. It is not a community meal where everyone is having fun. Also, the priests need to give homilies that reflect church teaching. We cannot just be given good news. We also need to be reminded of the things we don’t always want to hear about such as mortal sins and consequences of committing them. Also we need to hear more about Mary, the Saints and Angels.

 

[Caesar]

The beginning of the Gospel According to John. 1:1-14.

The Last Gospel was removed in 1965 with the introduction of the Hybrid (Transitional) Mass. The Last Gospel was the last official prayer at the Mass, after the Ite Missa est, and the Blessing.

It reminds me of who we are, who He is, and why we are here.

Get an older translation, not one of the newer ones. The sheer poetry of the Evangelist on describing the Redeemer is something we need to be reminded of weekly (daily!), not once a year.

We genuflect at “Et Verbum Caro Factum Est” (And the Word was made Flesh).

The Last Gospel originated as part of the post-Mass ceremonies in the sacristy.

 

[CapaxDei]

One I would make is to forbid anouncements during the collection.
My parish priests say the NO with reverence, but during the collection, the lectors make anouncements from the bulletin. I’ve noticed it at other NO parishes as well. I feel it takes the faithfuls’ attention away from the mass itself.

You mean during the Offertory? How bizarre.

 

[mpb74]

I’ve just returned to the Church, in fact I went to my first Mass in years last Saturday evening. I had to work on Sunday. It’s held in a school gym and it didn’t really feel sacred, but it is the congregating of the faithful. I guess that is the truly important part.

As for theology and tradition, I only have what I’ve gathered here over the last few weeks. And that ain’t much. So I don’t know what could be justifiably changed.

When I was a young boy I used to enjoy the folk masses. They were really cool man. I remember we used to sing “Kumbaya, My Lord, Kumbaya” and a song or two from Godspell. I think one was “Day By Day My Lord, Day By Day”. The Nuns didn’t seem to like it too much though, When we went to school on Monday they used to say our parents should take us to a proper Mass. My Dad and my Mom, didn’t like it much either, so they would send me to the Folk Mass downstairs while they went to Mass in the main Church.

 

[traditio88]

is this a joke? can’t tell… otherwise, if it’s not, kinda questionable comment, wouldn’t you say?

it was more of an over-the-top way (I don’t like the word “joke”) of saying which mass I prefer. don’t read into it too much

 

[Rabbititus]

I’ve said in other threads what I would like to see happen - which is to basically make it more obvious that the OF is a streamlined version of the EF. This would be largely accomplished by restoring parts of prayers that were removed, so it would involve:

Making the rite of sprinkling outside of mass, rather than a substitute for the penetential rite.

Making Penetential rite A the only one, and restoring the old Confiteor with the specific saints.

Restoring the ninefold Kyrie

Removing the option to omit “bracketed texts” durring the readings. I find that sooo annoying.

Restoring the old offertory prayers

Making the Roman Canon (without the memorial acclimation) the only Eucharistic Prayer. No more option to cut out Saint names.

Restoring the old “ending” to the Lord’s Prayer, which didn’t have “For the Kingdom, the power…”

Mandate that the proper introit, collection, and communion chants be used for at least the principle mass on Sundays. Perhaps also mandating that the ordinary be in Latin for this mass.

Making the English translation more traditional sounding - perhaps having “modern” and “traditional” English options. Like maybe having the RSV CE for the modern English readings and the D-R for traditional. The translations would both still be as accurate as possible (i.e. “and with your spirit” in the “modern mass,” rather than “and also with you”).

I don’t think these are “major overhaul” suggestions and don’t make the NO unrecognizeable, or somthing it is not…so I think most congregations won’t meet most of these with a lot of resistance.

 

[AJV]

The editio typica tertia is actually quite good. There are even opportunties for Votive Masses that could not be said in the Traditional liturgy. It’s even restored some parts of of an old, and lovely Mass, Egredimini (but changed form addressing the Son to the Father) for the Sacred Heart which I love. And it’s moved in a more Traditional direction from the editio typica altera by reintroducing the Holy Name of Jesus, Mary, a reference to the Sorrowful Compassion in the style of a NO missal commemoration on the Friday in Lent V, the newer saints, assigning prayers Super Populum for all the Masses in Lent (previously, all at the end and it was ad libitum) , harmonising the sanctorale Propers with those of the Graduale.

Restore Placeat tibi at the end (but after the blessing) and Aufer a nobis (before the kissing) at the beginning

Remove the option for the other pentiential rites except the Confiteor. Keep the option for replacing with the blessing of water but some different prayers. Permit addition of local saints and saints mentioned in the Mass of the day into the Confiteor, or at least, into the priest’s version. Allow Tropes for the Kyrie but print them and assign them like how the prefaces and blessings are, to various categories of saints or Sundays…

Prayers of the Faiththful- use the ones given in the missal. Possibility of adding only one or two intentions for grave need.

Keep that option that hymns can be sung (last resort), but if they are then the Proper Introit and Communion antiphons must be recited afterward. Restore the Offertory antiphon for this purpose.

Get rid of that rubric that allows “other suitable ------texts” to be used for the weekdays and commons, allowing the etxts to be jumbled up.

Prescribe which Common Mass exactly is to be used for each saint (e.g. Common of Virgins V) but make an allowance for occasions of extra solemnity for the priest to choose.

Re: the Propers, I’m a bit mixed. Some of them had good reasons behind them.

Restore the psalm Iudica Me but it would be recited on the way to the altar, or in the sacristy, with the final antiphon at the foot of the altar. Likewsie for the Last Gospel.

Tweak the embolism of the Our Father.

Keep the Roman Canon, have anther option in which the prayers are arranged in a different order but it is essentially the same wording of the Canon. Permit the addition of local martyrs into the Canon in both lists. Maybe have just one more like EP III for weekdays only. Possibly also retain the Latin over the vernacular for the Qui Pridie

Severely restrict EMHC’s, who’s allowed to touch the vessels.

Mandate a reverent sharing of the sign of peace in places where they shake hands. Maybe clasped the hands. Or reintroduce the pax-brede though that would take of LOT of time.

The Offertory. In view of the NO tendency to avoid anticipation, perhaps model the new prayers on the Ambrosian ones like was one of the ideas at the time of the Concilium.

Re-write the rubrics.

Cut down on a lot of the options. Perhaps by restricting certain Masses to certain seasons.

Give greater encouragement to the institution of permanent acolytes and lectors.

Then i might fiddle around with some of the Concilium’s other ideas like incensing people at the beginning.